Runners

[Poo]

Sorry if this is incoherent, its about 2 in the morning, just got off work, crotch is soaked from dish washing, and i just though about this all 8 hours i was there. So, a little background before my question, I started a realm a couple months ago, and we've had pretty steady attendance, 10-15 most saturdays, we're getting geared and garbed up, and all of our newbies are starting to learn to fight. Thats where the problem comes in.

The field we fight on is rather large, with plenty of room to run around. Every time i square off with someone, they begin backing up. Every single person in the realm. If i lunge or move towards them, they jump back. If i give chase, they run. Running away is replacing blocking and fighting skill. And, its not just me. They run from each other too.

Its not so much of a problem, as an annoyance, and i believe is a detriment to their fighting development. They're learning that running away is how they should behave so they can live longer. I'd like to develop a good strong group of fighters, so we can be proud of our realm at events and such, and i do understand that we are new, and some things take time, but i was wondering if anyone else has had this problem, and if so, how have they gone about fixing it.

I try to do ring of death most practices, but it just turns into backstabbing. I was also thinking bridge battles would help with this, or a game where backing up gets you killed.

[Halbrust]

I'm sure as hell no expert. But set up a small (10" circle?) area and run one on one duels.

[Isk]

Cool to hear about what you are doing Poo, I started our realm about the same time and we have similar attendence. I am grateful for the Bel boards as reading what others are doing has helped me tremendously when I felt isolated or stressed about getting these guys to make their weapons, garb, etc.

Most of my newer fighters will stay and face me or the other skilled fighters, if they have a buddy. I am alright with and even encourage this as it means they are working together and realize that to stand and face a much more experienced fighter alone would be stupid, but with a friend they can circle and make it work.

I think this has developed because we always start the day with chaos teams of three (chaos teams in our usage means as soon as you die you go to the regen point and wait until there are a set number of people, three in this case, and come back as a team). I have us do this for a couple of reasons:

First, because I want them to start to work as teams and I think three is a good size to start learning to work together. This does seem to be working with those who have attended for a while as they are becoming more aware of each other and they stick together. They also learn not to be in the middle .

Second, no one is out for more than a few minutes, so it encourages taking hits honestly and keeps people moving, thinking and trying stuff.

We also praise aggression highly and encourage them to get in each other's faces, telling them this is the way they can learn and improve. Obviously this must be tempered, but at the outset they will learn much faster if they get in and do something. We mix it up with other games such as warlord, kill your killer and line battles. The last few practices we have also done some geritol battles, where the 4 most senior of us took on the other 16-25 of them. I think it is helping them understand the importance of rushing and pinning down an outnumbered opponent. We usually finish the night with one or more bear pit rings, depending on how many of us are still there, and this focuses more on individual skill and gives them a chance to get feedback and learn from watching others fight.

I hope that's clear and helpful, it's late here too.

[Thomas MacFinn]

From another similar thread I pretty much learned one-on-one training is the way to go. If your opponent runs away, just stand there. Say to your opponent when he runs away, "If you want me well rested between bouts, keep running. I can rest all day."

For timid people in our group we have actually been pretty lucky. If you have people who will help work with a person it makes things much easier.

With new people we will take them aside to make sure they have a grasp of how it works and I will stand aside, watching them fight one of or more experienced guys...when they are being too timid I will tell them so and then I start barking at them I just yell "get 'em...attack attack attack! move in...kill him!" or something along those lines. When they are standing face to face with someone and they have another person standing behind them yelling for them to kill their enemy...it makes it a little easier.

I'm not yelling in a mean way...just trying to encourage a little courage.

One on one training does ~wonders~ for people when they have this kind of problem. So does praise...if you see someone who is normally timid do something not timid...praise them on it. That will help boost them in a lot of ways.

I tend to herald a lot but I razz the guys hard core. If encouragement doesn't work them shaming them usually does it. We have both sorts of people and now they are all less timid for sure.

.... I think far fewer people are inherently timid than I originally guessed. What I originally saw as timidity is related to the “here's a sword, lets fight” mentality. With a little talking and a few exercises showing what works and what doesn't, “timid” behavior disappears.

