Belegarth

by **Tonaho** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 2:26 am

Okay, I've finally started working with a sword rather than just my semi-famous "cheater spear". (I heard things at Samhain) Even with just the spear I was getting some bothersome pains in my wrist, though within an hour after fighting it fades away. Now that I've picked up my first blue again and started swinging it, my wrists are even more quickly bothered and for a longer time.

I've finally started getting a wrist roller together, but after a few rolls it always slips back around and falls down. Feels good to actually get some exercise to the arms, but is that just from a lack of grip? I don't lose the handle, just the rope/weight all falls back down. How can I properly make and use a wrist roller?

by **The Bruce** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:19 am

Drill a hole through the center of it, run your rope through it, and tie it off. No more slippage.

by **varadin** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 9:59 am

if your wrists hurt you are doing something wrong. Them being sore afterwards is muscle building normally. Them hurting during use is you doing it wrong.

Im guessing you are using your wrist to much in your swing. Remember the power of your shots come from your legs, back and shoulders. Your arm is where your aim comes from. If they hurt from wrap shots you are really doing something wrong

by **Tonaho** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 4:40 pm

The rope isn't slipping entirely off. I'm just not sure if I'm doing it right. will the rope end up wrapped around one end of the handle, or more like around my hand? For some reason how it works hasn't clicked quite right in my head yet.

by **The Bruce** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:16 pm

Uh, your roller handle should be long enough that the rope winds up into a coil in the center, between your hands. If it starts to creep too close to one of your hands, tip it the other way so it winds on top of itself back to the center. Like this guy:

by **Tonaho** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 5:59 pm

Aha. So it's both hands at the same time on one roller. Now I feel very silly.

Well, now it makes sense and I'll be working with one finally. Thanks guys.

by **The Bruce** » Sat Oct 10, 2009 8:54 pm

I don't want to know. I don't. :neutral:

by **Tonaho** » Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:20 am

I kind of thought the handle was to be held in one hand, pointed at the ground, as you tried to sort of "swirl" it around the rope, till the rope was all coiled up on the handle.

See how badly my mind interprets exercise when it's not actually SHOWN to me? I'm surprised I get the concept of a pull-up. I shy away from most actual exercise equipment because I'm pretty sure that I'll just end up stuck tangled in the machine for a couple hours till someone comes along to free me. :spear:

by **Arrakis** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:12 am

Tonaho, thank you for the laugh. I needed that.

Good luck with your new and improved wrist rollers.

by **Slagar** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:26 am

http://www.walmart.com/catalog/product. ... d=10270003

Hey look, cheap and at Wal-Mart. How about that.

I can't make anything. It depresses the hell out of me. On the upside, finding cheap and durable commercial options makes for an interesting scavenger hunt.

by **Tonaho** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:21 pm

No problem Arrakis. I process things weird, and it leads to interesting turnouts.

Yeah, that piece is pretty cheap, but in relation to my wallet... I have about sixteen bucks to my name, at present.

by **Arrakis** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 12:30 pm

Drill a hole in the middle of a piece of 3/4" PVC pipe 18" long. Tie a knot in the end of a rope, drop the other end through the hole. Tie a heavy thing (like a gallon jug with water in it) to the other end.

Ta-daaaa. Wrist roller.

by **Derian** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 1:17 pm

It's a bit off topic, but if you have access to a barbell and weights, deadlifts with a double overhanded grip will probably build wrist/grip strength (plus a number of other very important muscle groups) faster than a wrist roller. Kettlebell swings, too, but you'd probably have trouble finding them at a globogym type place.

by **The Bruce** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:20 pm

Derian wrote:deadlifts with a double overhanded grip will probably build wrist/grip strength (plus a number of other very important muscle groups) faster than a wrist roller.

No way. As you point out, the deadlift spreads the effort over many muscle groups; the roller just focuses it on your forearms/wrists. Two or three trips up and down and you're burned up! Deadlifts are a great overall conditioning exercise, but he was looking for a specific solution to wrist pain.

by **Derian** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:38 pm

Deadlifts with proper form will definitely do it, plus give lots of other benefits.

