Weapon Blocking

[Juicer]

Why is everyone so hard for weapon blocking recently? If you can easily rotate your torso a couple inches and block a sword-side shot with your shield, and easily counter-attack, I see it as preferable to attempting a weapon block or parry.

I mean, really. Yay, you weapon-blocked! Now instead of taking the opening that was there when he threw the shot, you get to swing at the opening that isn't going to be there anymore! Good for you. Also you may as well just drop that shield because clearly it is just in the way of more wicked awesome weapon blocks.

I'm not saying it doesn't have it's uses, lefties and the high cross for example. But lately every video I've seen posted has at least two people commenting that it "NEEDS MOAR WEPONN BLOKKING". And I flat out disagree. I think the weapon block is mainly a crutch for people who either don't have good enough shieldwork, and/or are big-time suckers for fakes.

You may now start calling me a nub.

[MeleeMoses]

BECAUSE JUICER!!!

there is only one way to fight dude....and if you don't do it that way, you suck

[Juicer]

Oh yeah....

[Derian]

I think a lot of what people are harping on is that with the stance they're advocating (I'm not saying it's on the only one), you won't need to move anything to block. If someone throws a high cross to a shoulder wrap, if you've moved your shield to block that cross, it's going to be more difficult to bring the shield back to block the wrap and you need to get it out of the way before you can counter.

Now, if you weapon block that cross and roll your hips back a little bit to block the wrap, you should be able to chop their arm with more ease.

An easy and basic example, but I'm trying to keep it in the realm of 'this is what I believe' and not 'only terribads don't fight like this', cause lord knows, I'm still a terribad and I try to fight like this.

[Soo Ma Tai]

I agree with you Juicer, if you don't have to move to block my shots, I am not throwing them right IMO.

[Juicer]

I think a lot of what people are harping on is that with the stance they're advocating (I'm not saying it's on the only one), you won't need to move anything to block. If someone throws a high cross to a shoulder wrap, if you've moved your shield to block that cross, it's going to be more difficult to bring the shield back to block the wrap and you need to get it out of the way before you can counter.

Now, if you weapon block that cross and roll your hips back a little bit to block the wrap, you should be able to chop their arm with more ease.

An easy and basic example, but I'm trying to keep it in the realm of 'this is what I believe' and not 'only terribads don't fight like this', cause lord knows, I'm still a terribad and I try to fight like this.

I'm not saying it doesn't have it's uses, lefties and the high cross for example.

[Derian]

Ok, so bad example. The same could be applied to someone who's trying to come in for a weapon side hip wrap. By blocking with your weapon that's already there, you don't waste any time or energy and don't limit or expose yourself as much as if you were to move the shield over.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Seems counter productive to me to use your weapon to block. You should block with the defensive item (shield) and attack with the offensive one (sword). Just my opinion. Then there is no 1-2 it's just 1. It's like a single action pistol versus double action. Do I want to * and then fire, or * and fire in one motion. Why block ~then~ attack, instead of block ~and~ attack.

[Izareth]

There is also the more general reasoning: as more body fakes and feints move into use, the more defensive you are the less you'll be fooled into opening up.

If you shift your shield to meet most or all blocks, it becomes easier for a couple of good feints to throw your shield into a spot where it shouldn't be. The more adept you are with blocking with your weapon, the better your shield can do it's work i.e. consistantly blocking shots from your opponent's dominant attacking side.

It may be being treated as a 'magic bullet'. I think it's just an example of good form.

[Juicer]

Ok, so bad example. The same could be applied to someone who's trying to come in for a weapon side hip wrap. By blocking with your weapon that's already there, you don't waste any time or energy and don't limit or expose yourself as much as if you were to move the shield over.

I still don't see the point, unless they're a lefty, or if they're all up in your grill, you can still rotate slightly to block it while striking at whatever opening it creates.

[Juicer]

I'm also not saying I don't use a weapon block when I think it's needed, but, like Soo said, I find it terribly ineffective to always block your sword side with your sword. You could easily be counter-attacking instead.

[Arrakis]

Also you may as well just drop that shield because clearly it is just in the way of more wicked awesome weapon blocks.

QFT. Florentine Moar.




But no, really: I like weapon blocking whilst s&b fighting because it does let me post up and just block every-damn-thing while I figure out the opponent's rhythm so I can arm-chop them.

