Sufficient Force

[The Great Gigsby]

This seems to come up fairly often and everyone has their own take on it. What is sufficient force? How do you determine if a shot is good enough to count? For better or for worse, every group sets their own standard for how a hit is determined, and I think it would be beneficial for everyone to chime in.

Personally, I'll take a shot if I determine that it was forceful enough to incapacitate the target area, provided the weapon I'm being struck with were the actual weapon it's approximating. If it were a real sword, it would have to have caused enough trauma or pain to make me lose functionality of that limb, or otherwise make me casualty.

To me, that is in the spirit of the game. Grazes, taps, flats, hafts, and accidental draws, are all called "light" and to take those is showing disrespect to my opponent.

1.3. The target of an attack makes combat hit determinations.

I try not to have any expectations of how an opponent is going to take their shots. I strive to fight hard enough to simulate an actual fight, but with enough awareness of my opponent to not cause any lasting physical damage to them. My thoughts on rhino-hiding shifted when I saw this SCA video and heard Duke Logan's (guy in red) philosophy on shot taking:



He never called his opponents honor into question, even after they confessed to blowing his shots off. It's on his opponents honor to take a hit, and as you can see in that video, he continues to fight until they were both struck with enough force to yield. I think it's very admirable that instead of challenging his opponent's honor, he instead challenges himself to fight to the end.

In Belegarth, there is no clear line between sufficient and insufficient force, but in the absence of a Marshal with balls, it is up to your opponent to determine what's good. If they're not taking it, play the game until they do.

Thoughts?

And because it's relevant, here are different organization's rules on force:

1.3. The target of an attack makes combat hit determinations.
3.2.1. Weapons which strike with sufficient force can score a hit and/or Injury to the Target Area.

3.4.1 - Hits from hand-held weapons count when the weapon strikes solidly with noticeable force. NOTE: what constitutes a “solid strike” is necessarily subjective and thus relies on the honor of both the attacker and the person who is struck.

A valid hit is any shot that makes contact and stops or deflects at an angle.
15. If you have to think about whether or not a shot was ‘good enough’ to count, it probably was. Always endeavor to have unquestionable honor in the area of calling your own shots.
16. Do not call another person’s shots unless you are a reeve [marshal].

Judging the effects of blows is left to the honor of the combatant being struck by the weapon, unless he or she relinquishes this responsibility, with the exception of clear violations of the Rules of the Lists or the Conventions of Combat. Effectiveness of a blow may not be judged by the opposing combatant, the Marshal, or other observers. Information unavailable to the combatant being struck may be supplied by the opposing combatant or the Marshal, including blade orientation upon impact, apparent force transmitted, or apparent location and angle of the blow’s impact based upon the observer’s angle of observation.
All “fully armored” fighters are presumed to be wearing a chain hauberk over a padded gambeson, with boiled leather arm and leg defenses and an open-faced iron helm with a nasal.

[Solusar]

I like how he just whacks the dude in the head at the very end. Brutal.

[Arrakis]

I always loved that vid. A classic case of "Not taking my hits? That's fine; I know I can hit you at least a dozen more times before you get one in on me." That's how I deal with the rare case of rhinoing I see up here in the Northeast (in Dagorhir, as I've not fought enough SCA to have my calibration down just yet); I'm a fair sight better than most of the young, new fighters that make up the bulk of Anvard, so, if someone's not taking my hits, I just keep throwing, try for cleaner shots, and put a little extra stank on it.

When somebody walks off rubbing their arm and complaining about how it hurts, I just say, "Maybe if you'd taken the first three shots to that forearm instead of calling hand, I wouldn't have had to drill it twice more."

[Dane]

I take solid shots, and I try to be very clear with "light" and "graze" calls. A lot of people will look at you like you're a cheater when their sword flexes over your block and taps your forearm if you don't clarify "light off the sword."

When I say "solid," I mean a sturdy hit that would cause a debilitating wound.