As an example, a week or so ago I went to a practice in Indiana and there was a lady there who was not exactly timid but was easily distracted by feints and other big showy moves designed to get her to react in a certain way. So one time when she approached, I stomped my foot loudly and obviously. I did it a couple more times in later bouts than asked her, “Do you know why I'm stomping my foot? It's to get you to stop your advance where I want you to. It lets me pick where we fight and the range we fight from.” Knowing why I did it, she soon ignored those silly foot stomps (especially when I did it far enough away that I had time to stop and grin at her for falling for it) and she also ignored a few other similar moves I threw her way.

On a similar vein, a little 3 man spear exercise I've been working on has done more to show effective ranges between allies than any amount of talking. After practicing it even only a single day, I have yet to see anyone who has done it leave an ally fighting solo by backing two steps farther away than they should be.

In short, people do what they think works. Showing them that a particular tactic doesn't work (and you often have to both say it and show them) eliminates the ineffective tactic. Caution is good. Timidity is just ineffective caution.

The two most common problems I've see when fighters are being too timid is, They are afraid of the sword, or they do not trust their own ability to fight.

Many fighters are afraid to be swatted with those scary foam swords. There really is only one way to break that. Hit them with it. Fighters should not flinch or cower when being swung at with a foam weapon. Even if hit in the head (it comes with the sport). Its kind of like how my dad taught me how to stop being afraid of a baseball in little league, (i was catcher on my team), he padded me up in my gear and started throwing pitches at me until i could catch every one. Was scary at first (bing 12 y.o an all) but eventually i could do it naturally.

The second reason more involves the fighters own self confidence on the field. That can only be overcome by fighting more, and more training. Get this fighter in 1v1 situations and have them how off their ability. Many people are good fighters, they just don't know it because they do not release their full power. Once fighters are more accustomed to the blade however this comes more easily.

these are the two big one's i see in my group.

~Keberos

[Poo]

Thanks a ton Thomas, i probably should have looked.... and not tried to post at 2 am. Thats amazingly helpful.

[Ethereal]

I picked up Belegarth very recently, and I developed this kind of habit so quickly. I think the ideas that have been given so far will help me shrug it off just as fast.

Just to kind of reinforce this idea, the only reason I ever run is because I want to live longer. I die, then wait for who knows how long until I can fight again. I spend more time on the ground than on my feet. If I was fighting more often I guarantee running would be a much less favorable option.

[Poo]

I picked up Belegarth very recently, and I developed this kind of habit so quickly. I think the ideas that have been given so far will help me shrug it off just as fast.

Just to kind of reinforce this idea, the only reason I ever run is because I want to live longer. I die, then wait for who knows how long until I can fight again. I spend more time on the ground than on my feet. If I was fighting more often I guarantee running would be a much less favorable option.

so you're saying battles where you respawn quickly would cause you to fight harder rather than running?

[Dane]

Buy some cones from a sporting goods store. Mark off your field into a smaller playing area. Run over the line and you're dead.

[Arrakis]

Set two fighters up in Block-Strike configuration, but with their preferred style and have them run duels like that. Back foot can move, front can't. Bad for teaching people NOT to move while fighting (a sure way to die quick), but if you don't have the ability to mark off a 10x10 foot area, it works.

And yeah, I spend a lot of time on small fields with new fighters standing and saying "I'm not gonna chase you. If you run, you'll just die tired..."

When they finally quit running and just start fighting, it gets good and I actually start enjoying practice.

[Poo]

Set two fighters up in Block-Strike configuration, but with their preferred style and have them run duels like that. Back foot can move, front can't. Bad for teaching people NOT to move while fighting (a sure way to die quick), but if you don't have the ability to mark off a 10x10 foot area, it works.

And yeah, I spend a lot of time on small fields with new fighters standing and saying "I'm not gonna chase you. If you run, you'll just die tired..."

When they finally quit running and just start fighting, it gets good and I actually start enjoying practice.

thats what i'm going for, i went to Rhun today and was absolutely amazed at how much fun i had actually fighting. I'll try all these suggestions, thanks a ton.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Just to kind of reinforce this idea, the only reason I ever run is because I want to live longer.

