Team Fighting

[Michael]

I noticed that in one of the other posts someone stated that Bel fighters were often better team fighters than solo fighters. I come from 20+ years of Amtgard and that is certainly not true of Amt fighters. Those who are better team fighters than solo fighters are pretty rare in Amtgard. Since I am new to Bel and have only played in one little park, I have little basis to evaluate this comment about Bel fighters. Team fighting is my area of expertise and I have concentrated on the principles of team work and foam fighting for much of my time in foam fighting so I am interested in this question.

Last night at practice, I asked Bo what he thought of this statement and he told me that he thought that most Bel fighters were better one on one than they were in teams because smaller practices are the norm. We then had a good discussion of two man principles. Anyway, I wanted more input on this point.

What do you think about the statement? How good do you feel about team fighting in Bel. 2 man? Small unit? Large Scale? Do you work to improve these skills with your people? If so how?

[Roland Demox]

In my humble opinion I feel that the better fighters in the sport hold more weight when in a small group or two man. Reason being is exactly what Bo said. Most realms dont have a good enough attendance to hold large scale battles so you cant get much practice in that setting

[arthon]

In one of the threads where I saw folks talking about large scale fighting, many folks made reference to the 'toilet bowl of death'. I find this description apt, and almost as hilarious as 'doom loops'. Anyways, if most large fights in Bel devolve to a 'TBoD' scenario it would seems as if it breaks down in the same way as large 'ditch' battles break down in Amtgard.

Or is the 'TBoD' syndrome not a regular occurrence in most Bel battles?

-arthon

[Derian]

Not quite a total toilet bowl. One flank will almost inevitably be stronger than its counter, but by the time they roll through, they just end up coming up on the back of the center and other flank most of the time.

It does happen probably at least a third of the time though.

[Soo Ma Tai]

TBoD is more common when there are more than twoteams in a battle, or even more commonly when there is a prize at steak and no one wants to die.

As for tactics, I would say that, at least in the west, people tend to be better in small units, pairs or single man. Mostly due to the lack of large events or realms.

[Michael]

The toilet bowl swirl is part of the nature of battles. In both of our games and in real life, the occurance of both right flanks pushing against both enemy left flanks is reasonably common.

[Slagar]

I've actually gotten to listen to one of Belegarth's own supervets talk about this, and he made some very interesting points. He was fighting with some of Amt's best at an Amt event (names left out, but some of them post here, if I remember the names right), and this was what he had to say about it.
In fighting in line fights, with about 5-9 guys per side, the key to winning was to line up across from one of the lesser fighters. He said that lining up across from the best he was about on par, or a little behind, using Amt's weapons and hit calibration. Lining up across from a lesser fighter, he'd walk through them, and then swat the guys to either side without them ever seeing it coming. Game over, reform the lines, repeat.

The point he made is that, in our realm at least, there is a huge emphasis on battlefield awareness, on not getting hit with a simple chop shot by a guy standing 20 degrees off to one side, on seeing people coming from somewhere other than right in front of you. Against these Amt vets, he said they had none of that. They'd get hit square in the torso from a shot that a Numenorean noob would see coming a mile away.

This is, I believe, the fault of ditching. I've been told (not seen it), that in ditching it's considered bad form to "roll the line", to run down behind the line, and hit people at the angles we're used to. You can't go one fight in Numenor without someone attacking you from the rear quarter, and if you don't see it coming, to hell with you. This difference in culture probably results in most (not all) Amt fighters not being used to attacks from weird places, and so they get munched by situations that Bel fighters are used to.

That's not to say that Bel fighters don't get killed that way a lot, too. Obviously it happens all the time, that's why we're used to it. Just that it does give us an edge, through the magic of statistics.

Not trying to harsh on Amt, just relaying a *very* experienced fighter's observations about this phenomenon, and my own thoughts as to why it is this way. Feel free to call me on it if I've missed a detail somewhere.