Most people who don't have significant experience with deadlifts aren't limited by their larger muscle groups in the legs and back, but specifically by grip strength. If you don't believe me, try deads with straps to take wrist/grip strength out of the equation and see how much it improves your lifts.

by **Arrakis** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 7:48 pm

Describe this technique further, Derian, for those of us who've never actually done any weightlifting.

by **Nibenon** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:00 pm

you take a circular strap and wrap it around you wrist then up under the bar and sinching it back around your wrist

by **Arrakis** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 8:20 pm

Naw, bruh. Like, deadlifts with whatever blah blah modification, etc.

It probably ain't even worth explainin' on the internet. ****', I need more free time to train...

by **Nikola the Bear-hat** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 9:44 pm

Deadlifts are lifting a barbell directly off the floor to a standing position with arms extended the whole time. Pretty simple, but dangerous if done incorrectly. I am in search of a video I once saw that perfectly describes the move. It's one of my personal favorites.

As for deads being a lot about grip, dead on. Straps make a huge difference. And why shouldn't it be as effective as directly training the grip? Just because you're moving the weight with other muscles doesn't mean your hands aren't holding up as much weight.

Overhand grip means your palms face your body, underhanded (not advised) means palms facing away from your body, mixed is...mixed. I'll be back with a more comprehensive examination of the deadlift for you Arrakis. For now I need sleep.

by **Derian** » Tue Oct 13, 2009 11:33 pm

Nikola's got the right idea.

Double overhand is generally the 'default' for new people. Experienced lifters often alternate - one hand underhanded, the other overhanded. This allows you to get a bit more weight than both overhanded.

Straps aren't really that useful if you're training strength. They might be good at the end of a few sets when your grip is shot but your legs have a bit more in them, but I definitely agree with many experienced trainers when they say to use them sparingly.

Check this out: http://www.youtube.com/view_play_list?p ... 2FA5322D68

If anyone knows his **** about coaching strength building lifts, it's Mark Rippetoe.

by **Nikola the Bear-hat** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 1:18 pm

What's up deadlift people? This thread will attempt to cover deadlift basics, common mistakes, and also provide some useful information about other deadlift variations.

Here is the basic overview of the classic barbell deadlift.....

And here is Mark Rippetoe's "Lengthy Analysis of the Deadlift". It is a must read and covers all the fundamentals necessary to truly understand the lift.

http://www.crossfit.com/journal/library/51-2006_AnalysisofDeadlift.pdf

This link is to Bango Skank's Starting Strength Wiki page... it also contains much useful information related to deadlift mechanics and performance as well as great videos for all the other basic lifts.

http://startingstrength.wikia.com/wiki/Video

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Now, onto some deadlift variants....

I'll first touch on Romanian Deadlift and the Stiff-leg Deadlift. There are a lot of posts about the differences between Romanian deadlifts and Stiff leg deadlifts, however many of them contain inconsistent or inaccurate information. These videos and descriptions should help clarify the real differences between the movements.

Both the RDL and SLDL are good assistance exercises to the standard deadlift and good exercises to work the hamstrings, glutes, and lower back.

The Romanian Deadlift...

The Romanian deadlift does a particularly good job of working the hamstrings and glutes while being a bit easier on the lower back than the SLDL. It also provides some good isometric work for the erectors and even the lats (which are worked hard keeping the bar in against the leg) but of course these are not the primary muscles targeted.

Romanian deadlifts begin at the hang. Make sure to keep your weight on your heels, and your back arched. Knees will be slightly flexed throughout the lift, and focus on pushing the hips back, chest up and your back arched. Go down as low as you can while keeping the back in extension. Some find it helpful to think of the hips as a hinge.The bar must remain against the leg for the entire lift.

The RDL purposefully takes advantage of the stretch reflex, so it should be used. Flexibility may limit one's range of motion initially, which is fine. RDL's are a great way of increasing hamstring extensability over time.

Double overhand, hook grip or straps are recommened, as a mixed grip can compromise the ability to keep the bar in against the leg as effectively as possible, as well as subject the shoulders to asymetric stress.

RDLs...

Here is another good instructional on how to perform the RDL...

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The Stiff leg deadlift

The Stiff leg deadlift is another good assistance or hamstring/glute/low back exercise. The SLDL is generally a bit tougher on the lower back due to the mechanics of the lift and the position of the load.

