Rhinohiding

[Relg]

Just had an informal practice earlier. There's one guy who refuses to take his hits. What is the best way to get him to take his hits, just short of field-goal kicking his nut sack?

[BattleChrist]

Call him on it during the fighting if he still doesn't take it kick him off the field, tell him if he doesn't play by the rules he doesn't at all.

[Theros the Large]

There are two ways of going about this...

Reason

1. Try to reason with him. Let him know that his behavior is not correct and that he is not playing the game correctly.
Let him know that as a newer fighter it is best for him to take even the most glancing of shots as he will be back alive in a few minutes and the worst reputation you can earn in our game is a cheater. It's something that you will almost never live down.

Violence

2. Make it a point to pummel him into the ground during every fight. This is the harder and meaner way of getting the point across. When fighting him make sure that everyone in the group keep hitting him until he drops to the ground or screams that he is dead. Eventually he will get tired of being beaten into the ground every fight and HOPEFULLY will start taking his hits correctly.

[Bhakdar]

If you're a realm that doesn't regularly use heralds, start having heralds on your field every fight and make sure everyone understands their job. To make sure everyone has fun fairly and safely.

Don't let it become a battle of egos; the buck stops at good heralding.

If someone isn't receptive to a fair herald, they aren't playing the game by our rules and deserve to be removed from the field until they learn.

[Bhakdar]

The previous post was me. Pardon to any confusion w/ Sipris.

[Derian]

The previous post was me. Pardon to any confusion w/ Sipris.

Fixed for you.

[varadin]

First pull them off and call them out on it. No matter what the excuse is tell them it needs to stop. If they say people are throwing light tell them that everyone else is taking those shots and they have to tune down the shot calibration.

Second remember if there is a "light shot" there is no too hard. Crank on them. If its just them cheating this might not make a difference but ive found if you hit a guy really hard a few times they start to take your shots better.

[Relg]

All good suggestions. I'll try them out next Tuesday.
Thanks.

[Slagar]

Also, if this guy's new, do everyone a favor and let him live it down, if he straightens out. Some people come into this sport with thicker skin than others, and there is an adjustment time needed. There's no need to ruin someone's career in the sport forever, over an honest mistake. If he's a vet and a cheater, that's a different story, just saying that new guys deserve some leeway. Hell, I joined Belegarth a week after rugby season ended, and it took me several months to get my hit-taking completely in line. I was so trained to ignore every hit that didn't knock me over for the sake of moving the ball down the field, that I didn't notice anything I couldn't see for the first couple weeks. Sometimes new fighters need to adjust, you know?

Other than that, everyone here gave you good advice.

[Big King Jimmy]

I've got a few questions:

1. How old are you, how old is he?

2. How big is your realm?

3. Who are the senior fighters in your realm, how long have they been fighting? How old are they?

4. In all seriousness, does this person intimate you? Can you actually kick him off the field if he doesn't want to go?

My reasoning here is that you mentioned this is an informal practice. At a normal practice at an established realm, this stuff would never fly. Sure, he can blow off shots, but if a really good fighter is fighting him they can block all his sloppy * and destroy some area of his body with hard and fast shots. But if you're a newerish fighter, and you take your hits, you probably don't have that chance.

[Derian]

Also, if he's new, it's entirely possible that he simply can't register everything that's going on in time which might make it look like he's cheating. It's hard for some people when they first start fighting.

But yeah, if he's been fighting for 6 months or more and has been talked to, beat him into the ground.

[bo1]

i use a series of escalating levels for cheaters.

starts with me wondering of they are cheating. a questionable shot here or there is usually the norm, but past that i start watching. so i herald and watch them like a hawk. after i call them dead a few times, i go over exactly what happened and the offences they made. education is the key. i am polite and very helpful. i lead them to the conclusion taking hits is the best thing in the world. i also explain how lucky they are that it was me that got to them before others.

step 2, step one is not helping. i them begin to pick a soft spot and make it softer. i remind them of my previous teachings after practice, like say when they cannot walk right any more cause i wrecked that nerve 2" above the knee on the out side. they usually get the point then, and also fear the consiquences. plus, to hell with them i warned them that people can be unfriendly in step one.

step 3, explain that you have no other options, either play right or go home. i will use words like cheating, douche bag/nozzle, silly nerd game, fun. things that set the tone of what it is i do here, you know play my silly fun little nerd game with all the cheating douche bags, and that it is no fun to play with them cheaters.