With newer fighters at a practice, I'll usually take anything that makes contact in order to encourage the fighter. As they progress, I start demanding sturdier, cleaner shots. Likewise, I coach them to take anything they feel until their hit-taking becomes a reaction, at which point I try to help them get into the habit of calling light and grazing shots.

I'll often call my own shots no good if I'm not satisfied with the contact. I've found that a lot of fighters take light or grazing shots in order to keep from offending their opponents, so I take it upon myself on many occasions to disqualify my shots with which I'm not satisfied.

When I feel someone isn't taking my shots (which is rare: I assume that if I make any contact with a shield or weapon that they're not receiving the brunt of the shot), I just work to set up a more vicious kill. If I'm good enough to deliver a good shot the first time, I can deliver a good shot a second and third time. If the other fighter seems to be in full "cheater" mode and just won't take anything, I'll go either until he/she kills me or the fighters or herald near us watching the idiocy calls him/her out on it. If the former happens, I'll grab a herald and give him/her a heads up. If the latter happens, that embarrassment is usually enough to fix the rhino-hiding.

[Arrakis]

Yeah, I commonly call my own shots off: "Don't take that, way too light." "Oh, no, there wasn't enough to that one, didn't feel like to me." "No, don't take that, that was flat." (<-Rare)

Very good policy, especially if they look like they're gonna take something really questionable.

[The Lost Celt]

I take light so long as it's a placed shot, I also accept draw cuts.

When somebody walks off rubbing their arm and complaining about how it hurts, I just say, "Maybe if you'd taken the first three shots to that forearm instead of calling hand, I wouldn't have had to drill it twice more."

Done this, personally broke four swords in a few months schooling a newb with thick skin by making sure I dragged the very tip through his body at the apex of each killing blow (he was in maille) *SHINK* *OW!*

Recently had another newbie call a one armed glaive shot light -okay, I can't hit you as hard as I could two handed, but do you really wanna call light on someone who fights mainly red? Haven't had the chance to bat him out of the park yet but it's coming.

[Dyse]

A fairly general motto in the west-ish area is "hit hard, take light".

As an experienced fighter I recognize the ups and downs of this ideal. But I also agree, I'll take lighter hits from less experienced fighters, and expect harder ones from people I know want to hit harder.

[Sir Anastasia]

A fairly general motto in the west-ish area is "hit hard, take light".

As an experienced fighter I recognize the ups and downs of this ideal. But I also agree, I'll take lighter hits from less experienced fighters, and expect harder ones from people I know want to hit harder.

QFT.

I came from the midwest to the west and have found that the Honor culture at Choas Wars and other events to be amazing. My one gripe with Bel in the begining was that I was taking everyone's light shots (off the shield), but a subset of the population was not taking my "stop on target medium shots." This was very frustrating: getting a clean shot on a torso where the blade stops and being told that it "wasn't hard enough." I was very bitter for a while, but when I went out west, everyone took those shots and even the shots that hit swords or shields first (but still wrapped to target). I really like "the three rule" from a post by Brennon. Ideal hits should be clean, percussive, and solid. Sufficient hits require 2/3 of those traits. It keeps me from having to nut shot eveyone who shrugs all my other hits.

-AoC

[Arrakis]

If your shot was clean, stopped squarely on the target, and was an actual shot (i.e., you threw it), it should be hard enough. If it isn't, you either gave up on the shot halfway through, or your weren't using proper body mechanics for your size/body type. I've let shots that I could see were coming in without force on them hit me, cleanly, and then said, "Harder than that." (Usually this is against very new fighters who haven't been exposed to Bel-style foamfighting outside of their own little group and usually, after I teach them somehting about body mechanics and minimum force, they turn their shots up pretty quickly and I never have to worry about them again.) Of course, to use Brennon's thing, those shots are clean but neither forceful nor percussive.

On the field, if someone ain't takin' my medium-heavies, I turn my body mechanics up from "swinging my Belegarth swords" to "SCA Heavy-style". That generally does the trick.