May I suggest trying some type of handicap battle? Change the battle in some way so that winning is an option instead just trying to stay alive. Challenge battles (vet alone vs teams of 2 or 3), small number vs larger force, resurrection battles but no res for the best fighters, etc.

A week ago, when somebody else announced a bridge battle, I grabbed my favorite mini-glaive and two big guys who also had glaives and invited everybody else on the field to oppose us at once. It took a few tries before the rest of them were working well enough together to take us every time, but the bouts were fun no matter which side won.

[Arkin]

Dane has a good solution with the cones around the field.

I would tell everyone how you feel at your practice. Tell them that running so much is good but were just wearing each other out and fighting less. If we square up and fight our fights heads up we can learn more and we can fight more. Also I always tell people that whatever happens in that fight we have another fight in a few seconds.

You shouldnt be loosing fights to people if they run away. keep your ground and show them your skill when they have to come to you.

[Atiliano]

so you're saying battles where you respawn quickly would cause you to fight harder rather than running?

I would agree with this, just this last Saturday at an event and I had a ball.
One of the things that I did during a monarch respawn battle was sacrifice myself.
I was legged, and wanted to get back to full health. So I could do more fighting of course. You know the saying, leg 'em and leave 'em. So a lot of people were just ignoring me and walking around me. So what i did is waddle as fast as I could at somebody, and started swinging. out of reaction the guy swung and killed me.
After he killed me I got up and said thank you, considering he was now legged. He then realized what I did and I saw the look on his face go, oh shenanigans. :-D

Plus when you have the option to respawn you can have fun by doing a charge, its especially fun when you do it by yourself, and you know you will be back fighting in a few seconds.
You dont have to wait for everyone to die, which depending on the battle could last 20 minutes. It is no fun to sit on the sidelines for that long.

[Arrakis]

... you will be back fighting in a few seconds.
You dont have to wait for everyone to die, which depending on the battle could last 20 minutes. It is no fun to sit on the sidelines for that long.

Just a point of order: If any field battle with less than 50 people on each side lasts longer than 3 minutes from Lay On, someone, or many someones, on your field is doing it wrong.

Running away is for cowards.


I guess that res battles might be a solution if fear of having to sit on the ground for ~1 minute is the big issue for your newbs, but I know that res battles straight reduce the enjoyment I get from fighting. Either make the fight about winning (Non-res team battles) or make the fight about learning (Res battles with none of the usual backhacking, two v. one kill-sniping, javelin backshotting, etc. that usually goes on in a Res; just a bunch of people squaring off in small one-on-one or two-on-one duels over and over and switching partners all the time), but don't run a Res battle and then make it a "Who can run around backstabbing and javelin-killing people the most lolz" fight.

[bo1]

use rope to stake down an edge of the world. make it as small as you ned to to avouid this happeneing.

[Atiliano]

[quote="Arrakis]
Just a point of order: If any field battle with less than 50 people on each side lasts longer than 3 minutes from Lay On, someone, or many someones, on your field is doing it wrong.

Running away is for cowards.

[quote]

You are right, that if does really last longer than that people are being cowards and running away. I believe that was the point of the post originally was to solve what people are doing wrong.

Arkin: Great advice, communication is key to running a realm, especially when it is a small realm. With anything from making weapons to having a good practice

I am going off of personal experience here. Last summer when me and my friend went home from school we tried to get people to fight with us.
At one practice, I remember vividly a lot of battles lasting what seemed liked forever. In reality it was like 15-20 minutes each.
We would have like 12-15 people fighting, and it was a small field also. Like i said there were only 2 of us with any experience at all, and to be fair we had only been fighting less than a year.
But this one battle in particular still sticks in my mind, because it was such a long battle, for as few people as we had.
We split the teams as evenly as possible, and we got it down to my side with 4 people (the other 3 were brand new) and the other side was down to 1 person. He was also a new person and kept running away from us.
I finally told them to stay back and I challenged him to just fight me 1 vs. 1. He still kept running away, so i threw my shield down. That way he felt more comfortable, but he finally engaged me.