step 4, they leave. they never come back. i have saved belegarth from another cheating douche.

those are really the only options. if you are not a gorilla, and cannot cripple someone, find a vet nearby and explain what you are needing from them, we are all willing to help. perhaps you should get a few newer fighter to play rough, that might work too.

story time:
i had a guy in rhun, he was a cheating *. always blowing off shots, always calling * like knee pad, head when you just ever so lightly brush his ear and crush his shoulder. head boxing, all of it. so i started just not swinging at him unless i could hit his leg. i could get it hard enough and regularly enough that he had a permibruise there. which made him more likely to take the shot. once he was legged, i would not swing, i would just bash him over and rake him over the gravel floor. knee on belly, shield edge in his throat, sword near his legs, continually rubbing him into the ground. he stopped coming when he asked if i would please stop raking him into the ground, i responded with well the sword isn't working so it is the best way to deal with you.

[Sir Anastasia]

Funny Story bo1.
Any tips for keeping the environment hearld free (and without rhinos)? I strongly oppose hearlds on my field because the hearld would probably need to be me-and I prefer to fight at fighting. Also, there is a person on my field (one of the best) that usually is fine at calling shots, but starts to miscall or rhino when the field has more XP and tougher fighters. Miscall would be like saying leg when hit above the hip, ect. The great part of this is when people start calling him/her on it-the person gets mad/hurt that people are questioning their honor. Now I want to think this person just has more adrenoline in the tougher situation and can't help the rhino'ing-does that sound reasonable? or is this ego-armor?

And most importantly-How do I fix this on my small, friendly, inexperienced field?
-Anastasia of Chamonix

[Soo Ma Tai]

That is classic ego-armor syndrome, though it usually takes the form of taking hits from more experienced fighters and rhinoing the guys who "aren't good enough to beat me".

We tried several things here in Stygia when we had rhino herds forming. The only thing, (we tried talking, hitting harder, etc) was to put a herald or two on the field with balls (or eggs) enough to call the hits they saw, good or not. If you have someone herald, make sure they are willing to call anyone on anything. Make sure they will make fast decisions, not wait till 5 mins later to call someone dead. Often though, you'll find that simply having someone in the yellow tabard will make all the difference.

I understand where you are coming from, as I run a realm and have had to do some heralding. I like to fight and that's why I started a group, so I don't want to herald. Try to get non-coms to herald some of the time for you, train you more experienced fighters to do it. Tell them that they have to so they will be better players and see the things that go on from the heralds point of view. It's part of the training

P.S. Some people can be fixed by simple talking to and recalibration on what is and isn't a good hit, other will ~have~ to be heralded.

[Davit]

Unfortunately Anastasia, there is no tip we can give you for having no heralds. As your realm gets larger, you need to have people who are willing to help out your realm by knowing the rules and enforcing them. Being a herald will allow a person to do this without having the other person saying, "you just wanted to win so you're calling me a cheater." If you are the only person who will heralds on your field then start talking to others about it, find out who's interested in helping out and then start training them to help. If you have problems with people helping out, remind them that if more people help out, you can all take turns (you take 4 battles, I'll do 4 and then we can switch again etc.)

In regards to the specific situation, if this is a common occurrence, remind them that relocating a shot is cheating, and that no amount of cheating makes them better (especially if they are highly competitive, which it sounds like he/she is). If that doesn't work, start heralding and calling them on it, or like bo and others have stated, either beat it out of them, or just tell them to leave.

It's nice to be able to have everyone fight, but it's a situation that doesn't happen much. When there are new people around, which is something that hopefully happens often, you need to have someone who can be as impartial as possible there telling people that they need to calm down, that they need to take a break, or to just make sure everyone is safe.

[Chicken]

A couple of other random things to try:

As a silly game which also encourages aggressive fighting in new fighters that we used to do in Rhun back in the day was a normal meatgrinder/cutthroat, but if you step backwards you die. Heralding that is a great way to break in a new herald and get someone comfortable with the idea of calling people dead - it's easy, people expect it, and it's not a tough judgement call to make.

On the flip side, if you're having problems with particular fighters and have talked with them already, one thing you can try is telling them if you get one complaint (or whatever) they're not allowed to call light/garb/etc. Then herald and shoot them down for anything you see. Again, it removes the judgement call part for the herald, and also gives the cheater a definite clear penalty for their actions. You can also tell them they need to call anything they feel - make them actually call light/garb/ego or they're dead and it makes them make a more conscious decision each time.

