Belegarth

by **Bhakdar** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 10:13 pm

Fighters from Bend, Oregon throw down:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 6511120815

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 9530&hl=en

There's three 10 minute segments labeled Babylon Sparring 1, 2, and 3. Pardon the video quality for being so low, though you can still generally see what shots are thrown.

Critique is welcome. For reference, a list of the fighters:

Dyse: Blue wrap pants
Moses: Gold & white pants
Bear: Black Tshirt, brown pants
Azreal: Black pants, white top
Bhakdar: Tall, pony tail, purple shield
Sipris: Olive vest & shield
Kargos: Black under armor & shorts
Baal: Green/white baseball shirt & jeans
Remy: Black/white stripe pants
Etain: Burgundy top & skirt, red/black shield
Rope: White t-shirt, jeans

by **Arkin** » Tue Mar 17, 2009 11:15 pm

Dont die to Bhakdar would solve 90% of your problems. that to you to Bhakdar

the first female fighter in this video was pretty beastly.

by **Dane** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 7:37 am

Bhakdar, Moses, Sipris, and sometimes Dyse all have solid weapon guards. Everyone else has it too high, too tight, or both. It's no coincidence that everyone else gets eaten up by high crosses. Your weapon guard should be such that if someone throws a hack, short cross, or high cross, you should be able to intercept the shot with your weapon with only a minimal adjustment (ideally a slight turn of the hips if an adjustment is necessary).

Dyse, you have the same problem I did up until a couple weeks ago. The longer you fight, the higher your guard drifts, and as it comes up, your elbow pops out. Not only does this put your arm in danger, it also presents a huge body target to a lefty or a righty stepping to his left.

Azreal, you do a lot of one-foot hopping into shots. It might be helping with the angle, but I'll hazard that staying grounded and stepping to a location might create a better opportunity, not to mention one gives up the ability to move dynamically when up on one leg.
-Also, the cross shot where you throw it over your shield arm will work on people with poor weapon blocks, but a good veteran's going to eat it up.

Bear, you throw a lot of simultaneous shots when you flo. You do throw them at different targets, which is good, but you're completely forsaking defense when you do this. You usually land one of the shots, but you almost always pay for leaving yourself no D.

Remy, your weapon guard is way too tight, and you've got your legs way out front and your body way in back. Maybe you're baiting and just don't get the legs out of the way sometimes, but your opponent's in range of your legs well before you can even think about swinging at him/her with a high % shot.
-Other times, you plant hard on your lead foot, and when they go to snipe your leg, you can't move it in time. If you're going to commit that much body weight forward, you have to commit to moving forward and blocking your leg when that shot comes.

Moses, you've got excellent hand-speed and good feints. You've got great acceleration on your wraps, and I think you'd have even more success with them if you stepped off the center-line more. You tend to create your angles with leaning, and it's working in these vids, but if you really committed to taking space with a step, you'd get even better results.

Bhakdar, you flow in and out of stances and guards pretty seamlessly, and your lateral movement is consistent. You seem to be applying new technique into your repertoire pretty rapidly. I'll have to watch these videos again and just focus on you to try and find something iffy.

I'll watch these over again soon and get material for everyone else.

-Dane

by **Bhakdar** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 11:33 am

Thanks for all the response, Dane. I think your assessments are generally on target.

I'm going to hold off my thoughts on others' fighting a while to get more response coming in.

On myself, though, I know some weak points that I would welcome others to offer remedies for:

1) I beat Dyse and Moses only by putting them on a leg first. They have fast shots and blocking that I would more optimally get around by learning their patterns and how to fake them more efficiently.

2) Related to #1 and being tall, I tend to stoop a fair bit. It doesn't get me killed a ton (as I just switched to a low-strapped round shield to make shoulder protection & low shield blocking easier), but I'm trying to find my balance of controlling people by being tall while not getting arm or shoulder sniped stooping over a gymp or just a shorter person.