Off the field, or after the fight, I try to talk to the person in question. I ask them if the shots I felt were strong enough were being blocked more significantly that I believed they were or some other mitigating circumstance and I ask if they were just too light. If they say that they were, in fact, just too light, I ask them if they'd show me about how hard they expect to be hit for a shot to count. I let them hit me a few times at that strength, then ask to hit them back at that strength, to make sure we're both on the same page.

Then, if you feel like his standard is unreasonably high, you should discuss how much lower your calibration is (though if you start talking about never calling light or taking all hits, expect to be ignored, especially by a thick-skin) and that you feel like his calibration is significantly higher than that of the average fighter.

I find that there are very few problems in the world (that don't begin with a genuine desire to deprive someone of property, liberty, happiness, or life) that can't be solved with communication.

[The Great Gigsby]

"Hit hard take light" promotes sloppy fighting in my opinion. A shot shouldn't need to be cranked in order to be considered good, but a short whippy tap shot without proper mechanics isn't going to do **** with a real sword. Like it or not, taking light shots encourages people to throw light shots and they usually get * when people won't take a legitimately light shot.

It's up to the individual to determine what's good enough, and the day that that changes is the day I stop playing Belegarth. Take light shots if you want, but don't expect everyone to have the same assumed standard as you.

Idunno. Watch any tournament video and notice the correlation between how good a fighter is, and how hard they swing (and probably take shots). Same with any sport.

[Sir Anastasia]

I take light shots that have powered through a parry or shield block. These shots were delivered with skill and precsion (not sloppiness) and I was unable to fully counter them. The fact that they didn't bruise me, doesn't change the fact that I got pwned.
-AoC

[Arrakis]

I realize that was probably hyperbole, but I've been bruised from weapon hits precisely three times in my fighting career: Once from a series of rattan shots to my ill-fitting borrowed cuisses, once from a particularly nasty flat to my elbow, and once from an hours-long single blue sparring match with Dread, Peter, Kenny, etc.

[Sir Anastasia]

Meh...I'm a girl and bruise easier than most of the guys. I usually get 1-2 bruises for every 2 hours of fighting or more if I am fighting in a particularly nasty realm. But yeah, it was hyperbole. I have had to deal with some tough characters along my journies.

[Ralimar]

Heh, I don't think this is really an example to live by... Sure, he doesn't throw down his stuff and storm off the field or scream "Take your **** hits" like so many of our peers do, but he definitely tags the second guy in the back of the leg, which is kind of like the Belegarth equivalent of flatting someone as hard as you can or J-hooking them. And then because he was * off, he hauls off and nails the guy in the head after he obviously went down in pain.

I do agree, if someone isn't taking your hits... hit them harder and hit them until they stop moving. But intentionally hurting someone is crossing the line.

[Arrakis]

Ralimar, leg wrapping someone is closer to the SCA equivalent of busting someone in the nuts or blasting their elbow, in an attempt to cause a rhinohider to take his hits by inflicting maximum pain with a legal blow. Flatting someone is the SCA equivalent of flatting someone (and a tactic you use when you really want to **** somebody up).

And that last dude was going to his knees to continue fighting after taking a leg shot. He was taking his time resetting because, usually, any opponent who respects you in the least will give you plenty of time to reset in that situation. The badass was clearly not amused by the * and gave him just enough time to not seem to be dishonoring the guy completely, then finished the **** fight clearly and unarguably. That's exactly how I would have done it, except I probably would have tried to cup shot him, at some point, too.

[Aleksii]

He didn't even crank him that hard in the head, he showed restraint in not wasting him in the back when his perfectly aware opponent ignored the conventions of combat and turned his back. I have never heard anyone complain about being wrapped in the back of the thigh, If the shot is available, especially at that range, take it...

[MeleeMoses]

hahahahah that video is **** awesome

[Sir Par]

Brennon's 2/3 rule is great. He clearly defines parameters for a good shot, and leaves excellent guiding lines for calling them short.