I sympathize with not wanting to have to have heralds, let alone be one - I know just where you're coming from, after all :). It can seem silly if you've got 6 people fighting and 1 person heralding, but it really does do much more good than anything else.

[bo1]

sadly, as soon as you have a problem fighter you need a herald. that i the way it goes.

[Spike]

Anastasia, why not ask this fighter to herald if they are so experienced? It'll give you a herald, get them off the field for a bit, and allow them a keener perspective on cheating while having to call people out on it.

[Xipher]

I would also consider talking with them about heralding. You can come at it sideways by "testing" them on the rules, especially strike locations, calling light hits, etc. It could be that they simply do not understand the rules correctly.

I used to run into this occationally back in the day. I stretched the rules and heralded disputed shots while I was fighting. Obviously this has to be done carefully, and you should never call a shot you were involved with, but if you have enough pull in a small realm, it can help keep games moving and put new fighters in their place. I wouldn't personally dedicate a herald on a field of less than 8 fighters, but if you don't, you'll need to come up with another solution for problems like these.

[Relg]

That is classic ego-armor syndrome, though it usually takes the form of taking hits from more experienced fighters and rhinoing the guys who "aren't good enough to beat me".

QFT!!!

Also, this guy has been fighting for longer than me by about 4 months.

Rhovanion was founded by Beren Fellspear (Jeff Sartain). Many of you may know him as Sir Artemis, a Knight of Numenor knighted in 1998 at Ragnarok XIII. He's been fighting for roughly 15 years, I believe.

[Big King Jimmy]

Oh, tell Beren to whoop the **** out of this guy.

[Roland Demox]

Oh, tell Beren to whoop the **** out of this guy.

I completely agree with this statement

[Relg]

It was an informal practice. There were only about 4 or 5 of us just wanting to shake off the rust before the first official realm practice. I'm going to call him out on it the next practice, when (not if) it happens again.

Thanks for the help!

[Kerb]

While it seems that everyone has given you the right advice in dealing with this problem.

May I also suggest that you use this persons bad habits to your advantage.
When someone gives you lemons kinda deal. The way I deal with someone that doesn't want to take a shot is to use that as an excuse to practice cleaning up my technique. I make sure I block everything they throw, and all my hits are clean and there is no question of what happened, while always assuming that this person wont take the shot so I get back to guard and keep blocking the shots I know are about to be coming at me. It makes for alot of great practice, and really after awhile when the other person realizes how bad they are looking they usually just take it.

[Relg]

Good advice. Thank you.

But I must say that I kind of rather like the "field-goal kicking his nut sack" idea presented in my first post... XD

[Sir Anastasia]

Thanks for all the advice for my situation as well. I like the hearlding (backsteps) game, ty Chicken. I agree with everyone about their heralding advice. I have such a small crew at times, it can be difficult to handle things in a nice way-usually I tell the group general statements over the 1 on 1 talk with the rhino (although I do this after 3 complaints). What do you guys think of this:

I am thinking about making "penalty flags," where I put up a flag on a pole whenever anyone complains about anyone on a shot. After 3 flags are on the pole-I nominate a herald for 3 battles (that way they can also share the burden), and then the flags come down. Then we start over, and as complaints build the flags will be put up and so on and a new herald will be nominated.

Comments?

ty,
Ana

[Soo Ma Tai]

Go for it, try it out and tell us how it works. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't. Work that is.

[Loptr]

Fight cleaner
fight harder
Conversation
Escallation
Going from combat to "assault" is a questionable tactic and could lead to legal issues not worth dealing with.
I disagree with the hurt them, junk stab them and make em cry tactics.
Bite the bullet and get heralds, make everybody take turns heralding.
Shame them into fighting clean or leaving if you have too. But again fighting with intent to cause harm is fundamentally wrong. "Stroking a hoe" and swinging with intent is fundamentally different.

L

[Big King Jimmy]

Fight cleaner
fight harder
Conversation
Escallation
Going from combat to "assault" is a questionable tactic and could lead to legal issues not worth dealing with.
I disagree with the hurt them, junk stab them and make em cry tactics.
Bite the bullet and get heralds, make everybody take turns heralding.
Shame them into fighting clean or leaving if you have too. But again fighting with intent to cause harm is fundamentally wrong. "Stroking a hoe" and swinging with intent is fundamentally different.

L

You're assuming they CAN be shamed. Some people just don't care.

[Loptr]

Big Jimmy said: Some peps dont get it and dont care.

