Belegarth

Got a few questions on stances.

I'm going to start this off by describing exactly what I'm trying to portray here. The following images will show a right handed sword and board fighter, nothing else. (Simply mirror them for a lefty.) The type of shield, for discussion purposes, is going to be a standard Edhellen round (28") and a 32" blue sword. Assume the feet are positioned a shoulder width apart.

The questions I'm asking are:
1) What is considered a more appropriate or effective stance to your standards? Every individual is entitled to his/her opinion.
2) In the three separate stances shown, the third has its footing a lot closer together. When swinging for legs, I see some veteran fighters slide their feet simultaneously backwards. Is this a better tactic then leaving weight on the back leg and lifting?

I'm portraying different stances, according to some fighters. If there are other ones, please feel free to discuss the foot locations and their effectiveness in any combat situation. I want solid arguments for and against the stances listed, even the ones that I haven't. I'll consolidate the statements underneath the stances for easier viewing, once the discussion has progressed and add other stances as they come up.

Defensive Stance:

Pros: More defensive, as the name suggests.
Cons: Less weapon range.

Offensive Stance:

Pros: Wider range of shots, longer range.
Cons: Less defense.

Square Stance:

Pros: ----
Cons: Vulnerable to shield bashing/checking.

I don't like any of those and I do not encourage those or teach those.

In Pic #1: it is a defensive stance- BUT turn the right foot 45 degrees to the right and bent the knees.
Point the front foot at the opponent.

Same thing works for the #2 Stance- turn the left foot 45 degrees and bent the knees- BUT turn the hips so that the shield appears to be on the front leg to the opponent.

That is something I have been teaching for over 15 years in Foam fighting and for many, many more in martial arts.

see how that works. Bend the knees- I should not have to tell you 20 times- NO- bend them like you are sitting on a stool.

Spork wrote:Got a few questions on stances.

I'm going to start this off by describing exactly what I'm trying to portray here. The following images will show a right handed sword and board fighter, nothing else. (Simply mirror them for a lefty.) The type of shield, for discussion purposes, is going to be a standard Edhellen round (28") and a 32" blue sword. Assume the feet are positioned a shoulder width apart.

The questions I'm asking are:
1) What is considered a more appropriate or effective stance to your standards? Every individual is entitled to his/her opinion.
2) In the three separate stances shown, the third has its footing a lot closer together. When swinging for legs, I see some veteran fighters slide their feet simultaneously backwards. Is this a better tactic then leaving weight on the back leg and lifting?

I'm portraying different stances, according to some fighters. If there are other ones, please feel free to discuss the foot locations and their effectiveness in any combat situation. I want solid arguments for and against the stances listed, even the ones that I haven't. I'll consolidate the statements underneath the stances for easier viewing, once the discussion has progressed and add other stances as they come up.

Defensive Stance:


Offensive Stance:


Standard Stance(?):

Yes, I forgot to include the bending of your knees. I was actually discussing with a few fighters on AIM about this. I should probably correct this. Do you have a distinct degree amount you think the knees should be bent? Not like 32.51 degrees, but a general idea?

Thanks, I'll include some edited images once this gets rolling. I actually usually place my feet at an angle because it feels comfortable. I appreciate the feedback.

Leaving aside the details of the whole body position (from shoulders down to toes), I pretty much tell my trainees to fight sword-leg forward against another righty, and shield leg forward against a lefty (assuming the trainee is right-handed). There's a lot of thought into this, but I'm not going to type a full essay at 11:00 pm. Leave it said that this is pretty much the modern Numenorian school of doing things, and I've found it works fairly well.

There are some exceptions, and Dane may or may not hop on here yelling about fighting high-end vs. low-end lefties offensively, but if you're good enough to pull that off, you're probably not going to benefit much from a text-only thread on the message boards. For 99% of fighters, that's the rule you ought to apply, imho.

Brennon EH wrote:Spyn and I did a breakdown of the most basic stances used in foam combat: http://www.youtube.com/brennoneh

Grist for the mill.

I belive Brennon meant to post this here.

1 and 2 have a pretty clear purpose, but I don't get 3. You square yourself up making it difficult to bend your knees and impossible to brace for hard impacts from the front (and the back, but we aren't allowed to do that). In addition to that it puts both of your legs in more or less the same plane, there by putting both of them in the kill zone. Finally, it forces your movements to be blocky and obvious. You cannot traverse smoothly and quickly, nor can you adjust as rapidly to the other fighters movements. Perhaps there is a reason and I'm just not seeing it.

Regardless of the stance you prefer, what I have found is that switching seamlessly between 1 and 2, combined with changes in the height of your stance, is a very effective strategy.