3) I'm faking less and using close-range control more. Generally, I like this approach because lots of the fighters here prefer to be at-range speedy and aren't comfortable getting nose to nose. While I can exploit this in sparring, I need to play the fast feinting range game better on the field, or move past obliques quickly while being less risky to my legs getting hacked.

4) (ahem, for you PQuick) I know I lacked stabbing a lot and threw more crosses in this video. Please note that my right thumb has been jammed up and thus I was trying to use shot selection with less risk of re-injury to it. All the yelling and dropping florentine was related to a left hand pinky-jam, as well.

by **bo1** » Wed Mar 18, 2009 12:28 pm

i knew the yelling was a thumb or finger, i can see you later getting snow for it. that sucks for ya, hope it heals fast.

lots of form problems from the masses. i dont know any of them except sipris, and her only a little. so to be general, they have some less than effiecent stances, and like dane said, their gaurds are in some strange places. particularly, the flourtine that has his right arm under his left armpit. i would advise against this. perhaps i am just a traditionalist.

also i see a couple of the major cross, shield on worng side, loopty loo high crosses. those are a no go, but that is just me. plus there is a helicopter in your midst, not sure on him either.

bdar you pretty consistently bait the leg and get it out clean. and in general you apear to be in shape, movement is quick and pretty deciecive. i noticed a bit of hunching, and a bit less leg bend than i remember you having. perhaps i jsut never noticed it before, but you stated that in your post. you also are not using that shield edge as much as i remeber you doing either. perhaps the opponets are crossing so much you feel it is unneccessary. i will ocasionally get killed while edgeing if the opponets throws a really high cross at random. misses my weapon and right in the gut it goes.

that is just the usual, though. nothing that we havent seen before.

i noticed Bdar, that when you are setting up for the stab, you are chicken winging, elbow out. i do this too, i was wondering if the sages here know of it uses, or if it is a dead man walking.

hit calibration, are the lighter than usual, reason is i noticed a fair bit of dark side pulling type shots, they look pretty weak, they throw them usually after a failed leg swipe. a few get taken but i can hardly imagine they have any real force. just a question i had.

another in general. they all seem to be swinging wildly. not really anyhting in particular, but most of the hands are not in the box and flailing.

bdar and sipris are by far the best form in the video. althoug arzeal seems to have a grasp as well, but puts himself in strange situations with strange shots selection.

by **Bhakdar** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:55 am

In my experience fighting all across the country, Babylon is the KING realm of kooky but effective. There are lots of things related to 'proper form' or what "should work consistently" that aren't consistent in Babylon but the fighting par is nonetheless one of the most challenging I've engaged.

I've been living here about a month and am still working on deciphering people's timing and patterns. Especially with countering or faking people up high. When I lead up high, I tend to get hit in the shoulder or leg. Thus I go for more legs and get more reactionary, which keeps me in high crossing & inside shoulder dropping for kills rather than diversifying my kill shot selection.

The field is different. Most fighters here have quick and agile field movement that seems an innate but untrained ability in the realm. Often I'll call a direction to go and people will go the opposite way. They'll go fast and hit stuff, but die or simo quickly, too. There are pairs out here that are devastating field forces. What was keyed in on as "flailing" is more an intentional tactic here known as "machine gunning"-- keep swinging, you'll land a hit. That does correspond with a lower avg hit tolerance than I'm used to, also. People will take grazing or light shots while shrugging or giving the "yea, I guess" face. I also here "late" here when I'm confident it was a simo (the win just goes to who got the more distinct shot). In general, good courtesy and great honor, but I feel it would hold Babylon back a lot on a midwestern field where most people of a similar caliber immediately say light and continue the fight.

Interesting differences all related to this "form" issue. I know a fighter doesn't need good form to be effective, just to be more consistent. I was a good fighter while young just by being fast and gangly with little intentional form to speak of...

