Critique of Canadian Fighting wanted.

[Cib]

One of our big fears (being so isolated and have zero real live contact with the rest of the foam fighting world) is that when we hit up a event and finally get connected to the rest of the belegarth world we will not only have misinterpret some important rule or something but that our skills will be terrible week. So, of the cough, I filmed some dueling after last fridays practice, we are going to grit our teeth and ask for a review and helpful feed back on how we are doing.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQHRkO8fC6I


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cf8kK8FpWp8

[Arrakis]

First: "off the cuff" not "of the cough." Easy mistake to make.

In the "Post Practice Dueling" video, the first thing I noticed was that Mog keeps his guard waaay too wide. Anyone with a red weapon should be double greening him right in the chest. Guy with the short sword and the small shield that fights him first, good on you for having a weaponside block; now, when you block that onside shot with your sword, immediately riposte by striking him on his sword arm (the one you just blocked.)


More later.

[The Bruce]

The axe-wielder should quit focusing on breaking the shield so much and take out a leg first. Use that reach advantage to get the lead leg, back out, then smash the legged opponent at leisure.

[Slagar]

For the most part, you guys seem to be coming along fine. Were you to show up at a national field as you are, you wouldn't stand out as noticeably worse than any other group of relatively new fighters. So no worries there.

Since you took the time to post video, here are some critiques.

You guys seem to use really unorthodox gear. The weapons combos I saw were florentine with two really long swords, s&b with really tiny sword and shield, and some giant hammer-type thing. This gear is not typical of most Bel realms. While you guys are free to use whatever you like, and some people might even suggest that the smaller shields are a useful learning tool, it is worth noting that when you hit a national field, you'll probably be the only ones using them. If you want to improve your first showing at a national field, get some practice both with and against a 32" blue/green, and a 28" strap round. Also, hand someone in your realm a flail. I hate 'em, but they're part of our game, and the first time you see one is always rough, so start practicing now. Get some practice against the more mainstream Belegarth gear, it'll help.

Some specific advice for individual fighters:

Red hammer guy: You really need to be more agressive in target selection, and you need to control range better. You seem to always throw some shots at the shield, then get rushed and chopped down. You need to swat at legs, change your grip up, and control the pace of the fight. If you're going to use this weapon, you need to take advantage of its strengths, since you're sure as hell paying for its weaknesses.

Florentine guy: if you're going to use two really long swords (which I would advise against), make use of your range, and keep your sword tips up. Keeping your swords vertical gives you better planes of defense. It also lets you use the weight of those giant swords to move them faster. As it is you seem to want to point them at your opponents, which may help keep them from rushing, but it slows you way the hell down in terms of offense and defense. Tips up, and swat at legs and hips for range. Counter swing arms, too, with your left. Whatever you can do to move faster, and stay at range better. Or just switch to mid-length swords. That'd be better in the long run, but I don't know what you guys have in the way of resources for weapons.


Hope this helps, guys.

[Big King Jimmy]

Don't worry Cib, we're working on the "fly Cib to Octfest" fund.

[Kage]

Red and black: Take your shots and learn to breathe.
.
Mog: Tighten up your guard use your range to your advantage.

Green: Work some more on a pell. Saw a few flats in there.

[kree]

dont worry about armor that early in the game


skbc videos

[Cib]

Thank you for the replies guy, I appreciate it.

*: Shields are expensive to build, foam is not cheep around here, so we have gone small on them for the most part. The reason for our unorthodox gear... I am not sure.


We have got some comments saying that we are still hitting to light. Thoughts? Are we tap-y?

[Arrakis]

Re: Shields.

Let me help you out. It'll take saving some money and scraping for a while on the front end, but this'll get you shields cheapest in the long run.

PLAN: Buy a 4'x8' sheet of 3/8" plywood, cut into EIGHT 24" round shield blanks (foamed up, these will be ~27.5" in diameter). You'll need something like 2 (bluefoam sheet-sized) sheets of foam per shield (you'll have some leftovers from each roll, of course). A gallon of DAP, 4 yards of 60" wide bargain poly-cotton fabric and that's it, if you don't mind folding up 6-8 layer-thick cloth shield straps instead of using leather or seatbelt straps.

