From Bel to the SCA

[Kyrian]

Fork, get one of 'em to loan you a glaive. Mua ha ha ha ha...

Better make sure the waaambulance is on speed dial too...

[tvetree]

I also got told I don't hit hard enough. Weird. I already feel guilty about hitting these guys too hard. Apearently, I pull my sword back at the last second when hitting. I think it's left over from trying to be extra fast with a foam sword. Riding the bouce off my opponents equipment to block and strike again.
Got to follow through.
I haven't been told I don't hit hard enough in a long, long time.
FB

I'd say you already know what to do here.But for others following this thread I'll add a bit.

Easiest way to adjust your follow thru is in where you aim,no real need to mess with the motions of the shot.Simply pick a target on the other side of what you already throw at.
Example....If you are throwing a flat snap to the right side of the head,try to hit them in the left ear,or picture your sword becoming lodged somewhere between the eyes,but with the same shot angle.

Another commen power robber from fast swords is not closing your fist right before the rattan hits the target.

[Wisp]

I'd like to see your plastic design FB. Post a link when ya can!

Will

[Forkbeard]

I've been leaving the great weapons alone until I get a better feel for these guys. They seem real tough and told me I need to follow through with me s&b shots, but they haven't seen me with a long weapon. I kind of scared they'll hand me one, I'll kidney shot someone and they all be * at me. There is some talk of only being alowed to swing 90dgrees. I don't know that I can limit myself like that, yet.
I fought my buddies girlfreaind this week. She really wanted to becuase I talk **** on madu's all the time and she loves hers. She's been doing this a while and one of my tourney problems at Bel is taking it easy on chicks. Some of you may have seen me kill 3 EBF guys in a row only to loose the tourney to that hot girl from Iowa. Anyway, not this time. I kicked her madu weilding * until she got tired. Madu is a stupid weapon.
Then I fought a fat old guy who beat my **** brains in. Don't get me wrong, I gave as good as I got, but this guy was defiently following through with his swings. I would have beat him more of the time, but he was the one who explained that I pull my shots. He also told me I take too light of shots.
Wisp, I'm tring to get pics of all my **** to put up here. Hopefully this weekend.
FB

[Arrakis]

He also told me I take too light of shots.

I've been told that, too.

[Wisp]

I have trouble with headshots. If I hear it, I take it and that will lose a lot of fights you shouldn't lose in the SCA. On the other hand, I have a real hard time not pulling my stabs to the face.

Will

[Arrakis]

The new SCA torso armor and gorget. That's oven-hardened leather on the gorg and heavy barrel plastic on the Coat of Plates. I've got heavy hardened leather greaves done, too. I need to make full arms (I've ordered 3-lame spaulders and simple elbow cops, but God knows when they'll get here...), gauntlets, cuisses (I'm buying knees), and I'm gonna sew a better gambeson with attached sleeves. I need to buy a helm, too...

[Judas]

What pattern did you use for that C.O.P.?

[Arrakis]

Essentially this: http://www.hoashantverk.se/hantverk/hoa ... insid.html

[Forkbeard]

I'm trying to find a pattern for a cloth bodied, splinted forearm. I want to have 2 layers of cloth with the splints(plastic )inside. I'd like to do long pockets, so I can take the splints out and wash the nasty things.
I'm going to make some plastic elbow cops and sew them ti elbow pads. I'm trying to get my arm harness as light as possible while maintaining safety.
I think I'm going to use 1/8" plastic for all the splints except the middle 2 on the outside. The ones that get hit the hardest. Those 2 will be 1/4". The cops will be 1/4" also.
All this is going under my shirtsleeves, of course.
I already switched out my steel knees, cuisses and demi greeves for 1/4" plastic shovel greaves. I'm working on rehanging my cuisses and adding more leather to my hip-skirt thing.
I recently checked the numbers.
1/4" abs plastic weighs about 60% of 16ga steel. 46.8 lbs *'x8' sheet for plastic. 78.6 for 16ga steel. 1/8" plastic is sicker still, but flexes enough that you don't want it in hit impact areas in a single layer.
Nice work arrakis. That **** looks awesome.
I wish I could get someone to make me a gambeson.
FB

[Forkbeard]

Last night I fought a few more very good fighters.
I need to get used to all this extra weight on my arms. The weapons, armor and **** basket hilt are cramping my style. I admit I am a more energetic, smashy type fighter, rather thatn a purely technique guy. I like to smash open your guard and then hit you where I want. That **** is WAYY more work in the SCA. I've also been sticking to S&B, whitch I still suck at, but I'm getting better.
I got my biggest welty/bruise yet. On my right leg above the knee. Not as bad as I thought it would be, though.
I think I'm claustrophbic. My Helmet is killing me.
FB

[Arrakis]

http://www.whitemountainarmoury.com/standard.php

The thing on the top of the page.

Lots of people make 'em and they look just about the least claustrophobia-inducing of SCA helms. I'm gonna be getting one myself, probably from Hjalmr on the AA.