We started doing res battles and people lost their fear of dying as much, and it seemed like they also fought harder.
This is a rareity, and I have not seen anything like it since on such a small scale, and i was just saying what worked for us.

[Chicken]

Two battles that I've seen help with this:
1) If you step backwards, you're dead. Needs heralding, but it's good practice for new heralds too.
2) Speed battle - regular meatgrinder/free-for-all/cutthroat until the first person dies. Whenever anyone dies, all dead people & heralds immediately start counting down from 10, LOUDLY. If they ever get to 0 without being reset by another death or by only one person being alive, everyone alive loses.

But really, cordoning off the fighting field and doing rez battles of whatever kind you want will help the most. It's kind of a viscious cycle, since people running away makes battles take forever, and battles taking forever makes new fighters want to run away and look for backs rather than risk being killed in a straight-up fight. If you confine them then they can't run away, and if you give them res battles they won't mind dying so much. Once you get enough people out of the mindset that dying is to be avoided at all costs you can go back to normal and deal with remaining runners on a case by case basis.

[Isk]

Poo, I am glad you started this thread. Lots of great advice from you guys. Chicken, thanks for the speed battle tip, I want to give that a go at our next practice.

[Poo]

Definitely doing speed battle. Definitely. Thanks everyone.

[The Great Gigsby]

This might have already been mentioned, but they're probably running because it's effective for them. The problem of course is that time spent running away is time spent not fighting and developing skills that will help them be more effective. I stopped running away after about the 10th time I ran into a tree, lamppost, wall, gopher hole, rock, etc. Spending a few weeks in crutches every time I **** up my knee eventually outweighed the benefit of not immediately getting killed.

I sometimes advocate tuf luv. If they're running, chase them into busy traffic and see what happens. This works really well as a teaching aid, but it's obviously not for everyone. Establish an "edge of the world" and if they run, try to force them off the edge. Also try emphasizing team based games where running away is much less likely to win it for you. Spar with them one on one and build their confidence in close fights.

[Michael]

I think there is lots of good advice here. Still I can think of at least one other good way to deal with this. Direct the running in a positive way. Ask them to evaluate why they are running. New players are usually just running to prolong life. Talk about running as a way to help them try to win. Running away from a better fighter and to teammates who can help you should seldom be encouraged. The running instinct in fast newbies can also be harnessed to turn flanks and project threat (albeit limited threat from a new player) from better angles. If you can show them how to use that greater speed not to just increase the time before they fall but to increase the chance that theur team wins, then thats all to the good.

[Arrakis]

Very fair Michael. But, at least in my case, I'm talking about people who would rather retreat out of my attack range over and over and over, even as I attack them, rather than block or counterattack. Even putting them two vs. one, it's tough to get them to do more than dart in for a quick swing and then retreat back out into Range 4. It's just something they have to learn: Standing and fighting, properly, is much more fun!

[Sir Anastasia]

Another battle you can do that gets around the running thing (with a bit more subtlety) is called "cavalry battle." The mongolians have simulated horses by being the only people allowed to stand and the villagers are all on their knees (they still have their "legs" for hit taking purposes). The Mongolians with legs need to attack the cluster of villagers and the villagers can't really run and need to work together. If you kit a mongolian on the legs (you kill the horse and they go down to be like the villagers). If you kill the mongolian with torso or arm shots, the horse remains with that corpse and the villagers can gimp over to it and "take it" thereby getting their legs. Because most people are on their knees, there isn't a whole lot of running on the villagers part (make the Mongouls Xpd players so your runners have to learn how to fight). Also, only do one of these battles a day-the old fighters will appreciate it if they are villagers.

One more point, encourage the dead to fight each other while they wait, they'll get better at fighting and feel less bad about dying. Have battles with regen themes and tease runners. We "cluck" like chickens whenever someone is running away all the time
-AoC

[Isk]

Running away from a better fighter and to teammates who can help you should seldom be encouraged. The running instinct in fast newbies can also be harnessed to turn flanks and project threat (albeit limited threat from a new player) from better angles.

