Some Round Shield Questions

[Ramius]

In this thread: http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=31090 it seems like every other person decries the use of a heater shield in favor of round shields, but no one explains their point.

Just for the sake of knowledge (and due to the fact that a lot of information in fighting communities is simply regurgitated), what reasoning do people have for the use of rounds over heaters?

I have my own opinions on the subject and simply wonder what others have to say.

Thanks in advance.

-Ramius

[Kenneth]

The question isn't what gear do the better fighters use, its how do you become a better fighter. The trick is incentives. Until you stop using your equipment to compensate for your skill, you have no incentive to improve. No incentive to improve frequently equals very little improvement.

Think of it like fighting with a handicap. You have a very strong incentive of fixing the errors in your fighting style, or else you die. When you use a round shield, you have significantly less defense, and one of the only ways to improve it is to up your technique. Until you fix your technique, you're going to die horrible miserable deaths. You are forced to move your legs, or else get legged.

The bigger your shield gets from there, the sloppier you can be and still live. You don't need to move your larger-than-round shield, unless there is a fairly large skill gap between you and the other person. You can get away with not learning footwork, and you can get away with not learning how to block. All of those sloppy habits, and you won't get punished for it....until you run into somebody who has fought with a round for several years, and then switched to a heater.

The person who has fought with a round for years has had an incentive to fix all of their sloppy mistakes. If you don't learn footwork, you die. If you don't learn how to block your shoulders, you die. Once you learn the defects in your own style, you start being able to see the defects in other people's style. "Hey, he doesn't move his feet nearly as much as he should, and he crosses his legs in certain situations. I can take advantage of that."

Once again, the trick is incentives. Using a round doesn't automatically make you a better fighter, but it gives you a reason to become one.

[GvK]

Of course, you might want to fight with a heater shield for historical accuracy reasons, or because you like the way they look. If you do, I recommend getting/making a curved heater shield that is not more than "medium-sized." But in general, Kenneth is right as rain; however, there is no reason you cannot become a truly superior fighter with a medium heater shield.

[Kageshiro]

In addition to agreeing with Kenny, another more immediate feature of a round shield is that it is easier to launch an attack from underneath your own shield (ala' Darkside) than with a large, heavy heater. However, I'm not sure I'd always call that an advantage.

[Black Cat]

Some of us also use round shields and avoid using heaters for RP reasons. Of course, I don't follow the "Japanese don't use shields" doctrine of the samurai guys on here, but I still want my character to be coherent. The most common shield of East Asia is the round shield. The Chinese also had other shapes of shields, but the round shield is the easiest to find examples for.

[Satanaka]

I will also have to agree with Kenny. I'd add that I have Squires us a round shiled and a minimum size blue sword to train with for a long while- till they develop their skill level.

Every shield has advantage and disadvantage.

It still mostly depends on skill and luck. Take a good fighter with round shield VS med fighter with 'GODZILLA' shield - I'd bet on the better fighter.

As stated- the round will help develop the overall fighting skill. (just like using a shorter sword to train with)

So- does that help and/or make sense?

good luck

[Arrakis]

I want to know peoples' tricks for not getting frikkin' legged when fighting with a round. I've been fighting round for forever and I still can't protect my legs a lot of the time. I switch between shield leg forward and sword leg forward often and have just built a pair of sick hardened heavy leather greaves, but I'd still like some more tricks for protecting my dang long-ass shins.

[Aleksii]

Bhakdar is using a medium round currently and will hopefully chime in regards to your issue arrakis, I'm short as hell and use a twenty two inch round, my tricks probably won't work for someone suffering from excessive lank.

[Kageshiro]

I want to know peoples' tricks for not getting frikkin' legged when fighting with a round. I've been fighting round for forever and I still can't protect my legs a lot of the time. I switch between shield leg forward and sword leg forward often and have just built a pair of sick hardened heavy leather greaves, but I'd still like some more tricks for protecting my dang long-* shins.

I've found no magic - Footwork. Range-control. Sword-blocking, but only if you happen to be in a very low guard at the time of attack.

Shield-movement is discouraged, as it opens targets. Also, don't be in the middle of a line in a larger battle.

[Satanaka]

"Best Block- No Be There..."

I want to know peoples' tricks for not getting frikkin' legged when fighting with a round. I've been fighting round for forever and I still can't protect my legs a lot of the time. I switch between shield leg forward and sword leg forward often and have just built a pair of sick hardened heavy leather greaves, but I'd still like some more tricks for protecting my dang long-ass shins.

[The Great Gigsby]

Arrakis, thinking about what range you're frequently getting legged at might be helpful in isolating the problem. Getting jabbed by spear from six feet away is worlds apart from getting hit in the shin by a shieldman at close range. If it's happening when you're both in range, try threatening more obviously, so that your opponent knows they'll lose their arm if they try to take your leg. If they still risk it, punish them until they get a clue. Alternately, you could try baiting with your sword leg forward. Sometimes just lowering your guard a smidge gets the point across.