[Dane]

Being in the habit of pulling your shield over to guard your weapon side will, as stated previously in this thread, make you feint and combo bait. Pocket Stab -> Drop Shot, Short Cross -> Drop Shot, Short Cross -> High Wrap, Short Cross -> Hip Wrap, Short Cross -> Arm Wrap, Short Cross/Pocket Stab -> Shield Edge -> Pick a Move. These are just off the top of my head. If I can get you to pull your shield over to your sword side, then you're in your own way and helping my cause.

I'm not saying one should never guard his or her weapon side by sliding the shield over, but it certainly shouldn't be a first resort or a fundamental.

[Juicer]

Being in the habit of pulling your shield over to guard your weapon side will, as stated previously in this thread, make you feint and combo bait. Pocket Stab -> Drop Shot, Short Cross -> Drop Shot, Short Cross -> High Wrap, Short Cross -> Hip Wrap, Short Cross -> Arm Wrap, Short Cross/Pocket Stab -> Shield Edge -> Pick a Move. These are just off the top of my head. If I can get you to pull your shield over to your sword side, then you're in your own way and helping my cause.

I'm not saying one should never guard his or her weapon side by sliding the shield over, but it certainly shouldn't be a first resort or a fundamental.

Unless of course you have good shieldwork, which you should. Then a counterattack will destroy said combo. Along with good range control, decent footwork, and moving off the center line.

I'm not saying one should never guard his or her weapon side by not counterattacking and weapon blocking instead, but it certainly shouldn't be a first resort or a fundamental.

Most of the advice in this forum is pretty darn good, but this weapon blocking craze lately is some that I disagree with. Better shieldwork, footwork, handspeed, and learning to recognize feints destroys the major reasons to weapon block.

[Arrakis]

How do you propose that I work my shield? What "good shield work" do you recommend to keep me from putting my shield in the way of my shot when I try to block a high cross?

Note: I fight with 36" stabbing tip blues and a 37x28" heater-kite strap.

[Kenneth]

I agree with Dane. However, I have discovered very few people who have the defensive abilities to properly grind down their opponent. Frequently, a rapid-fire offense will overcome the defense, and the purpose is defeated.

However, that is more because there has been a fundamental lack in training defensive formation that has given the appearance of offense being so much better.

From my perspective, I view it as a giant set of decisions. If I do this, they have two options, A and B. If they pick A, they have options C and D. If they pick B, they have options E and F. As long as I can maintain an extremely tight defense, my opponent's offense will frequently fall apart.

In the case of blocking with their shield instead of their sword, I can very rapidly cut down an opponent's options. That is why I advocate sword-blocking.

In the first exchange, there are only two real ways somebody who blocks with their shield can go. For simplification purposes, most people who block with their shield go up or down with their sword guard, else they wouldn't be blocking with their shield. If they go up, there are basically only two ways they will go, and if they go down, there are only two ways they will go.

I have noticed the majority of people, especially those who fight in realms with larger shields attack from the top. Both attacks are defeated with relatively minimal to non-existent shifts, however both attacks are fairly difficult to recover from throwing. One of the options has a nearly catastrophic result, and the other option has a relatively poor future outcome.

Those who fight in realms that predominately have smaller shields tend to go down. That results in one of two attacks, again, one of which can be forced into an extremely poor outcome (darkside), and one of which can be dealt with relatively easily. In this situation, it is a relatively simple matter to force your opponent into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, where it doesn't matter which option they pick.

In other words, as long as you can continually cut down on an opponent's future options, the battle will tend to go the way you want it to go. Most fights rarely last beyond the first few swings except by luck. You can frequently take advantage of a situation by dragging a fight out far longer than they are comfortable with. When I fight, I aim to keep as many of my options available, while reducing as many of my opponent's options.

Once I have reduced my opponent's options, I can act in a manner that will tend to result in very poor results for my opponent. By avoiding common mistakes, I can make the opponent perform uncommon motions.

As a bit of background, one of the fundamental principles in my personal style is focused around defeating people who block with their shield in that manner. It is a bit like paper-scissors-rock. Everybody who blocks in that manner is throwing scissors, and I'm throwing rock. That doesn't mean rock is the be-all, end-all, but it does mean that I'm frequently going to come out on top of everybody who throws scissors.