That should give you the cheapest solution to your shield problems, if you need 8 shields. If you only need 4, try getting a half-sheet (4'x4') which should be cheaper overall (but not as cheap per shield).


As far as lightness of hits goes, you should always be hitting at least a weapon's checking Medium. What's a weapon's checking Medium? Tap them with a little oomph: That's WC Light. Hit them as hard as you can one-handed with your hips in it: That's WC Hard. Hit 'em somewhere about halfway in between, perhaps as hard as you can throw a shot without your hips without winding up like you're playing baseball: That's about WC Medium. Maybe take video of one of you doing the weapons checking swings on one of your guys' backs and we can see if they're about right?

[Cade]

I didn't watch all of it, but i would suggest working on not telegraphing your shots. Florentine guy was kinda predictable in his strikes, and as cool as it does look, you really need a lot of practice to be good at it. I still have trouble splitting my attention, so i end up striking with both swords at the same spot most of the time, which defeats the purpose of Florentine.

I'm trying to avoid saying what other people already pointed out so other than that you guys look ok to me. Oktoberfest sounds tough for someone who has never been there, and believe me i had visions of legions of crazy good players roaming around trashing people, but in reality, there are only a small amount of those, and a lot of very average people. You guys should fit in just fine.

[MeleeMoses]

TAKE LIGHT HIT HARD

thats all you guys need

[Moginheden]

Thanks for the feedback. I normally use the 2 black swords from the ax-hammer video, not the white and black combo in the other video. Although lately I have been using reds one handed more often, the range is killer in this group as most of our fighters aren't as good as the ones you saw here and don't rush much.

My normal 2 swords are long blues, I've been wondering about using a shorter off-hand for when I get rushed by Darr, (red and black tabard) but I like the range of the longer swords. Does having different length swords work better or worse? I'm mostly ambidextrous so I made matching swords, but I'm wondering if having a shorter sword will help when someone gets in too close.

Should I be using 2 shorter swords instead? I try to use my reach to kill people before they get in range to attack back, but once they are in it's harder to maneuver with the longer swords...

[Moginheden]

My arms felt like they were about to fall off when we started filming this as I had been dual wielding reds for 2 hours before this video was shot so I'm not sure how much of the telegraphing my shots was due to that and how much was lack of skill... probably mostly a skill issue as I've never seen someone who I'd like to emulate. I'd love to see a video of someone doing Florentine properly to learn from. I'm never sure if I should be attacking both at once, one right after the other, or attack with one, hold back to defend with the other and switch the attacking blade randomly.

I tend to keep my weapons apart so they don't get in each other's way and I can move one down to block without entangling the other leaving it free to attack, is this just a dexterity/skill thing, or am I missing something? Shorter weapons might fix this... (I'm also fighting 3-4 lesser-skilled people at once 80% of the time at practices and they surround me... guess I have to change my stance to duel effectively, makes sense.)

[Kage]

Length of your swords will depend all on your own tastes, Mog. My personal taste is to have my swords equal length which when hung at my sides are nearly touching the ground.

[Moginheden]

As for our gear we do have and use 2 flails so I don't think that is an issue. Most of our swords are about the length of Darr's (red and black tabard) Is this too short? We have I think 5 shields: 2 the size of the tiny punch Cib was using, Darr's one from the video, and 2 about double that size. For sizing is that about right? How many shields should there be on the field?

At an average practice I'd guess we have 3 of our members using shield and a short sword/flail, 2 using a red, 1 using a spear, 3-4 florentine, (mostly with very short blues, I'm the exception) and about 6 using a single short blue. We used to have 1 or 2 using javelins but the foam died in those and we haven't re-built them yet.

The reason for the 6 people single blue is they don't want to use both arms as they are new and don't know how to use it effectively.