Bo, thanks for the heads up about chicken winging stab setups. I'm becoming aware of this, as well as using too much arm instead of sliding in for stabs. I tend to simo or get countered when I stab high, especially against Sypris who is good at arm sniping me. Any suggestions for making my high stabs more consistent and defended would be great.

by **bo1** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 8:57 am

i would like to face a few of them at chaos this year. this isnt like a " i am a bad *" type thing. i just wonder how the styles would clash.

by **Remdawg Killionaire** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:50 am

Dane, thanx a bunch; I'm rewatching the videos, whilst watching out for what you said. I tend to bait as a tactic, and I'm enjoying getting into the thick of things on the battlefield, and am working hard on close-range fighting when one-on-one. My weapon guard is past my shield in a couple of fights!!! I need to work on footwork, so I can go off the center-line more fluidly, and need to balance my weight more consistently, I really use four stances, but I'm a lott've rusty on 'em.

by **Remdawg Killionaire** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 10:52 am

Bhakdar wrote:In my experience fighting all across the country, Babylon is the KING realm of kooky but effective.

more like king realm of kinky...
I'll just say thanx Bo, and Dane for any critique; I'm personally watching the p_quick videos and trying to use it in my fighting more, and it has helped me out a lot, especially when they first came out; I'll have to keep watching them, it's been so long.
I was mostly having a **** day, but I was having fun. I am trying to figure center lines on people, and if I focus really hard on something like good form, or just basics, really, I feel I do a lot better than when I'm just pounding the **** outta any opponent. We will all keep hounding bhakdar for more info, more insight. I hope to see you two out on the field sometime, that's when one learns so much, quicker and generally easier. Forgive me for the long-winded comment. Funny story, in the warm-up battle before this, I got my first ever clean, intentional solid wrap shot. I know it doesn't mean much to people like bhakdar, those who throw shots like that all the time, but it seriously made my day.

by **MeleeMoses** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 11:02 am

Yeah im excited to fight you and Peters fighting styles Bo.

there is chaos to my madness as well though...Its not flaling as much as making your mind make your body move to the wrong spot.....then you die

thanks for the tips!!!!! Hope to fight sometime soon

by **p_quick** » Thu Mar 19, 2009 12:07 pm

alright i just wrote a big ol post for you guys. and my browser bugged, and i lost it....

So i'll summ up.

Dyse, Moses, Azreal, and Rope, you all have no weapon guard. you through way too many high crosses. and your distance control is really absent. you also move your shields way to much and you have no asemblence of shot mechanics, you are all arms. use your back shoulder, use your hips. generate force. think about your actions a little bit more. you might think you are baiting and fienting but really you aren't doing much more then waisting movement, and energy. calm down, relax and use proper body mechanics. and for the love of god stop high crossing.

Bear, you have no left hand. i suggest you put a dagger in your right hand and that will force you to use your left hand. and flo fighters should never cross, so stop crossing.

Bhakdar, i like your shield straps

distance control looks good. and get your hand better. oh yea, and stop high crossing :roll:

Sipris, work on your shot mechanics, you need to generate more power with your swings. and move your feet more, control the distance better.

Kargos, you left hand looks weak. i think you should try using some shorter swords, i would suggest 32inchers to force you to be more confortable grinding on people. it will force you to get a better weapon guard, with both hands.

Remy, you need to move your feet. you look like you are standing in contrete. I can tell you are trying to use some of what i teach, keep developing what you are learning. it will pay off for you. i hope to see you at CW and i can work with you in person there.

Baal, go back to basic swings and shot mechanics, you look pretty new so i won't comment on alot of what i saw of you. keep fighting and keep developing what you already know.

Etain, get a round shield, all you did with that heater was hide behind it until you got killed.

sorry this crit was a little brief and sharp, I had more fluff in my previous version.