Giggles, if your going to go with the "what would this do if it were real" mentality then the only shots you should take from clubs maces or flails are ones that are literally hard enough to break bones. Were a foam fighting sport so of course our hit taking is going to be much lighter then the real world since were not trying to hurt anyone. Also that leaves draw cuts, and then taking where you got hit into consideration, cause all it takes is like 4 lbs of pressure to slit a wrist. Usually for me if the shot was solid I'll take it, even if it wasnt all that hard. Elrosse said it best "if a guy lands a solid shot on me it means he got around my defenses and deserved to get the hit."

The SCA does it nicely by giving everyone a base line for where there hit taking should fall by explaining that all fighters are assumed to be in chain with a padded gambeson. We dont have that defining point so we will always have the question of how much is enough, and it will ALWAYS be different, the best thing we can do is just try to be respectful of other peoples interpretations. If you have someone who doesn't hit very hard (like me) you shouldn't get a "get out of death free" card just because I don't like to wail on people. Brennon's method gives me the option of still by scoring hits by hitting clean and with some snap which gives me the percussion (how I usually hit anyway).

[Slagar]

I'm of the same mindset as Dane on this one. I'm not out here tap-fighting, and I expect to actually get hit. If it's grazy, whippy, or just plain not sturdy, it's not good enough to take from a veteran fighter. I make pretty severe exceptions for newer fighters, and I'll lower the bar if the shot just absolutely lands clean. If I miss getting any kind of a block on it, I tend to take lighter shots just out of shame. I also call off my own shots as no good all the time. The more fighters take light shots from me, the more dirty looks I get from calling light, and that's just annoying.

The one real pet peeve I have is people that expect me to take shots that touched me through a block, when they're light after the block. I don't need to block shots a foot from my body, I just need to take all the force out of them. Anything more is wasted motion, and inefficient. If I block a shot well enough that it comes through obviously too light, then I blocked it perfectly, no wasted effort. You know? It's an economy of motion sort of thing.

Eh, this has been a sore topic for me lately. It almost seems like there are two schools of thought developing in Belegarth right now, and this is the first time I've ever really been clearly on one side of a debate like this. I've had people, good fighters no less, tell me flat out that they NEVER call ANYTHING light, and say it proudly. That's not what the rules say, and that's not the game I signed up to play. At that point it's not combat, it's tag. I'm out here swinging sticks, and it really and truly worries me that eventually people are going to play this game like it's fencing. To hell with that.

[Mekoot Lob'o]

Take everything and you will never get any complaints.

[Slagar]

Yeah, that's one way to do it. It works, people don't get *.

But basically what you're saying is that the old game, the Belegarth of the last however many years, is going out the window, for the sake of making sure no one gets upset. If force minimums have been the rule since before our game even started, why do we have to change them now? If people ten years ago could handle the idea of sufficient force without getting salty, then what changed? I'm honestly curious, Lo'bo, not trying to be a * here. It's something I've wondered lately. You're a straight-up kind of guy, so I'd honestly be interested in your answer.

[Arrakis]

There're pretty significant amounts of Southern fighters I've met that treat "Hit hard, Take light" the way some people treat the Ten Commandments. What keeps the game from getting tappy down there is that all of those fighters DO hit hard, even when they take light, and a lot of the other fighters hit hard, take hard enough, and will call their own shots off if they don't think they hit cleanly.

[Azgarehta]

I'm new to the game, and I'll tell you that it helps a lot when people call 'light'. Usually I'm fighting at the edge of my range, not committing to a blow and hitting with the last 6 inches of my blade when its light.

If I put myself at risk by moving into that threatened area, putting some concentration and some body weight into the blow (step, hips, shoulder, arm) instead of just some limp wristed tap, then people take the hits. When I'm playing it safe, then I am unable to manage the force for a solid blow.

Take some time, a partner, and a single blue each. Hit each other so you know what a solid blow feels like, both giving and recieving.