[Wisp]

I am finding it funny that folks who insist on a minimum weight requirement in boffer fighting are advocating weight advantages via plastic in the SCA. Awesome.

Will

[Isk]

Wisp, personally, I really like where they are going with this. One thing that has always bothered me about the SCA is how their combat sport simulates unarmored fighting techniques while requiring fairly heavy armor. This invisible armor approach makes the idea of SCA fighting much more appealing to me from an 'attempt to realistically recreate combat' perspective.

[Judas]

Actually that’s not all together true. A much more solid shot is required to be considered “good”. Thrusts to the head must be in the face or they don’t count and blows that glance off helmets or other pieces of armour are ignored.

[Arrakis]

Yeah, but the assumed armor is way lighter/less restrictive than what most people actually wear.

[Isk]

Even with their expectations of being struck more solidly, what I meant is that from a technique standpoint, the SCA, like Bel, Dag and Amt, pretends that a good hard shot to an armored limb disables the limb or a hard shot to an armored head or torso results in death. Occasionally armor could be compromised in this way, but the heavy armors typically assumed on an SCA field would rarely be breached in this manner. Studying any of the historical fencing manuals, fighting in armor is a different form of combat and uses techniques that are very difficult to implement safely in a combat sport.

This is at least part of the reason I prefer Bel to the SCA since the techniques used in both systems are mostly a sport approximation of unarmored combat and bel is mostly unarmored. The thing I like about the SCA is that you hit even harder and the weapons can be more realistic. It just really bothers me to fight in heavy armor, hit people in the armor and pretend I'm doing 'armored combat'.

From my perspective, what Fork is doing here is continuing to more realistically approximate unarmored combat with a minimally-encumbering protective suit on, instead of padding the weapons. That makes SCA sport combat more appealing to me.

[Ryker]

you have to remember about SCA combat, is that no matter what you ARE wearing...you are considered to be wearing a chain mail hauberk and a helmet with a nase.

Wisp, personally, I really like where they are going with this. One thing that has always bothered me about the SCA is how their combat sport simulates unarmored fighting techniques while requiring fairly heavy armor. This invisible armor approach makes the idea of SCA fighting much more appealing to me from an 'attempt to realistically recreate combat' perspective.

[Isk]

you have to remember about SCA combat, is that no matter what you ARE wearing...you are considered to be wearing a chain mail hauberk and a helmet with a nase.

That's a good point, Ryker. And if people really wore chain it would make the fighting style more valid since in the age of chain they seem to have hit each other on the chain in much the same way they would have without the chain on. The historical accounts do record some people dying from the bruises, usually hours to days after the fighting. IIRC, a great many of the gory battle wounds in mass graves from the time are associated with the lower legs, though...

At the end of the day, the SCA has come up with a very workable combat game that many people are very happy with and enjoy playing. As a sport it is every bit as valid as what we do in Belegarth or Olympic Fencing or Tae Kwon Do. I just think that I would personally find a variation of the SCA where the armor is more like safety gear to allow sparring with more accurate weapons to be more realistic and enjoyable. This is what I like about Forkbeard's minimalist, invisible armor approach.

[Forkbeard]

Isk, you hit it straight on, man.
Wisp,
I can't afford the steel armor I want. Not at the quality that I need. If I could it would be spring steel and period and light as hell. But that is beyond me.
Since the SCA is assuming we are all in a padded jack, chain shirt and open helm, I'm making my kit to act like that, but with palte bits all over instaed of chain and quilting.
I HAVE a truckload of 1/4" plastic in my garage and I'm always selling **** to LARPer, so I know how to work it.
This leads me to make more armor parts and do way more experimental **** than most people do when making a normal kit. I seem like I am furiously working on a way to make a super armor, but really I'm just bored off my * and have enough materials to keep **** around unitl I get it how I like it.
What's wrong with me wanting to have nice ****? And how does it affect the way I feel about how heavy foam weapons should be?
Right now I'm making hybrid, plastic steel gauntlets. I'm hoping they will wiegh less than 10 oz.
FB

[Arrakis]

Forkbeard: You da man.

[Freyson]

We had a bunch of crossover from the local SCA group for years and it was great to learn from each other. We would go over and use loaner gear then they would do the same. From them we learned a hard hitting technique, what you are calling 'follow through', from us they learned speed. A few of us still go back and forth every few months. Several of the knights and squires come down every 3 months or so just to have fun but they always * (in fun) about being bruised and winded. Belegarth is MUCH more aerobic. We pretty much got rid of the elite crap from them after the first shield bash and grapple. Now they are really supportive and we both try to send people to each other. Some of this may be due to (as GVK said) that several have either done or had close friends do hard foam fighting in the past.

