Fighting Defintions

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Fighting Defintions

Postby Winfang » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:50 am

People are using names for shots that I know, but don't know the name. Does someone have a list of shots and a brief description of them?
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Derian » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:56 pm

I've been wondering the same thing. There's a few I've seen mentioned that I believe I've figured out, but I'm not 100% sure. We should get a list going regardless.

Pictures or videos help.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby p_quick » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:16 pm

which terms are you unsure of?
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Winfang » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:49 pm

Darkside is one that I'm pretty clueless on. Pocket Stab is another, although I'm pretty sure I know what this is. High-cross and short-cross are thrown around like crazy and I swear half the people using them couldn't tell the difference between the two. These are just two off the top of my head.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Slagar » Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:57 pm

Darkside is pretty much the only one I don't get. If you want to see the difference between a high cross and a short cross, it's very briefly mentioned early in P-quick's training vids from Closer. He tells Bo to throw a high cross, and Bo throws a short, then corrects himself. He exaggerates the high cross for effect, but you'll get the idea. I've no idea what the hell a Darkside is, though, and would be intersted to see it.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby varadin » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:09 pm

how about we turn this into a list style set up for anyone who is wondering. Like this

Flat snap- A basic shot, your arm extends in a flat motion towards the left side of their body

High cross- A shot targeted at the opposite side of your target, aimed at the chest. Arm breaks across your body and your elbow breaks high above your shoulder allowing you to fit in the slot between the weapon guard and the enemies shield

ext ext...

Now Im bad at this but it would be nice to get something like this stickied so that new fighters to the forums or vets who use different terms (darkside/offside) get this down.

Personally im more confused when people say darkside meaning the backside of the blade and then some say darkside meaning opponents sword side.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Derian » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:14 pm

Pocket stab is where you come in with an overhead stab aimed for collarbone/upper chest/armpit. If you watch my sparring videos, it's about the only stab I throw, and I couldn't get it to land against Gorlock because I'm a scrub.

To add to the list, I've seen Doom Loops thrown around a few times, and I think it's essentially just a big * wide circle that precedes a shot, sort of to build up momentum, but I'm not positive. Any help?
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Brennon EH » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:17 pm

The Darkside is a whole maneuver rather than simply a shot, and is generally performed as follows:

1. Start left foot forward shield stance, just outside of your opponents range.

2. Step in with your right foot and drop your right sword, exposing your right shoulder and inviting the high cross.

3. When your opponent high crosses, bring your left hand to your right shoulder, which will table-top your shield and block the high cross.

4. Simultaneous to step three, your lowered sword throws a cross outside wrap that will take advantage of your opponents now-open sword-side hip. If thrown with an upward motion, you may strike the sword arm even if the hip is blocked by your opponents shield work.

This primarily works because people cannot help throwing the high cross. It does, however, work like gold.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Brennon EH » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:20 pm

Doom Loops: A fighting style characterized by exaggerated circular motions preceding and following shots. Not so much a 'wind up' as a conservation of momentum. Often perpetrated by those with heavier-than-reasonable weapons for their strength.

Doom Loops are a stylistic choice for some, and it often does mislead lower-tier fighters. A Doom Loop against average or better fighters, however, leads to being predictable and getting stabbed a lot.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Derian » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:22 pm

Like this? (4:06 or so)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... +%26+board

Edit: Darkside
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Brennon EH » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:28 pm

That's the basic concept, yeah. The shield needs to be more tabled, and ideally the edge should end up under your opponents armpit or chin. And the sell for the body opening could be better.

The sell for the fake is incredibly important on this one.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby p_quick » Thu Feb 12, 2009 2:58 pm

short cross - a cross, where your elbow maintains a horizontal to straight up and down (pointed at the floor). The strength of this is that you are still protecting your weapons side while you throw this shot. reducing the chance of getting arm-timed. or pocket stabbed in return

High cross - a cross where your elbow breaks the horizontal plain and points skyward, forcing your hand to be turned so the top or your hand points downward (toward the floor).

Brennen's description of a Darkside wrap is pretty spot on. as least as i've understood the shot. Some people tend to use the word "darkside" to describe any reverse flat-cross wrap.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:49 pm

I thought about posting this same topic on E-Sam last week about a universal handbook but didn't for the following reasons:

1) I'd like consensus ... and man ... I don't even know what we (Amtgarders) mean by some of the terms we use, let alone y'all's lingo. I think the term 'doom loops' is hilarious, though. Even in my game, we certainly don't agree amongst ourselves as to what constitutes a specific shot or even what to call it.
2) Any handbook of shots would either need to have copious sketches / pictures, or, preferably, video from two or more angles of the shot. This is not trivial.
3) Would it really, in the end, help anyone out?