I think we are actually talking about the same thing here. I do not encourage them to run to teammates and be safe, but to work with teammates to surround, separate and distract the more experienced opponents.

I actually think there are two separate, but related things they need to be taught that running away interferes with. One is working as a team, creating openings for each other and knowing how to take advantage of those openings and the other is improving their individual skill with their weapons to face experienced opponents and factor as an individual threat.

*Edit
Chicken: The speed battles worked great last week. The hardest part was getting everyone to remember to keep counting, but after several rounds it was working pretty smoothly and the battles were short and to the point. Excellent suggestion, thanks. I think we will also rope the field down to a smaller fraction this week to force closer, more constant fighting as well. I am also thinking I will restrict Javs for some of the combat as well, to force direct engagement.

[Thomas MacFinn]

My wife filmed a video from last fighter practice that reminded me of this thread. In the middle of the film, when the kid runs away everbody living just sits down and waits for him to run back to us. It's a little hard to hear the audio but everybody out there (corpses and opponents alike) is yelling encouragment and advice to the kid to fight us instead of just running around: I've already lost an arm, how to line us up, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2UoYHL0 ... 3F&index=6

[Cade]

We actually have vets that run like that....Thing is they don't do it because they are afraid, they do it because they don't want to fight multiple people at once.

but yea, i don't chase, if you run you just die tired. I walk, i find it gives me better footwork when fighting because im not too tired to from chasing the person down. In fact the only time you will ever see me actually running on the field is when im about to shield bash someone, or in the very unlikely event that i have picked up the flag in CTF.

[Azgarehta]

With a spear, running is my only defense. I like to call it "tactical distance"

[Slagar]

With a spear, running is my only defense. I like to call it "tactical distance"

Wrong. Wrong wrong wrong wrong wrong.

If you ever want to be a serious threat with a spear, learn to get physical. Be willing to grapple, be willing to put that haft into people's shields, and knock 'em around. Spear fighters who run away are like candy. Don't be that.

If some dude rushes you, choke up on the spear, and start dancing. Block, shove, position yourself. Don't just run away. Falcor is the high king of proper polearm defensive use in this sport, look up some vids on him fighting. Ought to be at least a couple around. So... yeah.

[Thomas MacFinn]

With a spear, running is my only defense. I like to call it "tactical distance"

When fighting with a long spear against a blue sword (with or without shield), in an ideal situation the spearman keeps his opponent in his effective range which is also outside the blue sword's range.

If I am the guy holding the blue sword, here are my most common tactics with my ideal results:
1) Move the spear point a couple inches off target and charge four steps in a strait line.
1a) Target stands there or tries to backpedal strait away from my charge and dies. I can almost always run faster forward than he can run backwards.
1b) Target "shows me his back" eliminating himself as a possible threat until he turns back around, usually too far away to stab me. If we have buddies, I try and kill my buddy's opponent while the spearman's back is still turned.
1c) Target draws a secondary weapon without reducing my combat effectiveness first and usually dies with his secondary weapon still in the sheath or otherwise not pointed at me.

2) Send somebody relatively new with a shield to stand a couple steps out of range of the spearman and look intimidating until all the spearman's friends die.

3) Grab the spear left handed, make a long lunge and swing with my right. I do this one rarely because I am short and don't have the strength to adequately effect somebody's two handed grip with my lone hand, but I have seen bigger and taller people do this often.

As a spearman, here are some things you might want to try to keep my fighting experiance from being ideal:
1) Four steps - obstacles (whether friend or enemy or tree stump), kill me while I close
2) Strait line - zig zag, force me to swing over my own shield, bump me
3) Unanswered charge - make me believe that charging you could get me killed. If you have a secondary weapon, you have two of my steps at most to make it ready and hit me. If I am close enough to grab your spear with my hand, you should have stabbed me already - in that grabbing hand if nowhere else.
4) Waiting - kill your opponents. Spearmen need living allies more than anyone. A standoff while allies die hurts the spearman most. If I can force you to move too far away, I am even less likely to die than if I force you to be too close.