But i was fun to watch the vids. keep fighting and i hope to see you guys at CW.

by **Bhakdar** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:38 pm

Here's some more video:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-696729906223645025

Babylon Belegarth Sparring 4 is the name on googlevideo. It takes place a different day with a few different fighters:

Kaber: t-shirt/jeans, long blue covered sword
Sare: Black tie pants and brown teardrop shield
Other fighters showing up again: Dyse, Moses, Baal, Bhakdar, Sipris

by **Bhakdar** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 12:46 pm

I just want to clarify that Baal isn't new; he's just always been very red-sword dominant. He's a solid red fighter and feels awkward with the board (which he was kind enough to pick up to fight me so he wouldn't bust my hand)

by **Remdawg Killionaire** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:24 pm

He also just had a beautiful, gorgeous baby girl, and has been out of practice lately; we used to spar two, three times a week not including the two practices every week.

by **Ralimar** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 10:45 pm

Babylon, you guys are taking waaaaaaay too many hits! I just watched like 10 minutes of fighting and didn't see anyone blowing off ANY hits. I don't think you guys can ever expect to compete on a national level if you keep up this mentality.

by **Dyse** » Fri Mar 20, 2009 11:59 pm

It's something we know we have to deal with as a realm, and as individuals. With training, we feel that someday, we can be the biggest cheaters in the west, and someday, maybe the entire country.

Keep rooting for us!

by **Shino** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:41 am

What's a center line?

by **MeleeMoses** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:42 am

Is my mic on?

by **Remdawg Killionaire** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 12:29 pm

http://streaming.derian.us/part1.html
At right around 6:45 center-line will be explained.

by **MeleeMoses** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:50 pm

Boring

by **Remdawg Killionaire** » Sat Mar 21, 2009 5:16 pm

Moses, you're a great fighter, and an even greater person, but you do yourself no justice by acting trite on the boards, friend.

It's a great video, and like p_quick says in the vid, there is no rules to fighting, there is no right way or wrong way to fight. His video is a great way for people to learn to fight better; you for one have mentioned how much better at fighting I've become over that last couple months; it's because I've been taking his teachings if not to heart, then keeping it at the foremost part of my conscience; and I'm the better for it. It might not be that effective for vets, maybe that's okay, but it's not deserving of animosity or ridicule.

by **Shino** » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:00 pm

Remy...
/face palm

Instructional videos need more edutainment. Fighting vids doubly so.
There has been a lot of sweet advice so far in this thread. Keep it coming guys. We'll make more footage for you to look over.

by **Lokin** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:05 am

Some things I see that are constant overall in florentine:

No need to cross at all with florentine. If you're crossing you really should be throwing a shot with your opposite hand. Remember you have twice the amount of attacks than you do with a shield. Whatever comes on your left side should be blocked with your left hand... whatever comes on your right side should be blocked with your right hand.

A good exercise/thing to remember is to think of a line that goes down from the top of your head to the ground. Now your hands should never cross this line.

Use your feet more. I see too much leaning. Bhak can get away with it given the way he's built... however all your power in your swing is away from you when you lean. I would rather see more more close with the feet.

If you have to block your armpit with your opposite hand... your guard it too high. Really... at most everyone's guards shouldn't come higher than your belly button.

Use your hips to block shots... this actually applies to S&B too... I see too much movement from the hands and arms in order to block something instead of moving your hips.

by **MeleeMoses** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:48 pm

God we suck

by **Soo Ma Tai** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:03 pm

Those who say "don't cross your arms" are complete fools...sorry guys. IMO, don't take twin weapon advice from guys who primarily fight S&B. I have fought twin weapons for years, there are times when anything is appropriate. That said, it is prolly not a good idea to ~start~ in the chamber position (one weapon under arm), but better to start in an open guard. (kinda of the A-frame defense) Then use an attack to open them up as well as put your weapon to chamber, ready for the next strike.

by **Lokin** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:37 pm

You can perfectly throw crosses on your opponent without crossing your hands. Yes there are times and like always there are exceptions... however I see too much overextending from them when trying to cross. And that is bad.

by **Solusar** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:15 pm

Sipris, you shuffle an awful lot. Try using more deliberate steps and less hopping.
Moses, throw some more leg and mid-torso shots.