Those first two requirements themselves seem very daunting to me - consensus on what equals what shots amongst the high-end fighters alone could take forever. The third is a definite maybe. It would help when doing written critiques of someones fighting, I guess. Not sure where else it would be applicable.

It'd be a big * project to do something this ambitious. So, I didn't make any posts 'cause I wanted to think how best to do it (and, of course, take all the credit for it).

It'd be neat if this could be some sort of an inter-game project.

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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:57 pm

Oh, yeah .. forgot to add, just like the 'Dark Side' is not a straight shot but is shorthand for an action that includes specific footwork, shieldwork, a feint, a body fake and an actual shot, many advanced 'shots' are assembled from different facets of all those aspects mentioned. To truly describe and show a shot, all of those facets would have to be shown and discussed in detail. I do not think that a text description alone is enough to truly impart the necessary info on how to throw an advanced shot.

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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby p_quick » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:58 pm

i'm game for helping out with making this a inter game shot tutorials. Bo and i have been kicking ideas like this around for some time now, althou not any time recently.

I think putting together a group of videos and or sketches would be ideal for this sort of thing.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Spyn » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:59 pm

Brennen and I are going to video the basics stuff i posted in a few weeks. SHould be broken down well enough for anyone to understand. It covers the 10 shots..stances..guards..and proper terms for just about everything. It should help every one get on the same page as far as naming and understanding proper form.

After that area is covered and the drills stuff i have is complete then we are going to switch to style specific video's.


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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:02 pm

Spyn wrote:SHould be broken down well enough for anyone to understand. It covers .... proper terms for just about everything. It should help every one get on the same page as far as naming and understanding proper form.


Yeah .. but what if I don't like your damned naming conventions, you *?

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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Brennon EH » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:03 pm

We both know that whether or not you LIKE our conventions, you will follow them because you're lazy.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby p_quick » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:08 pm

arthon wrote:
Spyn wrote:SHould be broken down well enough for anyone to understand. It covers .... proper terms for just about everything. It should help every one get on the same page as far as naming and understanding proper form.


Yeah .. but what if I don't like your d amned naming conventions, you b astard?

-a


You don't know how much i just enjoyed that. Arthon you had better make your vids first...best not upset the Ego Equilibrium that we've already talked about. hah :)


But the vids should be really good. i'll get them up on here as soon as B and Spyn get them posted.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby p_quick » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:08 pm

this is like a Fox special "When Warlords Talk Sh1t"
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Winfang » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:21 pm

Arthon, you can turn off the word censor. It's not like this is Dagorhir :)

arthon wrote:3) Would it really, in the end, help anyone out?

The answer is a big yes to that question. It will provide a common language for people discussing fighting. It will make it easier for people to understand what we're talking about and get involved. There would be a solid foundation for build training and teaching.

At the end of the day, it would solve my frustrations of not understanding what the hell you guys are talking about!

It could be real ambitious, going down the route Spyn and Brennon are doing. Or it could something as simple as a Wiki page with a simple sentence describing the shot. As for consensus, Brennon hit the nail on the head expect directing just at Arthon, it covers 90% of us.