[Sir Anastasia]

I also support "hit hard take light". I think this really means that honor is valued over the outcome of the fight. In other words, I would rather take your light hit and lose than blow it off to win. I have "lost" many great fights, and everyone has remembered me for my honor as the loser, rather than remember the winner who was cheating.

[Dane]

But if you call light hits light, you're not cheating; you're playing the game the way it's meant to be played. I, personally, would be upset if you counted a light shot from me; I'm capable of better, and I want my opponents to expect better.

I realize that was probably hyperbole, but I've been bruised from weapon hits precisely three times in my fighting career: Once from a series of rattan shots to my ill-fitting borrowed cuisses, once from a particularly nasty flat to my elbow, and once from an hours-long single blue sparring match with Dread, Peter, Kenny, etc.

Ah, man, you're doing it wrong. Slagar and I practically play connect the dots on each other every week. I noticed that two of the names that bruised you you mentioned are Numenorians; get an engineering job in Champaign and come play with us. You can have bruises every practice! It really helps with unlearning bad form.

[Arrakis]

I noticed that two of the names that bruised you you mentioned are Numenorians; get an engineering job in Champaign and come play with us. You can have bruises every practice!

LOL, Change Illinois' handgun laws and we'll talk.

[Satanaka]

Hit taking has always been a subject as long as I can remember. The difference I see is that over the last 7 years- it has gotten worse due to "I HAVE TO WIN" mentality.

I like the "Hit Hard, take Light"- within reason. I also guage my hit taking to whoI am fighting. I'd take a lighter hit from a much smaller person that say from- Vokor. I also like calling my own shots to light, sloppy, not clean and/or clashing. If it's a new person- I might take it and then explain that they need to hit harder. I also will take something that might not be as hard- BUT was clean and untouched. I will take a "courtesy tap" to my back that I was no aware the person was there. (don't want to lose a kidney for calling light).

In my Honest Opinion- Most of our Rhino Hyding is rooted in "I HAVE TO WIN EVERY FIGHT" attitude. Many people have NOT had a good example of how to do your best and still enjoy the game. You can still have a great time and NOT win every battle.

I don't want some idiot baseball swinging a red at me- and I don't want to be a tapp game. So I gues that I range my shots- I like a clean, solid hit.

ALSO- I do like what I have read for the most part. Good input from many.

[MeleeMoses]

Take everything and you will never get any complaints.

Or take nothing and be the best!

[Poo]

I don't want some idiot baseball swinging a red at me- and I don't want to be a tapp game. So I gues that I range my shots- I like a clean, solid hit.

See, i do. I like the fact that in belegarth, you can hit pretty much as hard as you want, and slam, check, and grapple. I want belegarth to be a physical game full of great slams and hard hits, not a game of limb sniping. I want every fight to end up with someone on the ground, or a grapple over a weapon, or that "oof" that all spear users love on gut shots.

I try to teach my realm to take anything that is questionable at all. If they have to think whether it hit solid or not, they should take it. If they were just given a hit that was too light, they'll know it without question. I congratulate clean, hard hits, and good honor.

[Hakan]

One problem I find is that everyone throws a bad shot now and again, even the best fighters are going to throw something too light now and again, and if you call it light some people are going to instantly assume "There's no way I ever hit light. This guy's cheating" and then you end up catching flail-haft in the nose to teach you a lesson (always fun)

[Poo]

One problem I find is that everyone throws a bad shot now and again, even the best fighters are going to throw something too light now and again, and if you call it light some people are going to instantly assume "There's no way I ever hit light. This guy's cheating" and then you end up catching flail-haft in the nose to teach you a lesson (always fun)

Yeah... see. if someone flail hafted me in the face on purpose, i'd punch them in the face with the haft of my spear. Thats not a lesson, that's assault.

The vast majority of great fighters that never throw light are honorable enough to know when they throw a light shot. The people you are speaking of are those with no technique or skill who just hit hard because they think it means they're good.