Though similar to the RDL, there are several key differences. First, the SLDL starts from the floor. Because of this, it will generally have a slightly longer RoM than the RDL. The back angle will also be more horizontal than in any other kind of pull and as a result the bar will start slightly away from the shins in order to accomodate the necessary relationship between the scapulae and the bar. As little knee bend as necessary should be used, and by keeping the knees back the weight will maintain its tendency to ride over the mid foot, especially as the bar gets heavier.

In the SLDL, the bar will remain out, away from the shins until the scapulae begin to rotate back behind the bar, around the time that the bar passes above the knees.

To perform the SLDL, assume your regular deadlift stance. Unlock the knees slightly and set them in position, chest up, back arched, take a big breath and perform the rep. Then lower it back to the floor for the next repetition.

Double overhand, hook grip or straps are all desireable for the same reasons that apply to the RDL.

SLDL....

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Two other excellent deadlift variations are the Halting Deadlift and Rack Pull. These are both partial movements that together train the entire deadlift. Intermediate trainees will find these helpful as pulls from the floor ever week can be very taxing. Bodybuilders may also prefer performing rack pulls to the full movement as it allows them to overload the back to a greater extent while eliminating much of the contribution of the legs to the movement.

The Halting Deadlift

We'll start from the bottom with the halting deadlift. Assume a normal deadlift stance and use either a double overhand, hooked, or strapped grip. What was said about mixed grip for RDL's and SLDL's applies to these two partial movements as well.

The halting is otherwise performed exactly the same way as the regular deadlift, only the bar is lifted to a point where it just clears the patellas, before the back angle has really begun to change. It is important to think of pushing the floor with your feet and keeping the bar pulled in against the legs.

Haltings work all the musculature of the deadlift in a way specific to the intial part of the pull, which is knee extension. The glutes, hams, and back are working isometrically here while the knee extensors move the load.

Here is a video which outlines the basic mechanics, however the sweatpants do preclude one from seeing clearly the knee extension component. It must be stressed that it is the quads push off the floor that is the heart of the movement.

The Rack Pull

The other half of this combination is the Rack pull, or partial deadlift. Unlike the Halting however, the rack pull is not perfectly analgous to the top half of the pull. A change in mechanics makes it a more effective exercise for both the hip extensor muscles (if the lift is being used as an assistance lift, as would athletes) AND the back if it is being used by a bodybuilder. The rack pull is more similar to the top of clean at the end of the first pull than a deadlift because of the desired forward shoulder position.

For general training purposes, the rack pull should begin from below the knee. Those who have experience with the lift may find it desireable to start higher, but it is my opinion that that is a decision best left to the trainee with some experience under their belt. 3-4" below the joint line is generally appropriate. If its all the way down to mid shin the point of the exercise is defeated.

Rack pulls are done off pins, typically inside a power rack. Basically opposite the Halting deadlift, the rack pull minimizes quad involvement while greatly loading all the hip extensors, hams, glutes, and back. Those who choose to start from a higher position than outlined here will likely feel it less in the hips and more in the back.

The trainee should assume the same width stance as they would for a regular deadlift but keep their shins closer to the bar than would be in a pull off the floor. The bar must be directly over the middle of the foot. The shin should be close to, but not exactly vertical. The shoulders will be in front of the bar and must remain there until the bar is well up the thigh. The back must be locked in rigid extension, chest up!

From this position the bar is pulled right up the leg, with the shoulders out over the bar, chest up, and knees held back with no forward movement. Once the bar gets to the point where the shoulder blades have rotated behind it the hips must be forcefully extended. The finish position is the same as for the deadlift.

The way the rack pull differs from the actual top of a deadlift off the floor is that the shoulders are out over the bar longer, which means the back is more horizontal. This is the result of the near vertical shin position, this ensures that the quads are eliminated and it is the hip extensors that move the bar. This more horizontal back angle is why the rack pull is such a great movement for the erectors, as well as just the magnitude of the load used.

Things to look out for would be letting the knees come forward as soon as they are passed by the bar, making the back angle morevertical and hitching the bar up the leg. You can do more weight like this because you get the opportunity to rebend the knee and let the quads contribute to the movement, but you do this at expense to nailing the muscles that you are trying to work with this exercise (hip extensors and back).

This is a rack pull described in the above manner, with the exception of a slightly higher than optimal start position. This was an equipment limitation.