[Michael]

This is, I believe, the fault of ditching. I've been told (not seen it), that in ditching it's considered bad form to "roll the line", to run down behind the line, and hit people at the angles we're used to. You can't go one fight in Numenor without someone attacking you from the rear quarter, and if you don't see it coming, to hell with you. This difference in culture probably results in most (not all) Amt fighters not being used to attacks from weird places, and so they get munched by situations that Bel fighters are used to.

This obsevation is true in some parts of Amtgard but not most in my experience. As with anything, different people want different things out of Amtgard Ditching. Some seek to win and some just to get their one on one practice in a concentrated form. The latter group does sometimes frown on back attacks but those seeking to win are probaly the larger group in most ditches (as well as almost all other types of games).

I totally agree with your supervet about awareness being essentail to team fighting excellence but I see it as necessary but not sufficient. Other teamwork skills are also essential. In as much as Bel might be better at team fighting than Amtgard, I dont want to hear why as much as how. I am interested in how team fighting is viewed, practiced and taught.

[Slagar]

Ah. My mistake. As to how it's practiced and taught, the second best example of a training regime for large, line-based units can be found at:

http://www.uruk-hai.info/form.html
1st click the "join" section, then go to basic training.

This is a good example of the unit training that team-fighting units go through. There are better examples out there, but they're a huge pain in the * to get at. This is the kind of stuff that tactics-oriented units typically drill. It gets *way* more complicated for some units, but this is the gist. Hope this better answers your question.

[Michael]

Thank you for posting. It was interesting if general. Do you know of any videos or deeper material? Where do they practice? (or even get large units together)? I would love to have anyone reccomend more Belegarth team fighting sources. This is my area of interest and I am always eager to see how others approach it.

[Brennon EH]

That's definitely true to a large extent in ditching. I'm not fighting to win, if I'm ditching, I'm fighting to get better. I don't get better by killing my opponent when they are unaware of me.

That leads to a certain culture wherein you typically don't expect to be hit from an odd angle while ditching. You probably DID see the guy there, and then dismissed him. If he's going to hit you, he's going to let you know first.

Ditching is practice. If you're talking about a more structured, goal-oriented sort of combat (wars, militia battles, battlegames, whatever) then you see a definite "win at all costs and watch your back" attitude emerge.

That's my own personal opinion, of course. Arthon will probably get on here shortly and yell about how backstabbing in the ditch is the best thing since sliced bread

As far as team fighting does for me, personally: I hate it. Hate, hate, hate. Cannot stand it. I wave off people who try and 'help' me; they invariably get in my way. I do enjoy fighting teams of other people, though, and will actively seek out three and four on one odds to give me more of a learning opportunity. I will frequently encourage people I'm beating to go get friends and come back.

I should stress, again, that this is my personal opinion. And it's not 100% to be sure. If I can get Spyn, Sparhawk, Frank, or one of a few other excellent, highly mobile fighters with me then I am totally willing to fight as a team.

I would say that the Bel mentality of 'team first' provides a definite edge in group combat. You guys generally teach your newbies how to be team effective first, and then effective fighters second. Amt teaches just the reverse. As such, I think Amtgard produces a better average level of skill, but Bel produces a better average team player.

Which was is better? Well, it depends what you're doing. If you've got a lot of middling talent that you need to weld into an effective force in a couple of months, definitely go for teamwork. If you've got a few years, teach individual skill and then weld those people together into a team. You will have a much stronger final result with the second option.

[Michael]

When I said some people use ditch battles as a place to improve their one on one skills, I had Brennon (among others) in mind. I am definitely on the other side. Playing to win in ditches has real value not becasue winning is special but becasue it practices multiple skills at once. You may get a little less work per hour on your one on one skills but it builds battle field awareness, teaches tactics, and increases your ability to work with others on the battlefield at the same time. In Amtgard where it is our default activity taking up 70%+ of our fighting time, its important to get it all in in my view.

[Brennon EH]

When I said some people use ditch battles as a place to improve their one on one skills, I had Brennon (among others) in mind.