The people who are the most susceptible to my style are those that attack repeatedly, especially those that attack in a manner similar to the footage I have seen. That doesn't mean my style is better, but it does mean I'm going to keep throwing rock when they throw scissors.

[Arrakis]

Well explained, Sir Kenny.

[Kerb]

The main reason you would want to weapon block instead of shield block is so you are not tying yourself into knots trying to make a block.

The emphasis should not be "Omg Weapon Blocks EVERYTHING!!1!"
it should instead be, "Anything thrown to my shield side is blocked with shield, anything to my sword side is blocked with sword".
This way your shield is not cutting of your avenues to counter attack your opponent and wasting the arm that was already there by pulling both your arms to the same side of your body.
I assume your only really referencing the sword and board style as anyone that has only a single weapon should indeed "Omg Weapon Blocks EVERYTHING!!1!".

[Juicer]

I agree with Dane. However, I have discovered very few people who have the defensive abilities to properly grind down their opponent. Frequently, a rapid-fire offense will overcome the defense, and the purpose is defeated.

However, that is more because there has been a fundamental lack in training defensive formation that has given the appearance of offense being so much better.

From my perspective, I view it as a giant set of decisions. If I do this, they have two options, A and B. If they pick A, they have options C and D. If they pick B, they have options E and F. As long as I can maintain an extremely tight defense, my opponent's offense will frequently fall apart.

In the case of blocking with their shield instead of their sword, I can very rapidly cut down an opponent's options. That is why I advocate sword-blocking.

In the first exchange, there are only two real ways somebody who blocks with their shield can go. For simplification purposes, most people who block with their shield go up or down with their sword guard, else they wouldn't be blocking with their shield. If they go up, there are basically only two ways they will go, and if they go down, there are only two ways they will go.

I have noticed the majority of people, especially those who fight in realms with larger shields attack from the top. Both attacks are defeated with relatively minimal to non-existent shifts, however both attacks are fairly difficult to recover from throwing. One of the options has a nearly catastrophic result, and the other option has a relatively poor future outcome.

Those who fight in realms that predominately have smaller shields tend to go down. That results in one of two attacks, again, one of which can be forced into an extremely poor outcome (darkside), and one of which can be dealt with relatively easily. In this situation, it is a relatively simple matter to force your opponent into a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation, where it doesn't matter which option they pick.

In other words, as long as you can continually cut down on an opponent's future options, the battle will tend to go the way you want it to go. Most fights rarely last beyond the first few swings except by luck. You can frequently take advantage of a situation by dragging a fight out far longer than they are comfortable with. When I fight, I aim to keep as many of my options available, while reducing as many of my opponent's options.

Once I have reduced my opponent's options, I can act in a manner that will tend to result in very poor results for my opponent.

As a bit of background, one of the fundamental principles in my personal style is focused around defeating people who block with their shield in that manner. It is a bit like paper-scissors-rock. Everybody who blocks in that manner is throwing scissors, and I'm throwing rock. That doesn't mean rock is the be-all, end-all, but it does mean that I'm frequently going to come out on top of everybody who throws scissors.

The people who are the most susceptible to my style are those that attack repeatedly, especially those that attack in a manner similar to the footage I have seen. That doesn't mean my style is better, but it does mean I'm going to keep throwing rock when they throw scissors.

Well said, Sir. This is exactly what I was asking for. A reason behind the weapon blocking advice. While I still disagree and believe that, while it is an important part of any good fighter's repertoire, it should not be relied upon, I better understand the reasoning behind it.

Also, depending on your stance, your options are generally more when shield blocking, because you get the new options of counter-attacks against their sword side shots, which are some of the better openings you can get against experienced fighters. Combine this with good timing and footwork and your openings are even greater.

[Kenneth]

Weapon blocking should probably be differentiated. One variation is a nearly immobile sword. This is the option I prefer at range, when I try to keep as strong of a static defense as possible. A strong static defense makes falling to feints relatively infrequent.

A second variation is more of an intercept or moving obstacle, as you slowly cut off an opponent's options. This is the option I prefer when I am closing in. What ends up happening is that the tip of your sword often ends up less than a foot away from your opponent. The best way to describe it is this:

Shield block------strike--shield block------strike

vs.

swordblock--strike--swordblock--strike.