In response to your last question about sliding both feet back together, I first thought of Sir Kenny. He explains that moving both feet back at the same time moves your lower body out of range while your upper body, especially your sword arm, remains in range and able to strike your opponent.

The problem with being on one foot at any time during a fight is that you forfeit your capacity for footwork. For example, if I swing at your leg and take a small step forward, you are now on one foot anchored to that position. I now have complete control of the fight because I am in range, I can strike you, I can move, but you cannot.

The other important point with sliding both feet back simultaneously is that you can quickly spring forward from that out-of-range position into a very close in-range position. You could choose to move to either side or straight forward, but either way you maintain your advantage.

I hope my explanation is clear enough. This would be much easier to portray in real life, so ask Sir Kenny about it sometime.

I can't think of a situation where I would be at an advantage with both feet parallel, doing that just begs to have someone close the gap and murder you or bash you on your *.

Slagar, I find the opposite is true for me. When I'm fighting a same side opponent, I prefer to keep my on side foot forward. It gives me more options to move and control the fight from the inside, rather than relying on lefty-fu to win the fight. Maybe a beginner will survive longer with their off side foot forward (this was true for me), but I think they'll be handicapping themselves unless they learn how to use both. Off side can be better for finding angles to attack from.

But it's really just a matter of preference and style. I've noticed Elwrath fights a lot with his off side forward.

I tend to fight sword-foot forward a lot more these days, but it took me over a hundred hours of practicing it before it was anything but suicide. By the time people are good enough to pull it off, I've no business training them anyways.

So yeah, it's possible, but generally a bad idea for anyone this side of a veteran (I'm talking Galin/Winfang/Shadow sort of fighter, here). And if you're a veteran, you wouldn't be taking my advice anyway, no?

But yeah, Giggles, in the long run, sword-foot forward offers some pretty enticing possibilities.

Giggles wrote:I can't think of a situation where I would be at an advantage with both feet parallel, doing that just begs to have someone close the gap and murder you or bash you on your *.

I completely agree.

However, I'm not saying the feet should be completely parallel in this stance, but more or less closer together. I've only seen a handful of fighters fight this way, but as Gambit mentioned I believe that Kenny might be one of the only "veteran" fighters. He might not even fight this way, but a fighter from Numenor who has been fighting down here uses it occasionally.

I commonly fight with my sword side leg forwards because it offers more offensive attacks and can sometimes fool fighters on the range of your weapon. This is more or less true with newer fighters I've come across. It also tends to offer a much wider range of shots.

To be clear, Giggles and I are left-handed. This changes everything in terms of stance. Lefties have different needs and considerations when dealing with stances.

And yeah, whole parallel stance thing is a little misleading. Kenny has a very slightly staggered stance, but his feet are never actually parallel. He's just willing to provide a wider target, because of the reach and positioning it gives him. I hope he hops on here and explains it, because he tends to do that better than I do.

I picked up on it. I've had the time to fight against an above average lefty pretty much my entire fighting career so I know where you're coming from.

I've been practicing fake lefty a bit, but it's like starting from scratch.

I meant to display them staggered, which they kinda are. I'm just looking for more pro's and con's so whenever people stumble upon this thread they can look and see which each stance offers compared to the next. I was trying to use something visual, but obviously without the 45 degree angle on the rear foot, I failed. I'll edit them shortly.

A better word for standard stance is square stance. Most people learn that the standard stance is defensive stance. It's the stance I use primarily, and then just as the name suggests I switch to offensive when I'm more aggressive.

it's so hard for me to fight shield-leg forward, but versatility is key

Good discussion, here.

Remember that Kenny fights with a longer sword than many fighters do.


I like to put whichever leg is farther from my opponent's sword forward. It helps keep my legs safe.

But both have their uses against either-handed fighters...

Kenny's stance varies widely, depending on the caliber and style of the fighter he's engaging.

Offensive stance gives you better range, protects your legs better against a same-handed fighter, creates a lot of options for shield-side attacks, and provides more lucrative opportunities for block-strike counters, since an offensive stance does a good job of baiting crossovers from same-handed fighters and sword-side shots from opposite-handed fighters. Forward movement tends to be better since most people's dominant leg is the same as their dominant hand.

Defensive stance puts more of you behind your shield, disguises your range (d-stance enables a passing step to close safely), creates a good situation for the pocket stab, and makes for more easily powered wraps, since your sword-side hip is situated to the rear.

It's not a superiority thing, and you should switch up your stance as the situation dictates. For training purposes, O-stance and D-stance will teach you different things, so do them both.