One-on-many, skills, too. That's generally what I get out of ditching.

MHoG has a definite point with trying to work everything in together. I'm willing to go so far as to admit that my only real refutation is that I'm a misanthrope.

[MagnusofDregoth]

In Dagorhir, the same is largely true about the fighters as in Belegarth, because many units out there (Rome, GtG, Narnia being some of the most visible) train their members as "soldiers," not "warriors." However, it is also true that in the smaller realms, such as Taurendor (my own realm, in Philadelphia--about 30 regular fighters, and my unit has 10 members of whom 6-8 fight regularly), individual fighting skills are developed more quickly, and more easily, because the field isn't very dense.

For example, if someone is fighting in an Aratari battle, she's fighting among about 100 fighters in an area not much larger than a basketball court, because it's the largest flat grassy space in a small suburban park. There are going to be people all around her, and if she isn't good at communication with her unit-mates and dealing with people coming from all sorts of angles, then she's just going to get killed. Whereas, if someone is fighting at a Taurendor battle, he's fighting among 25 people in an area the size of a soccer field (Philadelphia has a large park system), and it is easy to just run off to the side and do your own thing, running in to pick off a lone fighter and then running out. Zadrian, a skilled lefty fighter in Taurendor, does this all the time, since the other 9 members of his unit basically quit the game two years ago.

Reducing all this to topography or geography is maybe kind of lame, but I think it has some merit. A lot of Amtgard parks are in places that are pretty wide open, such as Texas (everything's bigger there, right?) while the Aratari, the original Dagorhir chapter and one that still has a lot of influence on the way Dag groups do things, fight in small suburban parks in Maryland and Virginia, around Washington.

[Michael]

Terrain certainly plays a part. How big a part is a matter of discussion but it cerainly does.

[arthon]

That's my own personal opinion, of course. Arthon will probably get on here shortly and yell about how backstabbing in the ditch is the best thing since sliced bread

Absolutely. We train our guys to blow up the ditch field in the most expeditious manner. We're there to win. That generally means 'turn and burn' tactics. Turn the flank and then burn down the line.

That being said, each Amtgard kingdom has its own subculture. Some kingdoms prefer not to backstab (I mock them when I travel there), others are all about it.

Brennon and I have this argument all the time, so it really isn't doing anything for us, and it's not helping y'all on this thread- this is supposed to be about how y'all do it.

To get back on topic, my company (what y'all would call a unit), emphasizes pairing off with a wingman and fighting solely with him even if there are a whole bunch of us on the field. The lead guy hits the flank and turns it while the wingman takes the flanks/backs of those that have turned. They each look out for the other while we all run around like wild Indians looking for the weak spot after the wagons have been circled. Do y'all break your unit fighting down into something that small, or is the emphasis on larger groups moving cohesively?

If so, we have a company here in Texas that employs whistles and battlefield commands to try to keep themselves organized, and I remember that the Kutriguri (that's the Slavic unit, right?) used battlefield commands in the Bulgar tongue that only they would understand. Do y'all bust that sort of thing out on a regular basis?

-arthon

[Derian]

It can vary widely even on the same field.

There are a number of units that do (or did) employ tactics where they'll stay together in a tight line and function as a single entity as much as possible.

Then, there are the groups that function like what you mentioned where they break off into twos or threes (even if there are 40 of them on a field at once).

There's also units in the middle ground that will have a group of people tightly working together while a few smaller groups will try to herd other groups into the tighter group, sort of a hammer & anvil type deal.

[p_quick]

in my view, bel fighters are terrible at fighting with one another. there are very few select groups of people that fight as well as falkor and i do, or Kenny and borric, Ixious and Dac, Winfang and Spazz. So I believe most people are more effective if they are fighting alone.

Now however, I among many other older fighters in bel fancy themself as a better crowd fighter then one on one fighter. And i get the feeling, from talking with spyn and a few others that most amt fighters are better at one on one fights. but i could be wrong.