The one thing I'm worried about at an event is archers, we haven't had ANY effective bows and I hear that changes the game a lot.

[Moginheden]

Length of your swords will depend all on your own tastes, Mog. My personal taste is to have my swords equal length which when hung at my sides are nearly touching the ground.

Good to know, that's what I'm using most of the time, (the black ones in the video.) Do you have problems with your swords entangling each other when you are trying to block with one and attack with the other?

I'm not sure how tall you are but do you have problems once someone gets past your range?

[Arrakis]

Don't worry about archers. If you've got a shield, you're probably gonna be halfway okay. If you don't, well, just pay some attention and you'll be alright.

A typical Bel practice in most places, near as I know, is 60%+ blue'n'board (possibly with javelin), 20% red, 20% anything else (spear, flor, single blue, archery). I do recommend letting your newbs single blue for as long as they'd like, but getting a shield in their off hand is going to improve their survivability a LOT and you may want to encourage single blue sparring as a training exercise and more shield work on the field as they improve.

More to come on your other questions...

[Arrakis]

Conventional wisdom is that swords whose lengths differ by more than a couple of inches will cause you to fight almost like a sword'n'board fighter and that's not wise/optimal for a florentiner.

I like 33-36" swords when I flo. I'm 6'1". If you turn your body correctly, you'll have range on a lot of fighters, including any sword and board fighter who fights shield leg forward. Plus, they're short enough that you can wrap shot with them quickly and (more importantly) wind 'em around for hook, j-, and pocket stabs with ease.

This may come in handy for you:
.

Still looking for more good Flo vids for you.

Oh, PS: Don't duel wield reds unless your name is Sir Zavulf. It's just not a good policy.

[Moginheden]

I'm 6'5" and the swords I use are 33" blade, 40" total.

[Kage]

Good to know, that's what I'm using most of the time, (the black ones in the video.) Do you have problems with your swords entangling each other when you are trying to block with one and attack with the other?

I'm not sure how tall you are but do you have problems once someone gets past your range?

I'm only around 5'9" so I don't consider myself that tall. Like Arrakis I fight with roughly the same size swords (32"-34" over all slightly shorter). I don't have a problem getting tangled up at all, but I can say (and I don't mean this as derogatory) I feel safe saying I have had more practice than you have. If you have a pell use the crap out of it. If you are having or afraid of having your sword bind up on you just concentrate on making sure you don't cross them very much. Shoot same side and block same side, occasionally if ok even I will see a prime opportunity for a high cross and take it. Get used to fighting in any range, it will make you a better fighter in my opinion especially up close because short guys like me will rush you to take that range advantage way as soon as possible. Also are your swords balanced at all? It could help to balance them more if they aren't already.

[Moginheden]

I'm only around 5'9" so I don't consider myself that tall. Like Arrakis I fight with roughly the same size swords (32"-34" over all slightly shorter). I don't have a problem getting tangled up at all, but I can say (and I don't mean this as derogatory) I feel safe saying I have had more practice than you have. If you have a pell use the crap out of it. If you are having or afraid of having your sword bind up on you just concentrate on making sure you don't cross them very much. Shoot same side and block same side, occasionally if ok even I will see a prime opportunity for a high cross and take it. Get used to fighting in any range, it will make you a better fighter in my opinion especially up close because short guys like me will rush you to take that range advantage way as soon as possible. Also are your swords balanced at all? It could help to balance them more if they aren't already.

You almost guaranteed have more practice than me. I've been trying to do this for ages but I can only make it to one practice every 2 weeks due to scheduling conflicts with the Airdrie group and lack of attendance in the Calgary group.

One of my swords is counterbalanced 6" above the handle, the other 12" above the handle. I was going to make them both 6" but I notice the difference in weights and find the lighter sword helps enough that I didn't counterweight the second one.

[Cib]

Most of our swords are about the length of Darr's (red and black tabard) Is this too short?