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The credit for most all of this information goes to Mark Rippetoe. The above post is basically my interpretation of the material outlined in Starting Strength Volume 2. Those who have found it helpful I'd highly encourage to look into the book.

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http://www.youtube.com/user/Kiknskreem

This is borrowed from the bodybuilding.com forums. I think it's a great medium level analysis of the deadlift and some variants. Mark Rippetoe is awesome, too. Have fun.

/highjack

by **Derian** » Wed Oct 14, 2009 3:02 pm

Nikola the Vengeful wrote:The credit for most all of this information goes to Mark Rippetoe. The above post is basically my interpretation of the material outlined in Starting Strength Volume 2. Those who have found it helpful I'd highly encourage to look into the book.

Truth. If you're interested in strength training (i.e. not bodybuilding, not endurance training, but getting strong as ****), I cannot recommend Starting Strength enough. Here's the link to buy it directly from the publisher: http://www.aasgaardco.com/store/store.p ... how_detail

by **Cade** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 11:30 am

This probably won't help unless you work in a kitchen, and im only posting because its interesting, but the same basic motions you use for wrist rolling just so happen to be the same motion and muscles you use for chopping cilantro. When you have to fine dice eight bags of cilantro in an hour, you build up some insanely strong wrists. Ironically i had always had carpel tunnel from using the computer, and after doing anything like fighting my wrists would start to lock up and ache...after a month or two of dicing cilantro...no more carpel tunnel, and absolutely zero problems with fighting.

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/A5zEsucVz98&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/A5zEsucVz98&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]

if you will forgive the chef snob in me, this guy is fairly slow, and his chop is rough, but you can see the basic motion he goes through. I guess if you work in a kitchen, you could volunteer for prep and build your wrists that way.

by **Arrakis** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 1:00 pm

So, what you're saying is: Go join the Cooking forum if you want to be a good fighter?

Also: EWWWW Cilantro! :unsure:

by **The Bruce** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 5:26 pm

Sort of gives you an idea of our collective fitness level when cooking becomes conditioning for symbolic combat! :pig:

by **Nikola the Bear-hat** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 7:44 pm

The Bruce wrote:Sort of gives you an idea of our collective fitness level when cooking becomes conditioning for symbolic combat!

*ahem* Prospective Division 1 football player.

by **No'Vak** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:00 pm

Nikola the Vengeful wrote:
The Bruce wrote:Sort of gives you an idea of our collective fitness level when cooking becomes conditioning for symbolic combat!

*ahem* Prospective Division 1 football player.

Maybe but I'll dominate you in Madden.

by **Cade** » Mon Oct 19, 2009 8:27 pm

The Bruce wrote:Sort of gives you an idea of our collective fitness level when cooking becomes conditioning for symbolic combat!

Its a two birds one stone sort of thing lol.

by **Slagar** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 10:30 am

Hey hey. I played for a division 1 rugby team. Not all of us are reduced to exercising in the kitchen. :-p

Seriously, though, knitting, chopping ****, whatever works. Forearms are targeted by the weirdest things. If it works for you, go with it.

by **Nikola the Bear-hat** » Tue Oct 20, 2009 6:37 pm

Noik wrote:Maybe but I'll dominate you in Madden.

I'm sure you would.

I'm not sure how applicable it is, but I also enjoy using grippers to train grip. It's more of a crush than a hold, so it may not be the best, but the Captains of Crush grips are awesome. If anyone's super serious about training grip, visit the gripboard.com boards. It's all about grip and various feats of grip strength.

by **Loptr** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:28 am

Nikola the Vengeful wrote:I'm not sure how applicable it is, but I also enjoy using grippers to train grip. It's more of a crush than a hold, so it may not be the best, but the Captains of Crush grips are awesome. If anyone's super serious about training grip, visit the gripboard.com boards. It's all about grip and various feats of grip strength.

Are we talking about self satisfaction here? :devil:

Just sayin....

L

by **Soo Ma Tai** » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:49 am

If you want a powerful grip, try learning to play guitar or any other stringed instrument with a neck. :angel:

I use a grip master deal for guitar players. I like them because they have individual places for each finger. When I first started using it, I could barely squeeze the ring and pinky finger places. You'd be amazed at how weak those two fingers are, even in someone with a very strong grip. I used the gripper in both hands, and when I went to the chiropractor for a neck injury, they measured my grip in both hands. To the womans amazement (she had me do it three times because she thought her machine was messed up) I had a 95 lb. grip in either hand.