In short, if you have a spear and you run, I'm in charge of how the battle goes.

[Thomas MacFinn]

1) Move the spear point a couple inches off target and charge four steps in a strait line.

As a spearman, here are some things you might want to try to keep my fighting experiance from being ideal:

5) move the spear point a couple inches - learn how to move your spearpoint in a tight circle so that if somebody whacks your spear it is pointed back at him before he takes a single step.

[Azgarehta]

I get physical sometimes, but most times it gets me killed. There's a big difference in how I react to the two places I fight.

In Arnor, where there's a bunch of armored fighters, I try to work with shieldmen a little more and hold the line. I have a nasty habit of trying to pull out of the shield line to face flankers (self preservation is a nasty habit to break), so I need more time with organized shieldmen. Most of the times when I get charged its either too fast to pull up my spear, plant my feet, or do anything. Other times, I'm backpedaling on my back foot parrying shots, choked up on my spear.

In Esgaroth, where nobody wears armor, there's more running. Even if its 5-10 feet backwords where I can get them to a comfortable distance, or its a few yards to the side against multiple attackers. Most of the running I do is against 2-3 attackers to space them out.

[Thomas MacFinn]

Grab a couple new people. Loan one of them your spear. The other one gets a shield but no weapon. You grab something that seems fair against the both of them - blue single sword if they are really new, red sword if they are less inept, sword and shield if they are more skilled.

If the pair kills the lone guy, they win. If the lone guy kills either one of the pair, he wins. It is vital for this exercise that the shieldman of the pair doesn't get to start with a weapon.

After a few bouts, switch weapons - you be the shieldman in the pair, etc. If the pair work together, they should win every time. If they don't work together, they should lose every time.

After doing this a bit, you as a spearman will become less likely to stand too far from your allies to help them and your allies will be less likely to let flankers get to you.

[Thomas MacFinn]

BTW, if you are the lone guy don't get in the habit of always going for the shieldman first. Blow by him once or twice and kill the spearman or force the spearman to run away before going back for the shieldman.

I talk a lot. I'm the kind of guy to turn and say to the shieldman, "Bet your life sucks right now" while his buddy is running away from a charge I never finished.

[Azgarehta]

yeah, i have to do that exercise. First, a lot of times I'm the only spear on the field, and one of the few spears some of the guys have seen. I've been loaning out my spear to some guys and I'm new to the sport myself, so its hard to train people on how to fight alongside me when I'm not sure what a shieldman is supposed to do.

[Tobia Blackthorn]

... you will be back fighting in a few seconds.
You dont have to wait for everyone to die, which depending on the battle could last 20 minutes. It is no fun to sit on the sidelines for that long.

Just a point of order: If any field battle with less than 50 people on each side lasts longer than 3 minutes from Lay On, someone, or many someones, on your field is doing it wrong.

Running away is for cowards.


I guess that res battles might be a solution if fear of having to sit on the ground for ~1 minute is the big issue for your newbs, but I know that res battles straight reduce the enjoyment I get from fighting. Either make the fight about winning (Non-res team battles) or make the fight about learning (Res battles with none of the usual backhacking, two v. one kill-sniping, javelin backshotting, etc. that usually goes on in a Res; just a bunch of people squaring off in small one-on-one or two-on-one duels over and over and switching partners all the time), but don't run a Res battle and then make it a "Who can run around backstabbing and javelin-killing people the most lolz" fight.

I was watching a 15-minute one-on-one match, granted it wasn't Bel, it was a different form of foam fighting. The thing was, they weren't running, they were both really skilled with their defense. They were both doing flourintine. Unfortunately, the ending was less epic than the rest of the match. One of them managed to disarm one of his opponent's swords, and got the bright idea to kick the weapon away...and promptly got killed while his focus was in the wrong place.

But yeah, setting a boundary is good. That and setting up some sort of penalty for running. If they are circling, that's one thing. However, if they are trying to retreat constantly, you could set up a penalty, maybe even say that if they have been moving away for 30 secs, they've yeilded. I know this sounds pretty extreme, but you do what you can. We usually don't have that problem here...again, not Bel, but still foam fighting...since if one of us see someone turn tail and running away from their opponent, we usually end up backstabbing him as he tries to keep his eye on the foe he's running from.