This is because I got Darr hooked on short sword, and I favor them. Combine that with many of the loaners being mine (and being loaners, the short ones last longer) and you have the reason we have so many short swords. I believe the sword I was using in the video is the national average (though lacking a staby).


Is length measured by the blade, or the overall?

[Kage]

I normally look at length as being overall.

I would counter balance the other one to match but like I said it will all be up to personal preference in the end.

[Dawnbringer]

What is the natural average for sword length anyway? Because I fight sword and board with 26" round shield and a 40" long sword. I'm thinking of making a 32" sword. I'm 5' 8"

[Arrakis]

When people talk about length of a sword in Belegarth, they mean overall length.

I'd say the nationally understood "mid-length" "average" sword is 32-36".

Mog: My 34s are balanced around 4" above the tops of the handles and the handles aren't particularly long. You'll need to fight a very hands-close-to-the body hip-heavy style to get good shot speed with swords that long with their points of balance up that high.

[Soo Ma Tai]

A slightly heavier, yet counter balanced sword will swing better than a lighter, unbalanced sword. I tend to fight with Round shield and med. sized sword. I have two edhellen ultralight mediums, one is counter balanced (and meets the weight req.) the other is not (and is under weight) Both feel about the same when I swing them, but i get a lot better action out of the counterbalanced one.

Mog: When I started fighting Flo, I started with two weapons just a bit shoter than Mog's, I am only 5' 10". As I progressed and got a bit better, I dropped my weapon length significantly, down to about the size of that shorty. You have a good lefty shot, but almost nothing with the right that I saw. Learn to block and strike at the same time (not on a 1, 2 count, just a single count.) Every time you block with one sword you should be striking with the other.

Sorry for the lack of other advice, I am at work and could only watch about half the first vid. More to come later, but y'all look like you are ready to hit up any event. I would say you are pretty much average fighters from what I have seen. Lots of minor mistakes but nothing truly glaring so far.

[Arrakis]

Now that I'm finally getting to watch the vids with sound...

Moginhedin: If that is, in fact, you talking during the Post Practice Dueling video at around 1:45, you aren't allowed to call shield-breaking shots on your opponents; if they feel like it was good enough, they'll acknowledge it. You can certainly call "RED!" or "TWO!" during the shot to inform them that you think it's good enough, but it's ultimately on them.

Too, you're using your armor as a crutch. Don't count your armor during sparring. You would have lost a lot of those encounters if you hadn't been or your opponents had been wearing armor and that's a result of sloppy fighting.

Everyone else, esp. Cib: Quit letting him eat you up with that left hand redsword! Tuck your leg when he shoots for it, then stutter step in, quick, before he recovers and chew up his left arm. You don't have to hit him anywhere else. He has no shield and no defense on that side when his sword is down. Just chop chop chop = dead Mog.

At 3:20 ish, Cib, you're flatting the **** outta whoever that is that you're fighting. It's good that he didn't take any of them, since they were illegitimate, but, were you calling them off as flat, was a herald telling him they were flat, or was he just not taking them for some reason?

Also, at the risk of repeating what others have said: Cib, if your opponent's shield leaves anything open, ignore it when using a weapon with reach. You kept throwing big, obvious shots into that guy's small shield while ignoring the pump-fake-to-leg-shot. Abuse that shot 'til they start blocking it, then fake it and chop their weapon arm or shoulder.

[Cib]

At 3:20 ish, Cib, you're flatting the **** outta whoever that is that you're fighting. It's good that he didn't take any of them, since they were illegitimate, but, were you calling them off as flat, was a herald telling him they were flat, or was he just not taking them for some reason?

That sword is my first ever made and VERY soft now. I was not calling them, but it is posable he didn't feel much. I have to consciously give more umph to a shot to land a good strike. (edit: oh, and he also has cain on under the sr. coat)
That sure is a lot of flatting though isn't it.... Is there an exercise someone could recommend to help reduce flatting shots?