Keep in mind I did not use the gripper that often and it was not part of any training regimine, only something I did every once in a while to help my guitar playing.

by **Nikola the Bear-hat** » Thu Oct 22, 2009 3:08 pm

Loptr wrote:Are we talking about self satisfaction here? Just sayin....

L

Could play a part. I can close a 250 in my right but only a 200 in the left...

by **Sir_Mel** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 3:07 am

Bam! http://www.dynaflexpro.com/store.php?cr ... how_detail

Kick your weak wrist and hands' *.

Warlord certified.

by **Slagar** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 11:38 am

I ordered one of those because of your post, Mel. If it doesn't rock, I'm returning it to you at the next event, at very high velocity. :-p

I'll post a review once I've gotten to play around with it.

by **Dane** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:22 pm

If you wanted to play with balls, Slagar, all you had to do was ask.

by **No'Vak** » Fri Oct 23, 2009 7:29 pm

Link doesn't work for me.

by **Slagar** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 12:17 am

Now Dane, don't be like that. You knew what this was.

Noik: if you google Dynaflex gyro, you'll get it. It's an interesting concept, hence ordering one.

by **Dane** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 10:02 am

It's the fate of every man's genitals to be replaced by a vibrating toy. I just never thought it would happen to me...
:cry:

by **bo1** » Sat Oct 24, 2009 1:46 pm

dane that is realy funny. and sadly true. those **** bastteries last for days, i am only good for hours.

by **Slagar** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:40 pm

So, I ordered one, got it, and have spent the last week or so goofing around with it. This thing is pretty fraggin' sweet. No impact, and tears your arms up as well as anything else I've ever found. Honestly, in terms of effectiveness and efficiency, I'd say this is about on par with wrist rollers and well above farmer carries.

The big upside to this thing is that it's very portable and kinda addicting to play with. So, while wrist rollers will work just as well, I guarantee that you'll use one of these more often, just because it's convenient and much more fun. So I'd probably recommend this over wrist rollers.

The one big downside here is that these things can be a pain in the * to figure out how to use properly. I got it in less than an hour, but my roommate (an aerospace engineer, so it's not like he's too dumb to get it) still can't figure it out, and it's subtle enough that you can't really teach it to someone else. So, if you order one and can't get it to work, odds are you may just throw it in the drawer and forget it. Best I can suggest is do what I did, and look up a few youtube videos to help. They work way better than the included CD (throw that POS out).

Overall -9/10, with the point off being for a restrictively steep learning curve. Take the time to learn it, and it's pretty awesome, though.

by **Slagar** » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:41 pm

I just noticed that I preface every third sentence with "So,". I should work on that. :unsure:

by **Sir_Mel** » Fri Nov 13, 2009 6:19 pm

Told you I'm smart.

by **Physic** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 2:42 pm

The ball is more focused on stabilization development and the wrist roller is more for strength development. I would recommend using them both.

by **Slagar** » Sun Nov 15, 2009 5:22 pm

How so, Physic? Depending on which technique you use with the gyro, you work all of the muscle groups that the wrist roller hits, that I know for sure. What's the difference? I'm genuinely curious, here.

by **Sir_Mel** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:38 am

Dynaflex works all the fine motor muscles that help everything work together. it'll help build your coordination. The wrist roller is more of a "weight lifting" exercise that will build the larger muscles in your forearms where the "big strength" is.

by **Physic** » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:41 pm

by **larosenoire** » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:55 am

Teh Mel wrote:Bam! http://www.dynaflexpro.com/store.php?cr ... how_detail

Kick your weak wrist and hands' *.

Warlord certified.

I was looking for those actually.. Thanks. And those work wonders in help strengthening.

by **Sir_Mel** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:41 pm

Nikola the Vengeful wrote:
The Bruce wrote:Sort of gives you an idea of our collective fitness level when cooking becomes conditioning for symbolic combat!

*ahem* Prospective Division 1 football player.

I realize you're a high school badass and all, but seriously, nobody here really cares.

by **No'Vak** » Sun Nov 22, 2009 11:44 pm

I don't even know what division one fooseball is.

That is what he plays right.

Belegarth

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