Dane's Lefty philosophy
*If the lefty's unfamiliar, line up in defensive stance.
-You don't know what sort of shots he/she throws, so putting more of your body behind the shield will give you better longevity to feel out the fight.
*If the lefty has longer range than you, line up in defensive stance.
-You'll protect your legs better, putting your lead leg further away from his stick. Use a passing step to close rapidly.
*If the lefty tends to throw high, go offensive stance.
-By putting your weapon in a position to block more shots, you create opportunities for block-strike counters.
*Get that weapon guard over your hip.
-Lefties love it when you let them just light up your hip, so for the love of your god, protect your hip with your sword and stop chambering your arm like that lefty's going to throw a highcross to your sword side.

That said, in practice, I'll fight lefties sword-side forward; you see what shots they'll throw when you're closing, and when you learn to defend against those, you'll be able to create some unique opportunities for yourself.

<3,

Dane

I don't do it very often, but if it Does pop up, this is how I use a version of #3:

If I saw this stance- i'd charge with a shield bash...

Thomas MacFinn wrote:

Actually, if the knees are bent properly, that stance is ideal for taking shield bashes, especially if they come strait up that line going through the left foot. When I drop in that stance my biggest probem is getting hit in the head: it is quite low.

Dane is correct. My style varies largely based upon who I am fighting. My basic fighting stance is right foot forward, knees bent, with a pretty good distance between my feet.

I do not recommend beginning a fight in "square stance", although my basic reasons for shifting into that stance are outlined by Gambit. If I am standing with my feet close together, it typically means I'm not taking the fight very seriously. I'm not particularly competitive(see:Lazy), so that means most of the time.

A video of me more seriously fighting is about 30 seconds into the Wolfpack 2009 opener video by Dac. My stance shifts into the square stance, and then right back out to evade leg shots thrown by Xiao. My legs are defended by my footwork, and my body is defended by my shield and sword.

As for a technical evaluation on stance merits, Dane's post is informative.

Kenneth wrote: My legs are defended by my footwork, and my body is defended by my shield and sword.

This is the secret to perfect defense, right freakin' here.

In case anyone was wondering, this is 90% of Numenor's school of fighting. If I could get every fighter I teach to master this, the whole sport would change. It sounds simple, but try it. For one practice, don't block your legs, ever. Just move 'em out of the way, and keep your upper guard where it belongs. Don't move your shield to block your sword-side, but sword-block instead. It's ridiculous how effective it is.

Slagar: Good advice. But what about when I'm closed and grinding? I throw pommel blocks and shield-drop blocks to protect my legs if I need to in that sort of situation where I don't feel like I can move my legs out of the way; is there a better way?

Ideally, when you're closed and grinding, your board work is going to prevent your opponent from throwing any shots. You'll accomplish this by planting your shield edge into your opponent's armpit, hopefully hard enough to turn him/her a little bit to facilitate an easy wrap. However, if you do find it necessary to block low, you can drop your hips and shoot the sword/board down to receive the shot. If you just throw your arm down, it typically won't reach far or fast enough, so dropping your hips increases your chance of success.

Choking up on your handle when in tight will give an extra 5-8" of defense, usually, so if you're getting tight on a lefty, try to always choke up.

Slagar wrote:In case anyone was wondering, this is 90% of Numenor's school of fighting.

The other 10% is our special Numenorian gloves, our special Numenorian armor, and our secret combat techniques: the Numenorian 1-2 and the Numenorian 5-step.

Yep, Dane's got your answer. Drop that stance. If you want to close/grind and you're worried about leg shots, your hips should be about 2.5 feet off the ground, and you should be coming up at your opponent.

Roll your shield back a bit to cover high wraps, get a good vertical plane of defense off the sword guard, drop the hips, shoot forward, catch the shots they throw, then shoot upwards to freeze 'em. After that, take your pick, they're not going anywhere. Throughout all of this, your sword and shield are still covering your upper body, you're just moving your center of mass around to where you want it to be. If people are swinging low, start low and catch it. Don't ever punch downwards with that shield, it just makes you look like candy to those of us who like to throw shoulder shots.

And for the record, I'm 6'3", so if I can drop my hips to a low stance, anybody can.

Thanks, guys.

Slagar: If I punch my shield down, it's a feint. And I'm 6'1"+ and fighting mostly <5'6" fighters right now, so. But I'm workin' on it.

Oh, and Rogue grip is my default grip, so I do catch a lot of stuff on my pommel/underhandle.

Heh, no worries, man. I actually don't use rogue grip much, I prefer a modified saber grip down a little lower on an extended handle. I'm a Numenorian range * by nature.