I've encountered several of these people, and when you call their shots light, they tend to begin sluffing and swinging for the fences recklessly. The way to deal with them is not to hit them harder, but to say: "calm down, take a minute off field, and when you're not going to hurt me, come fight."

[Thomas MacFinn]

My understanding of "hit heavy, take light" has always been that when the blood is pumping and the adrenaline is flowing, if you receive a hit that you aren't sure was hard enough, it probibly was and you should take it. On the other hand, if you throw a blow that you don't consider good enough, say so.

When it comes to blow calibration, communication is key.

I once had a guy swing a two handed sword so clumsily that they were easy to block with my pollaxe. He swung harder and harder and eventually was swinging so hard that I was grounding the pommel of my bending pollaxe in order to stop the blow. He finally yelled out, "Why aren't you taking my blows?" He thought he was landing the shots that never touched me. We got some experianced people to keep an eye on us, they agreed that his blows weren't landing and he improved his attitude and his technique.

On the other hand, I'll be the first to admit I am out of shape and when I try to go without a break when I really should take one, my ablity to notice fair-but-not-devastating blows drops. I'm embarrassed to say that more than once I've realized I am in desperate need of a sit-down only after somebody has said "Are you sure that hit to your chest with my short-sword wasn't good last battle?"

[Satanaka]

This is more what I mean by "BaseBall Swings" (which are NOT advised). Fighting hard is one thing- BUT like you describe below- IS what I was talking about- SO I guess we are in agreement.

I've encountered several of these people, and when you call their shots light, they tend to begin sluffing and swinging for the fences recklessly. The way to deal with them is not to hit them harder, but to say: "calm down, take a minute off field, and when you're not going to hurt me, come fight."

[Satanaka]

Ther are a lot of people that "THINK" they are so good that every swing should be a hit. It's more of bad attitudes and poor sportsmanship. These same people that have some good skill- think that if you have been fighting lesser time than them- you can't beat them. They also have short tempers, tough skin (Ryhno Hyde) and run more new people off as well as have a negative effect for the most part. Belegarth would be beter off with out these types of *.

One problem I find is that everyone throws a bad shot now and again, even the best fighters are going to throw something too light now and again, and if you call it light some people are going to instantly assume "There's no way I ever hit light. This guy's cheating" and then you end up catching flail-haft in the nose to teach you a lesson (always fun)

[Azgarehta]

Every death for me is a learning experience. As long as I can figure out how they did it (or ask them) so I can become a better fighter. People in my realm call light on me a lot, mostly b/c I haven't gotten the upper body strength or training yet to throw good, strong, solid shots.

I'm hoping by Octoberfest to have done enough pushups to get called light not because of my lack of skill, but because of their good blocking and dodging.

[Arrakis]

Every death for me is a learning experience. As long as I can figure out how they did it (or ask them) so I can become a better fighter. People in my realm call light on me a lot, mostly b/c I haven't gotten the upper body strength or training yet to throw good, strong, solid shots.

I'm hoping by Octoberfest to have done enough pushups to get called light not because of my lack of skill, but because of their good blocking and dodging.

Search: Body Mechanics.

[Zeldrine Cold]

Search: Body Mechanics.

QFT

I am a skinny little white guy and was told for two years that I hit like I was a twelve year old girl. Spent the next year to year and a half learning body mechanics and practicing it A LOT! It's not that I never throw light shots anymore, but the instances of them has dropped dramatically.

[Loptr]

I am a skinny little white guy and was told for two years that I hit like I was a twelve year old girl.

Now you only resemble a skinny little white girl.

L

[Ignatius]

Ya Zeldrine, I only call light on you because you're a skinny little girl with good body mechanics, its fun to watch your mechanics swinging lightly

[bo1]

well arnor has a higher than average hit tolerance, i havent seen it first hand buit i have it on good opinion. i am pretty sure those in the realm would agree.

so really it just requires a good hip turn and shoulder turn to generate great power. that and being a monkey helps, or a killer robot.