Here is a real quick list that I made up.
    Sword shots
    1. Definitions
    1.1. Weapon Orientation
    1.1.1. Front Side
    Leading edge of the blade. Referred to as the true edge.
    1.1.2. Back Side
    Trailing edge of the blade. Referred to as the false edge.
    1.1.3. Flat
    Non-striking side surface of a sword.
    1.1.4. Tip
    The end point of the blade.
    1.1.5. To visualize the orientation without a sword
    To practice shots without a sword, use an open hand. Front side is bottom edge of the palm where the pinkie is. Back side is the top edge of palm where the thumb is. Flat is the full palm or back of hand.
    1.2. Hit Locations
    1.2.1. Same-side
    Same side of the target that the weapon starts on. Referred to as sword-side or on-side.
    1.2.2. Other-side
    Opposite side of the target from where the weapon starts at. Referred to as shield-side or off-side.
    1.2.3. Outside
    A shot that starts from the outside of the center line of the target and move towards it.
    1.2.4. Inside
    A shot that passes the center line of a target and moves away from it.
    2. Basic Types of Shots
    2.1. Chop
    A simple shot that involves take the fist from the outside guard position moving towards the inside at a vertical angle, using the forearm as a lever. This front side will move typically in a 45-180 degree arc into the target. The motion is similar to chopping wood. This shot typically targets same-side shoulder and leg.
    2.1.1. Variants
    2.1.1.1. Other-side Chop
    The shot targets the other-side forearm arm. It requires the hips to turn slightly towards the target and this causes to the chop to move from the inside to outside.
    2.1.1.2. Leg Chop
    The shot targets the same-side leg/hip area.
    2.1.1.3. Drop Shot
    This chop targets the same-side shoulder of the opponent. The shot is done by straight down from the guard position.
    2.2. Cross
    The shot targets the other-side shoulder, arm, or body. From the guard position the fist is required to across the targets body. The sword will twist resulting in the weapon pointing down when the front-side connects.
    2.2.1. Variants
    2.2.1.1. High Cross
    The fist goes high over the head across the opponent’s body. Elbow is point up in the air in front of the head. The body rotates to the direction the shot is thrown.
    2.2.1.2. Short Cross
    The fist stays on the horizontal plane while it across the opponent’s body. The shot targets the body and/or hip.
    2.2.1.3. Avalonian Cross
    Similar to a high cross except the elbow remains behind the head and the body rotates away from the shot to better defend the arm.
    2.2.1.4. Leaning Cross

    2.3. Wraps
    A slightly more complex shot that starts off as a chop and midway through the swing the hand rotates 180 allowing the back-side of the sword to strike the opponent. Useful for creating new angles to get around shields.
    2.3.1. Variants
    2.3.1.1. Should Wrap
    From guard the fist is punch high and outside of the opponent’s center-line on the same-side. Towards the end, the fist is rotated so the palm faces away from the opponent. When the sword hits with the tip pointed towards the ground.
    2.3.1.2. Hip Wrap
    The fist stays on the horizontal plane while it across the opponent’s body. The shot targets the body and/or hip.
    2.3.1.3. Wrap 3
    2.4. Stabs
    A slightly more complex shot that starts off as a chop and midway through the swing the hand rotates 180 allowing the back-side of the sword to strike the opponent. Useful for creating new angles to get around shields.
    2.4.1. Variants
    2.4.1.1. Stab 1

    2.4.1.2. Stab 2

    2.4.1.3. Stab 3
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:21 pm

Brennon EH wrote:We both know that whether or not you LIKE our conventions, you will follow them because you're lazy.


Probably true. It doesn't mean that I don't hate you for it.

Of course, I did pioneer the first comprehensive instructional fighting video. ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4507216130 ) Anything y'all do after that is purely derivative.

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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:24 pm

p_quick wrote:this is like a Fox special "When Warlords Talk Sh1t"


Yep .. the rest of y'all should just ignore Brennon, Spyn and I when we do this. We could go on forever.

I mean, they both still have so much to learn, while I sit on top of the mountain dispensing wisdom. It eats them up.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Winfang » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:25 pm

OMG I just rewatched that video again. That's where Tinman gets his desire for flare from! One day we'll get Tinny to that level.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Brennon EH » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:27 pm

Okay, enough. We are polluting their fighting forum with our weak smack.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:31 pm

Winfang wrote:That's where Tinman gets his desire for flare from!


No way ... if he's like me, it's from watching such awesome instructional videos such as Conan the Barbarian, Willow, and The Thirteenth Warrior.

P.S. I can turn the curse filter off? Excellent.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:36 pm

Brennon EH wrote:Okay, enough. We are polluting their fighting forum with our weak smack.


Fair enough. Do y'all have all your footage taken with just the need to edit and dub it, yet? If so, I'll gladly wait to see what y'all have to offer.

Winfang - I think a wiki page would be an excellent start. Do y'all have a Belegarth wiki?

Speaking of which, an even more ambitious project would be to have a foam-fighting wiki that spanned all the games. Minus NERO. and IFGS. cause ... well. ... * those guys.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Davit » Thu Feb 12, 2009 5:03 pm

Here's a link for the bel wiki. http://geddon.org/index.php/Main_Page
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Arrakis » Thu Feb 12, 2009 6:47 pm

I presume the SCAdian amongst us will be helping with the terminology that derives from that long, illustrious tradition? There's some standardization in terms in the SCA, but not a whole ton, near as I can tell.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Thu Feb 12, 2009 9:44 pm

arthon wrote:
Brennon EH wrote:We both know that whether or not you LIKE our conventions, you will follow them because you're lazy.