It becomes less a matter of hand speed, and more of a matter that my sword is only inches away from one target, and can be quickly diverted to a secondary target with a minimum of motion. In other words, I don't need to be nearly as fast in terms of pure speed with my weapon, because the distance my weapon travels to block or to strike is kept at an absolute minimum.

That is one of the key principles. Minimum motion. I can compensate for lower absolute speed, by shortening the distance my weapon travels to block or attack.

* Perhaps more importantly, the people who train extensively with weapon blocks often do it in a manner that really capitalizes on its subsequent attacks. That is why they emphasize the block-strike drill. For example, Peter and I used to frequently have "rounds" that would go something like this:

Peter would swing, I would block
I would swing, Peter would block
Peter would swing, I would not block

or

I would swing, Peter would block
Peter would swing, I would block
I would swing, Peter would block
Peter would swing, I would not block.

It was rarely a matter of the first exchange he would beat me on, it would be the third, fourth, or fifth exchange that would get me killed. It became a giant game of "single blue" where he's been training to beat me mercilessly by stripping out as many of the variables as possible.

* * I have noticed some videos advocating a decisive punch to block. In my experience, that has frequently lead to the blocking arm being chopped off.

[MagnusofDregoth]

On your last point: that is very much the case. I throw a lot of short crosses to draw the weapon block, then recycle and chop the arm.

I often fight with a fairly edge-forward heater style, at least against same-handed fighters, so my weapon block is important. But I switch it up, too, depending on the situation. And of course, the front edge of the heater is very useful for blocking as well.

[Brennon EH]

* * I have noticed some videos advocating a decisive punch to block. In my experience, that has frequently lead to the blocking arm being chopped off.

I advocate punch blocking. A decisive punch block should move your hand no more than an inch. Frequently less. It's just about catching the shot before its completion and stopping it before your opponent is mentally ready to return the shot to guard. As a result, this often creates an opening while they try and wait for a physical prompt (their shot impact, which was prevented by you impacting their shot (the two feel substantially different)) which never comes.

[Kenneth]

For clarification purposes, by "decisive punch to block", I meant using a full punch to block, which would be too far out. It was a poor choice in words, but we are on the same page in terms of concept. An example of using an inappropriate punch to block is found in the Rag advanced S&B video at approximately the 6:40 - 6:50 mark, which was the video I was specifically referencing.

[Brennon EH]

For clarification purposes, by "decisive punch to block", I meant using a full punch to block, which would be too far out. It was a poor choice in words, but we are on the same page in terms of concept. An example of using an inappropriate punch to block is found in the Rag advanced S&B video at approximately the 6:40 - 6:50 mark, which was the video I was specifically referencing.

Actually punching at an incoming shot is not a great idea. Agreed.

[bo1]

i dont disagree with punching the shot but with that you become open to the fake and drop on the forearm. typically would something like this. i cross you punch and try to arm time me, i hope i get back in time. then i will return with the cross again, but pull up short and rotate my wrist to my right, then go straight down the slot to your elbow usually.

like all things there is give and take with both techniques. one gives you a better chance to block your opponents weapon away leaving them open. the other is less likely to leave you open if they feint. and with kenny's style, he would rather have less openings vs more shots, which allows him to prolong the engagement. i do not know brennon at all, his preferences are just as valid though.

[p_quick]

weapon blocking is good blocking habits. movement minimalism and as kerb described attacks against the weapon side should just be blocked with the weapon.

If you don't have a weapon block how do you expect to beat a flo fighter who knows how to use both hands. or do anything once you lose your shield.

If you learn to block with your weapon hand, you don't move our shield all over creation, there for as kenny said you don't fall victim to feints and fakes.

once you learn weapon blocking you learn that winning fights, consistantly, is more about have good blocking skills, read skills, and forcing your opponent out of position.

any billy bad * can through shots but only good fighters know how to defend themselfves

[Sir Killian]

i only weapon block cause it allows me to better jam my heater down my opponents throat

[p_quick]

i only weapon block cause it allows me to better jam my heater down my opponents throat

amen

[Roland Demox]

i only weapon block cause it allows me to better jam my heater down my opponents throat

Ive seen him do it. And its still hard to breath when I take deep breaths now

[p_quick]

so stop high crossing