[Arrakis]

... you will be back fighting in a few seconds.
You dont have to wait for everyone to die, which depending on the battle could last 20 minutes. It is no fun to sit on the sidelines for that long.

Just a point of order: If any field battle with less than 50 people on each side lasts longer than 3 minutes from Lay On, someone, or many someones, on your field is doing it wrong.

Running away is for cowards.


I guess that res battles might be a solution if fear of having to sit on the ground for ~1 minute is the big issue for your newbs, but I know that res battles straight reduce the enjoyment I get from fighting. Either make the fight about winning (Non-res team battles) or make the fight about learning (Res battles with none of the usual backhacking, two v. one kill-sniping, javelin backshotting, etc. that usually goes on in a Res; just a bunch of people squaring off in small one-on-one or two-on-one duels over and over and switching partners all the time), but don't run a Res battle and then make it a "Who can run around backstabbing and javelin-killing people the most lolz" fight.

I was watching a 15-minute one-on-one match, granted it wasn't Bel, it was a different form of foam fighting. The thing was, they weren't running, they were both really skilled with their defense. They were both doing flourintine. Unfortunately, the ending was less epic than the rest of the match. One of them managed to disarm one of his opponent's swords, and got the bright idea to kick the weapon away...and promptly got killed while his focus was in the wrong place.

If that is the case, then I would have to say that both of those fighters are probably so far below the skill level of a basic first-practice newb in our system that I cannot even fathom their intellectual deficit. Who would try to kick a weapon?? And how many **** points of armor did they each have and how petrified were they of swinging? In Bhakdar's Right gauntlet trial, he slew some 100+ people (really, it was like 40+ of the first guy in the line and reduced numbers of the rest of the 10 fighters set against him) in 20 minutes.

[Thomas MacFinn]

I was watching a 15-minute one-on-one match, granted it wasn't Bel, it was a different form of foam fighting. The thing was, they weren't running, they were both really skilled with their defense.

I've seen one on one bouts that seemed to go in forever. Both sides were cautious and very skilled and had trained together, so knew to expect each other's tricks. People watching got bored and wandered away to get something to drink. However, when the bout was over if somebody had looked down at a clock thirty seconds had passed.

People get used to 3-5 second bouts. Longer bouts feel like they last forever.

My old camera had a 15 second silent film option and that was more than enough for almost any duel. In the film I posted, we fought a pair of people, strolled elsewhere on the field, fought a second time, strolled and fought a third time in 44 seconds. I was breathing hard by the third bout and if you had asked me how long it took to fight that melee, my guesses would have been upwards of 5 minutes. It took 44 seconds but it didn't feel like only 44 seconds.

[Tobia Blackthorn]

In the end, the one who had tried to kick away the weapon was probably just getting tired, in my mind, and made a mistake he wouldn't normally do. Needless to say, he's never made that one again. They were both being over-cautious for the most part. The one that was disarmed was more comfortable with flourintine, and sets up a good defense for the most part, while the other one is easily put on the defensive if he can't find the opening. I'm sure they've both improved, so the fight would be much shorter, I was just pointing this out. Needless to say, we won't let the one who decided it was a good idea to knock the weapon away get over that match...or the time he grappled me when I wasn't armed...natural instinct from unarmed martial arts resulted in him getting my knee planted square in his eye...still not sure how it worked, but it did.

[Arrakis]

What game was this? You are allowed to talk about other games, here.

[Tobia Blackthorn]

Just a local foam fighting, with rules designed by a friend who is also planning on joining Belegarth. The knee wasn't in game, by the way, just to clarify. He grappled me while I was watching another fight on the sidelines. He lifted me up from behind...and my instinct was to shift my weight. I was only intending to throw him off balance, but somehow I had enough force to get my knees up above my shoulders...where his face happened to be. The other game wasn't ever named though...