[Zeldrine Cold]

Now you only resemble a skinny little white girl.

L

Love you too old man. How's the knee?

[Azgarehta]

Let me tell you, fighting against the Arnor guys like Angmarth, Thraka, Gorm, Fion and the like really puts you on the path to improvement. I've stopped by Esgaroth out here in the county to fight with Olos and Kat, and they've got some first timers there that I can use to practice technique on.

Its hard to practice technique when you've got Fenris charging you to beat you senseless.

[Arrakis]

I feel like my technique suffers when I'm out in the boonies fighting newbs and grows rapidly when I'm at Dun Abhon or Dur Demarion or some other established territory of Belegarth.

[Slagar]

For sure. Heavy sparring with one of my sparring partners always sees better technique from me than playing Dynasty Warriors with a dozen noobs. If you can fight sloppy, you tend to, and you need a partner who'll punish you for it. For sure.

[The Lost Celt]

My understanding of "hit heavy, take light" has always been that when the blood is pumping and the adrenaline is flowing, if you receive a hit that you aren't sure was hard enough, it probibly was and you should take it. On the other hand, if you throw a blow that you don't consider good enough, say so.

This is the rule I go by, I understand not everybody thinks this way, each of us have our own personal reasons for participating in this sport, I'm just wondering the difference in opinion.

For me, I'm not out to win, just have fun, I take well connected shots even if they're light, I accept draw cuts, and I'll even take a single handed dagger to the chest in full armour based on the balls factor alone That's just me though.

I do call my hits light, I call myself dead if I deliver a sloppy shot that results in a headshot (and by sloppy I mean it's deflected by the player and results in a headshot and I feel should've been able to pull the blow, since I fight mainly weighted polearm I need to watch out for that or I could really hurt someone - BTW I rarely deliver headshots that weren't a result from deflection anymore, especially with swords)

I love fighting knights and vets, they'll be the first to say "don't take that" or "head-continue" Realizing what's incidental and what's sloppy form, nothing's funner than going toe to toe with a few dozen shots - untill some newbie stabs you in the back of course

My question: for those that don't accept light blows, do you consider yourself more competitive fighters? (i.e. out there to win) or am I completely off base? I just want to hear other's reasonings.

I think that's the main difference in opinion though, but I'll say the more competitive fighters around here are so responsive to taking hits it isn't even funny and they're great to fight along/against.

[Poo]

stuff

I don't take light shots, because i mainly fight with my newer fighters in my home realm. I try to teach them to hit hard, because at events and such, many people do not take light hits. Hitting harder never hurts, unless you're dealing with an archer or some ****.

[Slagar]

It's got nothing to do with wanting to win, and everything to do with fighting the way we're supposed to. I couldn't care less about winning, but I couldn't care more about losing myself in playing our game. Really cutting loose and competing, you know? That's what I mean by competitive.

What it boils down to is that the game I signed up to play is "full-contact boffer fighting", or some variant thereof. Emphasis on the full-contact. So this whole "take anything" crap is not what I signed up for. It'd be like playing a game of tackle football, where half the players are only playing touch while talking about honor and fair play. It makes me look bad for expecting to be tackled, even though those are the rules of the game we're playing.

Does that clarify my position a little better?

Side note: god but I hate touch football. Just needed to say that. Carry on.

[Roland Demox]

Im pretty much in the same boat as Slagar. I hit hard and I expect to be hit hard. Thats why I fight.

[Arrakis]

I too have more fun when I feel like I'm getting properly hammered.

I feel like I'm competitive, but I don't consider getting hit a lot and having to call light on shots a good thing or a particularly competitive thing to do. I call light when something is below my sufficient force threshold; I don't if it ain't.

I call more of my own shots off as light ("Don't take that light crap!") than I call the shots of others light.

[Slagar]

...I call light when something is below my sufficient force threshold; I don't if it ain't.

I call more of my own shots off as light ("Don't take that light crap!") than I call the shots of others light.

QFT