2 cents

[Solusar]

Arrakis I think it has something to do with your weight distribution. You probably have too much weight on whatever foot is in front of you. Keep more weight on your back foot.
You should also consider baiting with your leg since a majority of people you frequently fight know they can leg you. Just watch what they do every time you get legged and learn to react to it.

I don't know much at strap shield fighting but the thing I learned quickly was bend your knees. It gives your opponent a smaller target to hit.

[Arrakis]

Thanks, guys. Keep it coming.

Sol: If I have more weight on my back leg... so? Am I supposed to kick it up by bending it at the knee rapidly to prevent the legging? I do that sometimes, but if I'm attacking...

[Dane]

At what range do you fight? How you should defend your legs depends a lot on where you engage your opponent.

[Solusar]

Thanks, guys. Keep it coming.

Sol: If I have more weight on my back leg... so? Am I supposed to kick it up by bending it at the knee rapidly to prevent the legging? I do that sometimes, but if I'm attacking...

I'd have to watch you fight more but that just my guess. The lighter on my feet I get the less I get legged.

[Aslaug]

Keep your weight on your back foot and as someone swings for it, just sweep your front foot back, almost to your rear foot, while keeping your torso in about the same position. Then you just take their arm

[Arrakis]

Dane: I like to fight at medium-to-grinding range. I use 36-ish inch swords and hate landing a shot with just the tip.

Aslaug: I do that some, but I feel like it really unbalances me. I dislike having to do it.

[Dane]

KK. If you're grinding, you should be able to stuff the shot with your shield, either by jacking the armpit or dropping the shield low. If they do actually throw the leg shot when you're grinding, that's a license to pocket stab or even high cross. Giving a leg for a kill's a pretty solid trade.

At mid-range, adjust your stance so the forward foot is diagonal from the opponent's weapon. A little leg sweep will protect that leg if/when the shot comes.

[Arrakis]

Thanks for the advice.

At mid-range, adjust your stance so the forward foot is diagonal from the opponent's weapon. A little leg sweep will protect that leg if/when the shot comes.

I'm not entirely sure I understand this bit.

[Dane]

Yeah, I could've phrased that better. If your opponent is right-handed, fight right foot forward. If he's lefty, fight left foot forward. It creates more distance between his beating stick and your leg, giving you more time to dodge and forcing him or her to extend further to hit the shot, giving you more openings.

I'll still fight right foot forward against lefties most times, reasons being:

a) Against average to subpar lefties, block-strike is easy and makes for quick kills.

b) If you position yourself properly, you can slide the shield low and across your body to stuff the leg shot and go nuts on the lefty's arm or back.

c) Slagar gets a big kick out of lighting up my right knee, so it's a sacrifice I make for our friendship.

Anyway, the safer bet is usually to put forward whatever foot is furthest away from your opponent's weapon-side.

[Arrakis]

Ahh, right, thanks. I try to remember to do that. It's something I'm working on.

[Slagar]

I still miss the days when you used to come in at me with your sword held at your ear, and your shield parallel to the ground. Those were simpler times...

Yeah, Arrakis, Dane's got you covered. The weight distribution thing is important too, and is my big stumbling block right now. I step in for a strike, put all my weight on my forward leg, and get caught flat-footed when someone crunches my lower thigh. Just takes practice.

As to the round over heater question, Kenny answered it in one. Anyone who claims that big-ass heaters don't offer an advantage on the field is lying through their teeth, but the cost in the long run is atrophied skill. If you don't use it, you lose it, and heaters let you get sloppy fast. Same reason I stopped using my tower at events. I'd get lazy and start getting steam-rolled.

[The Great Gigsby]

I've been focusing a lot on not planting my front foot on the ground and have noticed a huge improvement in sword speed and being able to move my leg back in time to avoid getting hit there. One major downside, is that I find it a lot more difficult to hold my ground when things get down and dirty up close. I've never been that good at grinding, and it seems like I'm getting worse up close as I improve at midrange... I'll need to think about this more.

On the subject of shields, one other advantage to using a round shield is that it becomes a greater point of reference as more people use them. Normalizing round shields makes it easier to teach and learn technique, since a round functions so much differently from a tower or heater. Our sword tech is pretty standard, and I think shield work will improve across the board as we adopt a similar standard.

[Ramius]

More questions based upon the responses so far:

Do you equate heaters with being large shields?

What about smaller sized heaters?

What about larger sized rounds?

Is there anything in particular you feel that a round is more suited for teaching wise over a heater, if the two are of a comparable size?

What about different styles of heater shields, such as "4-point" (a heater with a point at the top), curved top, or "*" (basically an equillateral triangle with the legs slightly bowed outward)?

* Arrakis: If you are grinding, trace and press their attacking arm (assuming S&B mirror matches). Everytime they throw a shot and retract, conquer the space they gave up with your shield. Stand in a position where their only leg shot is the outside of your shield leg; don't let them be able to sweep across the front of your legs. If they go for the lower leg shot, stuff/jam it and maul them.