Thoughts?

[Michael]

Amtagrd figthers are very much one on one fighters. Few people train for it and the hero warrior culture doesnt encorage it. There are plenty of exceptions though.

[arthon]

in my view, bel fighters are terrible at fighting with one another. there are very few select groups of people that fight as well as falkor and i do, or Kenny and borric, Ixious and Dac, Winfang and Spazz. So I believe most people are more effective if they are fighting alone.

Now however, I among many other older fighters in bel fancy themself as a better crowd fighter then one on one fighter. And i get the feeling, from talking with spyn and a few others that most amt fighters are better at one on one fights. but i could be wrong.

Thoughts?

If you talk to Spyn, myself, Brennon or any other Warlords, we're all gonna tell you that we're pretty much badass at everything.

But I suspect that you are correct. We tend to put the most focus on the individual beatdowns. Even in large battles, it's all about the individual competitions. Very like the way that 'The Illiad' describes combat in many ways. 'Cause, you know, we're heroes. heh.

Even when fighting singly against groups, I teach the use of wolf tactics, i.e. separate one from the herd, mow him down, rinse & repeat until everyone's dead.

-arthon

Note .. apparently Michael already beat me to the 'heroes' quote. Dammit.

[Bhakdar]

Another aspect of team fighting in Belegarth I haven't seen raised here yet is that every major national event has realm battles and unit battles in which there are usually 10-20 teams of 5-50 warriors all trying to win the field. Realm (our name for local chapter) and Unit (similar to Amtard 'company') battles are a highlight of events for many warriors who take pride in their group identity.

All the Amtgard practices, battlegames, and the single event I've been to, have mostly focused around two big teams. I had people huff at me if I hit them in the leg or backstabbed them in large field battles and didn't register the culture difference until later.

At Belegarth events, large field battles with multiple teams are common. This makes teams with more archers, javelins, and armor wield a significant advantage. And teams that don't have the equipment are forced to make up for it by being fleet and sneaky flankers. They have to back stab archers and armored high-tier fighters when they get a chance in order to be effective. This is probably a big part of the culture difference coming from ditching leaving out archers and armor.

As for individual & team fighting, I concur that the strongest team fighters are usually small groups of vets that have practiced with and against each other a lot. I'm not nearly as much of a team fighter as a duelist in the context of my physical prowess. On the other hand, I think the strongest team fighting power often emanates through battle command. I know my voice can move a lot of people to do a lot of effective things, including take down a hot sauce pair that I couldn't just go beat myself.

[Arrakis]

I don't know that I'm qualified to comment on Bel as a whole (if there is such a thing), but I find that I'm best working in tandem with another fast, skilled fighter. Anytime I'm in a fight with Snotbelly on my team, for example, and we feel like just brutalizing the enemy team, we get together on one flank and just go nuts.

However, I'm pretty fair in a standup fight one-on-one, though I'm no where near Peter, Dread, Galin, etc. skill level. But I do think I'm more effective on the field, helping coordinate new guys, threatening a flank or plugging a hole than I am in a one-on-one fight.

Example: At Beltaine 08, I spent much of my time Ooga-Booga-ing the opposing line one v. four or five, just keeping them from exploiting an opening in our line until we could wrap a flank or playing blind to a hole in the opposing lines until I knew I could bust it wide open and run down the opposing archers, turning the whole team in on itself. Some of my most effective fights, I feel, I got maybe 1 or 2 kills.

In general, in practice team battles nowadays, I'll let an enemy fighter know I'm upon him if it looks like the teams are still relatively even and I'm middling confident that I have at least a 40% chance of killing the guy. If my team seems outclassed, I'll start slash-n-flanking, running past fighters and near the edges of groups, trying to throw groups of the enemy off of their stride and cut at least one per pass or just try to crush the weak flank and wrap the opposing team up. At events, I'm likely to just play flank'n'push.

*shrug* Just my thoughts on the matter.