flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Bhakdar » Thu May 14, 2009 2:00 pm

I think the reference is to Ertyk and Kazi. Compliments to them.

I feel Iowa developed as an odd * child of Numenor and DurDemarion in the meshing the movement of analysis and instinct. All your fighting styles are belong to us.
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Elerosse » Mon May 18, 2009 6:24 pm

This has been a very interesting topic for me in particular. Having been in New Zealand for the better part of a year, and not being able to find any remotely local swordfighting groups, I've been reduced to watching videos to get my fighting fix.

I would consider myself a flow fighter, I learned primarily from Peten in my early days, then got chumped by Bhakdar and went back to a strap shield and saw some massive improvements. It is extremely difficult for me to think when fighting; it causes me to hesitate and thus make more mistakes. I notice this a lot during tournaments vs field battles.

I would say I'm fairly similar to Shino in my fighting, except that I feel much more comfortable fighting shield to shield (which I attribute to being a westerner). Being a shorter guy in this sport denies me some shots you over 6 foot tall guys can use regularly.

However, I know I can still learn a lot from technical fighters and am greatly looking forward to hopefully getting a chance to spar with Peter and others at Chaos Wars this year.
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Arrakis » Mon May 18, 2009 10:05 pm

Elerosse: Look for SCA groups in your area. I know there are some in Australia, at least.
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Thomas MacFinn » Mon May 18, 2009 10:14 pm

Arrakis wrote:Elerosse: Look for SCA groups in your area. I know there are some in Australia, at least.


http://www.sca.org.au/lochac/groups/groups.php
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Elerosse » Mon May 18, 2009 11:55 pm

I have, but I live on the North Shore. However, I'll be back to Idaho in a month or so. See you all at chaos.
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby MeleeMoses » Tue May 19, 2009 1:22 pm

**** tight rosies coming back!!!
the next step is to move to oregon with the rest of us!!!
It's a crazy mecha right now of fighters in bend, you need to come check it out!


I would say i am a Technical Flow fighter

i have a move set in my mind as to what i can do to someone(Technical)But when **** gets crazy i usually let my instinct(flow) take over

My styles are based off of every single person i fight. I have taught myself on how to mesh everyone's styles into one that i can call my own. From Cedric's SCA/Hardcore fighting style, to petens drunken master, to bhakdars crazy eastern long arms hump style, I have found that there are no bounds to the way you should fight.

i think all good fighters learn how to mesh both a "flow" style and a "technical" style
that is all
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Sir Anastasia » Wed May 20, 2009 1:23 pm

For the longest time, I assumed that people "deciding" their next moves in great detail while fighting were just making it up (the ability to make these snap decisions). I think this post has really helped me realize that there are different approaches to thinking about fighting. It is so strange, but for me, my best fights are the ones where I had no idea what I was going to do next, but somehow just did it. Also, when I fight a person over and over, my rates of success increase, so that would be learning, but I have no idea what I learned. I guess that must be flow fighting, huh? If I am stuck in this form (unable to grasp concepts by demo or words), what else can I do to improve? Thanks for all!
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed May 20, 2009 3:57 pm

You'll be doing what most of us do, learning by fighting. Experience is the best teacher. Something that may help you on the analysis side is to get someone to film you fighting for a while, and then watch it to see what you are doing wrong...see where you should have zigged instead of zagged, that type of thing. Then look at how to end your "bad habits".
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Gekko » Tue Jan 12, 2010 12:41 pm

Hi-

Wanted to highlight something that interested me about this discussion: This is not a new conversation by any means. I read this thread and it immediately reminded me of historical debates surrounding the different national schools of fencing- ie, spanish as very formal and analytical, italian more flow. The vocabulary is different, but the conclusions seem very similar.

Personally, I see a lot of flow fighting working by using move sequences with very brief, obvious openings that are closed off in non-intuitive ways to draw strikes to blocks rather than throw blocks against strikes. I think it works better in more complicated situations than 1v1, because there is less time for the opponent to comprehend more than the obvious opening with more distractions on the field. I win a lot of duels, I die a lot on the battlefield, and I think it is mostly because I get too focused on one opponent- easier to employ technical tactics that way. Is it easier to be a good flow fighter with more distractions on the field?

A couple of others brought up the idea of flow as a state, call it zanshin if you want the martial arts baggage, where reactions occur without thought and awareness is both complete and instinctive. I've hit this a couple of times, I'm sure most people better than me have too. But practicing to enter this state of mind is something completely different from training muscle memory. Do flow fighters spend time outside of practice of events meditating the way analytic fighters spend time mentally breaking down fights?
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Tue Jan 12, 2010 1:58 pm

Hmm, how to answer this. A flow fighter needs to have some good technique, and muscle memory built up before this style will work for them. I think some Flow fighters think about fighting, what works for them and what doesn't, but I doubt any of them "meditate" on it per se.

The Zanshin or "no mind" state is achieved through first knowing your chops, then forgetting them and allowing your body and mind to make the proper reaction without mitigating thought.

The reason you do well in 1v1's but not on the field, is lack of field awareness. Like you said, you get too focused on one opponent and loose track of everyone else. I was a martial artist, etc and had simular problems because that's how most MA groups train. I still do sometimes fall into that one man focus. Musashi makes mention of this when he states to keep your focus on the mountains beyond your opponent. What he means is if you are focusing on your opponent, instead of what is around you while staying aware of your opponent, you will fall prey to outside influences, like other fighters or terrain difficulties.

Try to engage larger groups at practice, and focus on not focusing. Don't worry about living, just keep paying attention to your surroundings. Do this until it is instinct, and you'll be fine.
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Re: flow fighters vs technical fighters. all theory

Postby Michael » Wed Jan 13, 2010 8:27 am

I mostly agree with Soo Ma Tai that there is no zanshin without the practice to build great skills first. While any of us can have a momentary transcendence on the field where we do things without thought, only those who have practiced heavily can do it with any regularly or for more than a moment.

It’s also my observation that thinking in terms of your team does a great job on building awareness. Personally I learned to think of the team better because I am a loud guy who likes to win. I learned that keeping up communication with my team helped me win. That lead to me gaining better battlefield awareness skills to make sure I had information to communicate that could help us win.

Obviously it’s possible that concentrating on the team like this could cause the opposite problem from the one you have if I was to think about the team to much and about my opponent too little. The good news is that a healthy mix of one on one and team practice can go a long way to preventing this problem.

In short, practice is the key.
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