Probably true. It doesn't mean that I don't hate you for it.

Of course, I did pioneer the first comprehensive instructional fighting video. ( http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 4507216130 ) Anything y'all do after that is purely derivative.

-arthon


Yeah, including mine.

In other news,

The 512 is a wicked hot move that I can land on a ton of people. Made all the more glorious by the fact that the Philadelphia area code is in fact 215.

If I go to UT Austin for grad school, you will see plenty of me, count on that.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Brennon EH » Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:24 pm

See what happens, Harry? You're teaching the kids bad habits.

Spinning. Jesus.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Bhakdar » Thu Feb 12, 2009 11:22 pm

I love it. Do it. This will give common ground for people to speak from-- its really whoever invests energy in the terminology of instruction that creates the way.

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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:32 am

Brennon EH wrote:See what happens, Harry? You're teaching the kids bad habits.


What happened to "We are polluting their fighting forum with our weak smack"? Cause that was the definition of *weak* smak.


Magnus wrote:If I go to UT Austin for grad school, you will see plenty of me, count on that.


That would be badass. Then, I'd have someone down here pushing me to go to Bel/Dag events. Plus, you might enjoy our Wednesday-night fighter practices.

Davit, thanks for the link to the Bel wiki. It helps to put faces to names. 'Course, I could have found it if I had just looked around a little bit more on the main Bel site.

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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:36 am

Bhakdar wrote: its really whoever invests energy in the terminology of instruction that creates the way.


I know this. Brennon knows this. Brennon knows I'm lazy. He's gonna get to it first (with Spyn), name all the shots by fiat, everyone will use those terms, and I will hate him forever.

Curses.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Fri Feb 13, 2009 1:39 pm

Dude, the reverse-spin move (counterclockwise for a righty fighter) is seriously useful. Even in shoulder-to-shoulder Dagorhir line fights. Since many Dag fighters use ridiculously large shields, fancy **** like that doesn't always fly, but its powerful shot delivery, resulting from the strong hip motion, and fast recovery makes it a worthwhile move. Especially when done against the legs--I like to sweep the leg at the lower shin, and follow with a shield kick to knock the opponent flat on the ground.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby arthon » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:04 pm

MagnusofDregoth wrote:Dude, the reverse-spin move (counterclockwise for a righty fighter) is seriously useful. Even in shoulder-to-shoulder Dagorhir line fights. Since many Dag fighters use ridiculously large shields, fancy **** like that doesn't always fly, but its powerful shot delivery, resulting from the strong hip motion, and fast recovery makes it a worthwhile move. Especially when done against the legs--I like to sweep the leg at the lower shin, and follow with a shield kick to knock the opponent flat on the ground.


Don't worry about it, Magnus. Brennon was just trying to goad me. He's seen the value of that shot time and time again. We do this with each other all the time. A lot of our fighting philosophy is diametrically opposed, so we poke fun at the other guy.

btw.... I started watching your instructional videos. That was really ambitious of you (there are quite a few). Kudos to you.

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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:08 pm

Thanks, Arthon. We're probably going to remake the original video set with some modifications, including stabbing and other improvements I have made to my fighting style since last year. Plus, I hope to get more cooperative partners with better garb.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Fri Feb 13, 2009 2:27 pm

I classify all strikes in Belegarth by an 8 strike system. Further clairified by the method of delivery (i.e. Wrap, hack, whip, stab, etc.). It's fairly difficult to explain, but it does make describing "shots", which I call techniques, much easier. To me a shot is a "flat wrap", a technique is like the "reverse-spin", it involves not only a shot, but also footwork, feints and other factors. I plan to put a tutorial up describing the methods I use for strike recognition. It's like the differnece between learning a Traditional Japanese MA or something more modern....One will call the shot a horizontal punch, the other is a zuko-zumi, both meaning the same thing.

A standardized methodology of describing strikes and techniques would go a long way as to making teaching of techniques easier.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby xiao » Tue Feb 17, 2009 12:53 pm

hey peter

what's this move. scroll ahead to 5:04

lol!


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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby p_quick » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:45 pm

its called knock em down and hit them :devil:
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby bishoplod » Fri Feb 20, 2009 2:07 pm

Earlier on in the post someone mentioned 'darkside'. I like the one Brennon and Arthon have but I was originally shown a completely different version I was curious if others have heard of.