Also, at the risk of repeating what others have said: Cib, if your opponent's shield leaves anything open, ignore it when using a weapon with reach. You kept throwing big, obvious shots into that guy's small shield while ignoring the pump-fake-to-leg-shot. Abuse that shot 'til they start blocking it, then fake it and chop their weapon arm or shoulder.

I agree, watching the videos it is like I have no idea what a leg is.... I am seeing a tun of opportunities where I could have taken out legs both with sword and hammer.

[Moginheden]

Now that I'm finally getting to watch the vids with sound...

Moginhedin: If that is, in fact, you talking during the Post Practice Dueling video at around 1:45, you aren't allowed to call shield-breaking shots on your opponents; if they feel like it was good enough, they'll acknowledge it. You can certainly call "RED!" or "TWO!" during the shot to inform them that you think it's good enough, but it's ultimately on them.

Too, you're using your armor as a crutch. Don't count your armor during sparring. You would have lost a lot of those encounters if you hadn't been or your opponents had been wearing armor and that's a result of sloppy fighting.

I'm calling Cib's shots on my arm there, not my shots on his shield. When I swung at his shield he hit my arm armour the first time and my hand the second, I was informing him of that fact.

All 3 of us are wearing armour in those videos, mine is the most obvious though. Darr is wearing a chainmail shirt that covers almost the exact same area as his black and red vest. Cib is wearing chainmail covering the top half of his chest under his green tabard, (but above the rest of his garb.) The chainmail is hard to notice when it's covered like that but it's easily passing when it's the outside layer. Does the rule on armour being recognizable care if you have a tabard over it?

I verbally mention my armour more than Cib or Darr, but Darr uses it from a counting the shot perspective just as much as I do, (Cib's is smaller and we normally just go under it.)

[Arrakis]

Everybody needs to be verbally acknowledging hits to armor.

[gosta]

I've never seen someone who I'd like to emulate. I'd love to see a video of someone doing Florentine properly to learn from.

Pay attention to the Tall guy(Bhakdar) in the brown pants in these series. He's about your height and is one of the best. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-G7rwlz7pbc

Then watch the guy in the black (Sir Peter the Quick) for another greate flo vid. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHyIJQr6ZLk&feature=channel

About 2min into this video Sir Kenneth fight flo with some long blues. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qVyXvIXsTSU&feature=fvsr

[p_quick]

Cib, and Darr?


you are both pretty fresh in what you do. but you both really either wait until you are engaged or you just move forward and engage. there is no consideration in how you engage. there needs to be some consideration in how you approach your opponent. as far as i can tell there are no feints no body fakes, no studders. just direct attacks.

now don't get me wrong. you guys are looking pretty good for new fighters. you both have decent weaponside blocks. but you both have so much more to work for.

Mog, you've taken alot of abuse this thread so i'm not gunna really speak on "what you are doing wrong" as everyone else seems to be doing. and some of them have some good things to say but for the most part you need to forget alot of it and go back to the basics.

Soo Ma is correct in saying you don't have two hands, you only the one and its a sad one hand.

But i suggest attempting to learn with each hand. i would single sword alot. just one hand. when fighting a shield man one hand is all you really need to win. fight them hand for hand. once you can do that with both hands you are ready to fight two sword.

And use whatever kind of weapon you decide best fits you, but for your information, all the best of the best use 32-36 inch swords (total length) and usually use two swords of the same length. and if you prefer different lengths you should put the longer sword in your left hand (if the fighter you are fighting is right handed) and vice-a-versa if they are left handed.

that is my advice for you guys for the time being.

keep up the good work. put a video up here and asking for advice is a big leap.

oh yea and mog, don't look at kenny's flo, he's aweful, and don't look at mine either. look up spyn's flo fighting.

[Cib]

Before for this thread dies, I would like to thank everyone for taking the time to give us your thoughts. It has been very beneficial.

That said, don't hesitate to keep posting! I would love to hear more.

[Sir_Mel]

Should I be using 2 shorter swords instead?

Yes. You got long * arms, you don't need long * swords too.