[Arrakis]

Oh, ok. Then, yes, I feel confident in saying that those fighters were HORRIBLE. Go to a Bel event and watch any two excellent fighters duke it out. Takes a few dozen seconds at the absolute max.

[Iorek]

With the sudden swell of newbies in Rausumea we've run into the same problem of too many people wanting to run instead of standing and fighting. We've started to fix this problem with regular no-res bridge battles. A couple saturdays ago we play tested using a rule that the battle is over once one of the teams has crossed the bridge, this is great in combating those people who stand back and watch their team die so they can run around the "banks" on their side of the bridge.

Another way I've gotten people to stop running from me is spreading the philosophy of "Don't run from the fat kids they'll make you pay for it later when they catch you!" I had one more experienced fighter who turned tail on me and I shouted "You'll only die tired!", he then disagreed. when I slowed my pace he thought I had tired out and turned to face me, at which point I shield checked him and proceeded to wail on him until he was dead.

My final bit of advice is getting load with the newbies on your team. Shout commands and encourage them forward. I even pulled a Stalingrad, threatened a small flank of newbies who were under my command that if they didn't stand and face our enemy I'd kill them myself. Sure enough the next battle the stood and fought (they didn't win) but atleast they didn't run.

[Arrakis]

Good ****, Iorek.

[Brennon EH]

They are running because the only goal is to stay alive. Change the goal to an objective-based situation and they will try and accomplish that.

[Cade]

They are running because the only goal is to stay alive. Change the goal to an objective-based situation and they will try and accomplish that.

You know, he has a point...

Now that i think about it, i don't see them run away during capture the flag matches. Maybe offer them some incentive besides not dieing tired for actually going out there and getting kills.

It would probably be too complicated to keep track of, but we could do a Gladiator type thing. Mark each player with a color. Red, Yellow, White, and then tell them that the red fighters are the best, yellow are the Average, and White are the noobs. You go up in rank when you kill X-Number above your rank, verified by the marshal. Make the numbers large enough that getting to the top rank would take about a month.

It would at the very least give some meaning to the FFA battles, which right now are just more or less a warm up and serve no purpose what so ever except for the vets to get some feel good kills on the noobs. Give the noobs a reason to go after the vets and challenge themselves and they just might surprise you by learning that they actually can be better than they are right now. Because right now they just run around hoping the vets kill themselves off.

and or.....

Do a tournament sort of thing once a month, or twice a week or whatever. Whoever wins is the Gladiator for that week and gets to wear a special "whatever" on the field for the month, or better yet, give the first noob to actually work their way through all three ranks and win the title a special weapon. Doesn't have to be much, just a nicely made sword or a piece of garb. Most of the noobs don't have their own weapons or garb, and that might be good incentive. Let the vets fight for ego, and let the noobs fight for gear. It would also allow the newer players to show you that they are serious about getting better and move involved.

Just thinking out loud, and im doubting that anyone would want to keep track of it, but it could be an entertaining way to encourage the noobs that doesn't involve lots beatings.

[Gambit Redband]

Objective-oriented battlegames always make for a better fight. Regen battles with limited respawn will encourage players to use their lives efficiently but aggressively enough to make it fun.

A ranking system based on volume of kills would lead to an exponential increase of max/min flails and doors, and reward backstabbers with a decoration that says, "I'm better than you because I wear red."

Tournaments are great for aggression, especially when the prize is desirable. Realms should organize monthly tournaments and establish their own ranking systems based on the number of tournaments they win, and the types of tournaments they win because tournaments can regulate how battles are fought (eliminate the opportunity for backstabbing) and what equipment is used. A small fighting ring would also curb the fleeing immediately.

[Vandey]

Our group had the same issue well one of our newer members still does run. What we did first was we got a archer and told anyone if you run from battle you will be shot. Worked for a few. Then try and pair the new guys up with the more experinced members so they learn it makes them less afraid when they first start if a older member is helping them to learn the ropes. Hope it helps

[Rasheab]

Did you just rez again? Stop it. Look at dates, and if it's over 2 months old, LEAVE IT ALONE unless you have something really good to contribute.