I'm enjoying the discussion so far. It is intriguing, though I feel that most people equate heaters with "big f'n shields."

-Ramius

[Big King Jimmy]

heaters are by their very nature larger than rounds. Look at it like this:

You average round shield is 28" across. If you take a 28" round shield and put it on top of a heater that is 28" wide, it will fit totally inside the heater. This is because a round is the smallest shield you can get (of any kind of decent shield, this doesn't count your weird bucklers and things) for a given width. A heater is always bigger because it adds to a round. Take a round, now add a teardrop point on the bottom, now make the top corners, bam, you have a heater. You can try to make a heater the same size a round (as in, square footage of the face) but you're going to end up with a much narrower shield that is just going to be frustrating to use.

The difference between a heater in a round isn't just it's size either. It's the corners. Having a corner on your sword side gives you better defense on that side, but a shield for you is always a shield for an opponent as well, you're taking away space you could swing through if your shield was a round.

A round top heater is basically just a tear drop. This is what I use, it's just a round with a corner that guards my nuts.

4 cornered shields are a pretty terrible idea for Bel fighting. So much of the game involves catching a sword and boarders shield side shoulder, and you're just taking all that away and in return for.... what?

A * sounds interesting. But again, why use it over a comparable heater?

Larger round shields aren't common, but aren't particularly rare. Gorlock, our most esteemed president uses a large round. My tear drop is about 32". I think bigger people should use bigger shields, same as tiny little Kazi uses a smaller round. My 32" tear drop is nearly as silly as a 110 lbs 18 year old using a 28" round.

[Slagar]

Yeah, Jimmy's got that one, I'm just QFT'ing his post.

Honestly, I prefer tear-drops over heaters anyways. They offer the extra angles of protection, but don't get in the way like heaters do. You don't have the sword-side corner's protection, but it doesn't get in the way either.

Larger rounds are not unusual, and I don't mind in the slightest if bigger fighters use larger rounds to train with, since it really does make sense. That being said, it's not really necessary. The best example of this I've ever seen is Gudge, who used to use a 24" round. Dude was like 6'7", and somewhere around 300lb. Hell, even Falkor uses a tiny round, and he's pretty freakin' big, too, even if he is lanky.

Mostly, just don't try and learn to fight behind some mega-shield. The better the shield blocks you, the worse you'll be at blocking yourself. If your static shield defense covers you completely, you just won't ever get good as a fighter, you'll never learn footwork or sword-blocking.

I'm ranting now, so I'll stop. My .02.

[bo1]

i heard this some where and forget who to give credit to, but here it is....


shields should be like skirts, small enough to make it interesting, but big enough to cover the subject.

but i agree with what is said here, most normal people, 100 lbs to 200 lbs a 28" round is a great answer. if you are pretty close to that 100lbs mark, a 24 would be more of a challenge.
if you are over the 200 mark, and extra inch for each 25 lbs is a good model. there is a formula in ther i bet, arrakis, oh wait he is busy in the dungeon m aking my other formula i want, i will field this one then.

((your wieght in lbs + 200lbs) / 50lbs)" + 20"= number of inches in diameter the finished shield should be. note, this is not the core size but the finished size. that is a pretty crappy formula, i am sure there is a more elegant one, that would give a pettier result, but this works well enough.

so if big jimmy wieght 300, it is
((300LBS+200LBS)/ 50LBS)" + 20"= 500/50"+ 20"= 30", which is really close to what he would want if he wanted to challenge himself a bit.

i am 250 so for me it is , ((250lbs+200lbs)/50lbs)"+ 20"= 29 ", which is what i normally use.

it works pretty well i think.

[Bhakdar]

I'm really late in following behind Allexi's suggest for input, but I haven't seen much about downstick here yet.

Everything I've read about keeping that shield stuffed into your opponent's weapon-shoulder (assuming righty on righty) is grand especially if you prefer to fight med-grind range. If you're grinding, you need to stuff your shield into their arm/pit as soon as you see them begin to go low. Sidestep to their shield side and wrap simultaneously if you can (grind range).

A downstick will afford you more leg protection at the medium-long range. Just be sure to say "weapon" when it strikes there and cautiously monitor impacts to make sure you're not anvilling.

All in all, if you like the med-grind range and have a problem getting your legs swatted, I'd say your practice should focus on baiting that leg or approaching the fight expecting it to come in between max-medium range. Sweep your foot back slightly as Aslaug said, then slide forward into your opponent immediately following, into grind range. If they've overswung slopilly, you can trap their sword in a low, immobile position. If they're still coming back to guard, you can shove your shield into their arm while you wrap hip, shoulder, or cross depending on what openings are available. If no kill zones, hit their leg and get back out.

[Arrakis]

Solid advice. Thanks, Bhakdar.