That's all I have now. I'll do more later.

by **Derian** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:42 pm

I don't have anything that hasn't been covered already, but *, some of you guys are fast.

I'm hella stoked for Chaos.

by **Aleksii** » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:04 pm

MeleeMoses wrote:God we suck

Yeh you do...

by **p_quick** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 7:03 pm

Soo Ma Tai wrote:Those who say "don't cross your arms" are complete fools...sorry guys. IMO, don't take twin weapon advice from guys who primarily fight S&B. I have fought twin weapons for years, there are times when anything is appropriate. That said, it is prolly not a good idea to ~start~ in the chamber position (one weapon under arm), but better to start in an open guard. (kinda of the A-frame defense) Then use an attack to open them up as well as put your weapon to chamber, ready for the next strike.

I'm not a sword board fighter, i have all but given my shield up.

now don't take this personally or anything, i'm sure you are a great flo fighter, but i say you are wrong. talk to all of the best flo fighters in any game and they will say the same. the only reason you cross is because your off hand or both of your hands suck, and you don't have the hand speed, read skills or the positioning to do what needs to be done.

Flo fighting is all about positioning and forcing your opponent to the outside (or another form of "out of position"). you should fight hand for hand like i said in my above post.

moses don't get done on yourself, too much

by **MeleeMoses** » Tue Mar 24, 2009 11:08 pm

p_quick wrote:moses don't get done on yourself, too much

Im going to make you a humble broken man

by **Soo Ma Tai** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 8:26 am

Uh...ok, you must be the expert then.

by **p_quick** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:19 am

MeleeMoses wrote:
p_quick wrote:moses don't get done on yourself, too much

Im going to make you a humble broken man

is that a challange? or just idle chat?

by **p_quick** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 11:38 am

soo ma tai, i'm just putting up my opinion just like you did, all i did was defend my idea. sorry if i came off offensive.

by **Dane** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 4:56 pm

In my experiences, flo fighters that cross up are easier outs than flo fighters that don't. Peter, Spyn, Kerb, etc. have a lock on this, I think.

by **MeleeMoses** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:07 pm

p_quick wrote:is that a challange? or just idle chat?

Neither son...it's a fact

by **Spyn** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 5:59 pm

Well i guess i will bite since i have read enough drivel. Its pretty basic when fighting with two swords... dont cross your centerline EVER. Its usually a very **** bad idea to do so. Against a shieldman raising your guard to cross usually nets a brisk stab to the gut or a darkside at least under your right arm. Why oh why would you even think it was a good idea to do it as a return..or even double strike to the same area. You have two swords use them spread out and striking and blocking different area's. Its about abusing the centerline against shieldman. It does me as much good as it does him when I am properly positioned. It makes him unable to throw to certain area's without massive shield or arm movement...all which make my job of picking him apart much much easier. I have faught two sword for about 15 years. Peter, Dane , and Lokin have grasped the basics of what makes a better than average two sworder.

And yes your two sword does suck * and peter is correct....for the love of god quit **** high crossing and learn to weapon block.

Spyn

by **p_quick** » Wed Mar 25, 2009 10:06 pm

MeleeMoses wrote:
p_quick wrote:is that a challange? or just idle chat?

Neither son...it's a fact

Chaos wars man i'll be doing my damndest to get there, so you can break me and humble me.

Also for the record spyn is the florentine master, he has taught me much of what i know about fighting theory.

by **Remdawg Killionaire** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 12:16 pm

Looking back on this, I feel like the * now. Yay testorone+internet. * * *

by **p_quick** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 1:50 pm

remy don't down talk to me or spyn, call spyn an * if you want, its cool, he really is an *.

and he knows it.

the only reason spyn, myself and anyone else have bothered to say anything is because people asked for a critique, we say what we feel needs to be said, to make you better fighters. If some one says we are wrong or says not to take advice from us because we aren't such and such, is it wrong of us to defend our opinions/beliefs and prove that we do have ground to stand on?