True dat.
Bel has no requriement to tolerate people not following the rules. They can be told to go the hell away.


L

[Bortas]

Thanks for all the advice for my situation as well. I like the hearlding (backsteps) game, ty Chicken. I agree with everyone about their heralding advice. I have such a small crew at times, it can be difficult to handle things in a nice way-usually I tell the group general statements over the 1 on 1 talk with the rhino (although I do this after 3 complaints).

Management 101: don't do this. The people that are doing it right get frustrated at always being told not to do something they aren't doing anyway, and more importantly, the problem person doesn't get that THEY ARE the problem. Pull them aside, confront them politely about the behavior that needs to change.

-bort

[Sir Anastasia]

Bortas...I can see that. Usually, I call general things when I see them, and often there is more than 1 person doing it at the time I call it out. Don't worry too much though, the group is very new and I don't feel that anything I call out is "old news." The problem with pulling people aside has been this: I ask the person to see me, tell them the issue, send them back to the herd, and then the herd all ask me what happened? What did that guy do? I get annoyed by this and I am sure the "guy" does too. As for straight up rhinos, I usually pull these people aside after I have got three complaints or one complaint and I also witnessed the miss-call. Generally, I try to adhere to the following themes when I hearld:

1) Discretion (I don't yell at people across the field unless they are dangerous).
2) Not my issue (has to be brought up by at least one other person).
3) Politeness (If I can't say it nice I have to wait a while).
4) Timing (Discussions should occur as close to the offense as possible).

-Ana

[Sir Killian]

i like the old fashioned take the hit for them method....
its always worked for me...

[Roland Demox]

*Cheater Blows Off Hit*
Sir Bo points to offending cheater

Sir Bo: Im Dead
Person Bo is fighting: But I never hit you
sir Bo: I know but I just saw that guy and SOMEBODY needs to take that hit


That was an amazing moment

[Sir Anastasia]

Seriously! That is way cool. Did that really happen? Did it work?

-Ana

[Dabbanoth]

I did that once.

[Dabbanoth]

*Spin move, brutal hit*
He keeps on fighting
me: Dead, that was a **** sweet shot, someone should take it.

[xiao]

missile weapons great for removing rhinos.

[Roland Demox]

missile weapons great for removing rhinos.

Truth....Especially Javis, to the eye is the best spot

[p_quick]

why would you call yourself dead for someone else not taking your hit?

these people all signed waivers for me to hit them.

Its like you are a kid and a candy store, and all the candies signed a waiver so you can chew on them. Sometimes the chewiest of them are the best to chew.

I'd just keep hitting them. i like Kerb's method.

When someone gives you lemons kinda deal. The way I deal with someone that doesn't want to take a shot is to use that as an excuse to practice cleaning up my technique. I make sure I block everything they throw, and all my hits are clean and there is no question of what happened, while always assuming that this person wont take the shot so I get back to guard and keep blocking the shots I know are about to be coming at me. It makes for alot of great practice, and really after awhile when the other person realizes how bad they are looking they usually just take it.

[Big King Jimmy]

Peter, you're missing the point, the rhino hider is on the same team as you.

[Dane]

Peter, you're missing the point, the rhino hider is on the same team as you.

They're the easiest ones to punish.

[Roland Demox]

Sorry Peter, fixed

[p_quick]

wait, what are apologizing to me for?

[Roland Demox]

confusion

[Loptr]

wait, what are apologizing to me for?

Clearly you didnt take the "hit" so he is calling himself dead.
Its peeps like you that kill the game.

L

[p_quick]

lol, i know right.

[Relg]

The prick didn't take his hits again! I called him out on it, and apparently, according to him, if you get hit square on with a green-only spear (by all rights a good hit), but then the spear continues to slide, it doesn't count. He didn't take like five hits because of this "rule".

[Sir Anastasia]

Aim for the legs, so you can trip him. *.

[Slagar]

Nah, bad blood is bad blood, and unsafe play just winds up with legal issues and dead realms. Talk to Beren about this, and stop inviting him to unofficial practices. This is what realm leaders are for, and I can promise you Beren is fully capable of dealing with guys like this. Rhinohiding isn't exactly unheard of where he and I come from.

If this kid is a problem at your unofficial practices, then don't invite him. Change the day/time, or whatever, and just don't include him. People who won't follow the rules lose the privilege to play. Trying to rough him up on your own won't end well, I promise. That's what the realm leader and other vets are for. Inform Beren, and snub this guy. It isn't worth wrecking your good time over.