Atilla from DA was showing some moves and what I thought he said was called a darkside. Much more riskier, lower percentage shot but was behind the head. Used in a set up while moving past. Purely fancy move but I was curious if others had seen it used in that fashion.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby MagnusofDregoth » Sun Mar 01, 2009 2:17 pm

Peter, Brennon, et al:

Let's meet at Skbc to discuss this and come up with a definitive list. When I host the Academy three weeks later, I will make sure all of the instructors are on the same page and stick to the same set of terms. I hope that being able to use a common vocabulary will make cross-game communication easier and more productive.

Sound like a plan?
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby p_quick » Sun Mar 01, 2009 5:48 pm

sure i'm up for it.

but it might be better to wait until spyn and B make their videos and just let that be the standard.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Brennon EH » Sun Mar 01, 2009 7:14 pm

Hopefully the videos will be up before SKBC. That said, standards are only the bar until something better comes along. I'm definitely open for discussing terminology at SKBC.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby bo1 » Mon Mar 02, 2009 12:57 am

it really doesnt matter if we call it a dark side, j hook or a **** superberily stupper rubber baby buggy bumper. what matters is that a short cross is a short cross. high cross is a high cross. and we all know what all the shots mean and the mechanics of them, opening they create, and logical return to them.

the name is just a name, first one to name it usually sticks.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Drudge » Sun Apr 05, 2009 9:34 pm

May I be so bold as to propose something to you gentlemen? I have begun work on a course of instruction for new fighters, and this thread came to mind when I was writing down my outline for shots to teach. In pondering over my "basic" shots section, this definition came to mind:

A basic (i.e., non-wrapping) shot that originates from outside the center line and comes inward to the opponent is a chop.

A basic (i.e., non-wrapping) shot that originates at or near the center line and goes outward to the opponent is a slash.

What do you guys think?
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Sir Cairbre » Mon Apr 06, 2009 6:40 am

Drudge wrote:A basic (i.e., non-wrapping) shot that originates from outside the center line and comes inward to the opponent is a chop.

A basic (i.e., non-wrapping) shot that originates at or near the center line and goes outward to the opponent is a slash.

What do you guys think?


I think, No.

A 'chop' is the preferred motion you use with an axe of a falcheon (sword class that contains machetes). Chops imply a somewhat ridged elbow. And a 'slash' is the combination of a swing and a draw cut. Sounds like you are trying to invent terminology that is already used for several things.

I find it really hard to understand why you are trying to define shots based on their starting position relevant to the center line. Shouldn't the starting position of your blade for a strike be based off stance and guard? I think you have the horse a little ahead of the cart... or more simply you are trying to define shots when you don't have a base of stance and guard to build from. It is a good try.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Drudge » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:24 am

SirMADOG wrote:
I find it really hard to understand why you are trying to define shots based on their starting position relevant to the center line. Shouldn't the starting position of your blade for a strike be based off stance and guard?


Yes, but that is exactly what I meant. I was using the term center line just to help visualize the action of the swing. Imagine a normal-ish stance and "A frame" guard. Your weapon is on the outside. If you swing it inward to hit your opponent, that'd be the chop. If you use an action of the wrist to bring the blade inward and then swing it outward, that'd be the slash. Does that make sense?
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Sir Cairbre » Mon Apr 06, 2009 8:51 am

'Cross body' and 'natural strike' are what you are talking about. In fact the 'High cross' gets it's name from the term 'cross body'. Cross body --> High Cross: Cross body --> Low cross.

Natural strikes do not cross your center. While Cross bodies cross your center line.
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Re: Fighting Defintions

Postby Poo » Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:11 am

Didn't want to start a new post for this question, as i think it fits here. I was shown a shot awhile ago that i've started using on all of the lefties in my realm and i was wondering if there was a name for it. I'll try to explain it as best as i can.

1. You start shield foot forward and begin with a same side low wrap as a feint. (i generally body feint instead)
2. then you spin (left side going towards your opponent) while you step in and put your shield behind your back to block any shots.
3. almost throw your sword elbow straight up in the air and a little to the outside to strike your opponent in the back. I generally connect while facing directly away from my opponent.
4. Finish the spin and see the look of confusion.

Very flashy, somewhat useless shot thats very good for breaking ego armor... Does it have a name?
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