Spyn may have a ruff mouth, i agree with you there, but it doesn't make what he says any less valid. and yea, you are right spyn has been fighting for 15 years, I've been fighting for 8, don't tell us that we've waisted our time foam fighting. we are allowed to put our interests/passion into anything we want. and you foam fight too so don't be a hypocrite. but in the end i'm not going to stop you from judging me or anyone else, i'm just saying its bad form.

We learn from those who have discovered bigger and better things then we could have done on our own. so then we take what we've learned from our teachers and we build on it.

We stand on the shoulders of giants.

Now don't get me wrong you are allowed to believe anything you want and fight anyway you want. we aren't saying you HAVE to fight like us in order to be a good fighter, we are suggesting it. You may look at what we've said and not care or understand what we have to say. that's fine, we don't look at fighting as a game of chance anymore, it is an advanced, high speed game of strategy and positioning. I'll be the first person to tell you to take everything people say with a grain of salt, but in the end, if you want to improve your game, you should at least listen to what people have to say, not necessarily take it to heart but at least listen.

As i've said before i'm going to do my best to come out west for chaos wars And you can form whatever opinions of my fighting styles and philosophies you want. So if you think i'm wrong and want to prove it do as moses wants to do, put me in a hole, shut me down, "make me a humble broken man" I always love a good stick fight and look forward to fighting with you guys and to contrary belief i hope that you guys are better then me and spyn. we both can keep looking up the mountain and find new obstacles and and goals to be achieved. no one is the best, there is always someone better.

by **Soo Ma Tai** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:01 pm

Really, my two sword sucks *, this coming from someon who has never fought me...go **** yourself you bunch of over inflated *. From what I have seen your single blue work is lowsy, the only thing you do is range control, without that you are toast, saw it happen everytime either of you were crowded by the other. You never use your offhand in single blue, what a waste. Your advice is moderately helpful to the average noob at best, stop trying to be so high and mighty, cause you aren't.

by **Mekoot Gorlock** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:10 pm

everyone keep it civil or the topic gets split.

by **BattleChrist** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:30 pm

Don't forget to let me break you a little peter.

by **Winfang** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 2:37 pm

Blah, all of your two swords sucks! Everyone knows the real pros fight with their swords pointed down!

by **Juicer** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 4:24 pm

Agreed, Winfang. Mantis Style is by far the best.

by **p_quick** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 6:11 pm

soo ma tai, was that at me or spyn?

BC i'll try to keep some lovin for you

by **Soo Ma Tai** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:31 pm

Spyn, your post must have been just a few seconds before mine, cause it didn't even tell me there had been another post, yours was just there ahead of mine. It wasn't there when I started typing.

I appologise btw for my out burst, I should have been more civil. I was at work at the time, and * about other things, it just came out in here.

That said, I still stand by my words. I think most of what I have seen, from all of the videos posted with P_Q and Spyn and I think I saw some by Brennon as well, I don't recall for sure, were very stiff, and you'd get eaten by most of the exceptional fighters out here in the west (which I do not include myself in).

I hope y'all make it out to CW, I would like to see how you'd fair on our fields of battle. Plus our night-life is super rockin. :angel:

by **Derian** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:40 pm

Soo Ma Tai wrote:our night-life is super rockin.

I'm better than all of you at throwing up in the woods.

by **Juicer** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:46 pm

Derian wrote:
Soo Ma Tai wrote:our night-life is super rockin.

I'm better than all of you at throwing up in the woods.

I'm not so sure about that.... I know some Western Wars attendees that may beg to differ.

(For those of you who have never attended a Western Wars: Every year it is generally concluded that it was both more awesome and more terrible than the previous year. Awesome as in a blast fighting and hanging out with cool peeps. Terrible as in we all got even more drunk and violent and hurt. This event is not for the faint of heart. Go if you've never been. We never know which year will be the last [read: someone may die.])

by **Derian** » Thu Mar 26, 2009 7:56 pm

That sounds a lot like Melcaorme.

Belegarth

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