An interesting thing several of them do with armor is not just the plastic with holes drilled in under period materials, but using gel pack for padding. Most of the armor these guys use is legal grade for Belegarth but backed by plastic. They only have to drop a few bits for fighting with us. But they add gel packs in some areas. They put a pouch inside the gambeson under the armpit and slide in the gel pack from the cooler, or netting in the helmet to hold one, stuff like that. One guy even had those mini motorcycle helmet fans in his helmet blowing over the gel pack. Sounds pretty stupid until you realize it hits 115 heat index here for 3 months plus a year. I personally liked the guy who stored his armor in a freezer in the garage and put it in a cooler to take to battle. It reminded me of the guys in Ohio who would throw their chain on the engine block in winter.

[Cedric]

fork call me next time you go, i will come to your practice. i haven't fought sca since I moved due to work, but need to get back into it!

[Forkbeard]

Freyson, that sound like science to me! Now my gears are really turnin. Gel packs! Who'da thunk that ****? And fans? I'm sadly behind in this little arms race
Cedric, I'll definetly call you, boss.
FB

[Forkbeard]

Missed practice this week. I cut the front of my helmet open and replaced it with bars. It took 2 hours too long, so I missed practice. I really like it now. I believe it was not only too closed, it was just too small.
Next week I'll be back.
FB

[Forkbeard]

Made a new gorget today. Plastic brig type. It got plastic peices between two laters of leather. Pretty light and covers well. I bent the plates to fit my neck/shoulders so it lays flat under my shirt.
I'm also going to be able to wear paldrons on top of it.
Cool.
FB

[Arrakis]

You need to get to posting pictures, Forky. I can't sit here and drool at words on a screen; that just looks wierd.

[Forkbeard]

Pictures, finally.
My helm looked like this

Now to looks like this


My torso was this


Now it's like this

Shovel greaves

Bazubands


New Gorget


I been havin tons of fun.
FB

[Spyn]

Looking good Fork. Should post a pic in your gear. I like the BP the most. I have some super light Kydex Demi's and going for the leather and kydex splint approach for most of the gear. Your helm was WAY to small btw.


Spyn

[MeleeMoses]

Fork ur a **** killer

lookin ill son....real ill

[Forkbeard]

It was WAY too small. Looking at the difference in the pics, I cant **** beleive those guys kept telling me to get used to it. Maybe they don't understand my ability to tear **** apart and rebuild it. They have as many wanna be fighters hanging around practice as they do real fighters. The wanna bes could all fight, but they all claim equipment problems. Maybe theres some business there. They all seem broke as a joke, though.
The helm fits now, though. I think this is really going to help.
I'm making leather demi's so that they will soften up over time. I've been using some that are really baggy. They were hardend once, but you can't really tell now. They move really good for it, though. I like that.
I love the plastic, man. You really can make about anything out of it, except a helm.
Thanks guys.
FB

[Forkbeard]

Holy ****! I figured it out.
I'm making finger gauntlets. I have the fingers doen already. The fingertips all gound out on the stick. The index and pinky both ground out all the way. I have all the parts made and will put them together tonight and tomorrow.
I still need to figure out the thumbs, they need to be soilid joints and ground out. I need to find a good set of pics of nice ones.
I'm following the wisby style hand and cuff. All the hidden parts are going to be plastic to save weight, but all the exposed plates, which are the important ones for strength, are 16 ga stainless.
Pics are on my facebook page, but I'll try to get them up here soon.
I had no idea how easy this would be. I mean, it's hard, but about1/10th as hard I thought.
FB

[Arrakis]

Well, **** yeah.

[Forkbeard]

I dont know if this will post.


It a pic of the new finger. Well, one of them.
FB

[Caleidah]

Link was broken.

[Forkbeard]

All right, that's sexy.
FB

[Arrakis]

My God, Fork.

That's delicious.

[Ramius]

How much would you charge to make another set, exactly as you are describing (Wisby cuff w/plastic plates, fingers 16g steel)?

Or even how much would you charge for shaped finger set?

Fingered gauntlets are by far the second most expensive piece you can buy in the SCA (right behind AMAZING helmets). If they are easy enough to make for you....

YOU COULD BE SITTING ON A GOLD MINE, TREBEK!

-Ramius

[Arrakis]

There is great truth above this post.

[Forkbeard]

After I finish mine I have to make a pair for Magnus.
After THAT, I'l know for sure how much they'll cost. Right now I'm still figureing out just what tools to use on which part. I'm leaving some serious hammer marks in some places becuase I don't have all the hammers and **** I need. (I only have about a dozen hammers now) You wouldn't believe how many **** hammers you need for this crap.
I'm thinking about $500-$600 a pair.
If I can get press parts made or figure out something majical, it could be less. As it is, I'm thinking its going to be about 50 hours labor(it takes a while to talk a piece of steel into the idea that it's the wrong shape and should look like your finger.)
Right now, it's Lyliths birthday, so I'm done for a couple days. I also need to get leather for the body of the gaunts from Magnus.
Thanks for your support, guys. It really help me keep going when the fingers are smashed.
FB

[Wisp]

Hey Forkbeard,

Those look great! I'd like to see the finished photo when they are complete!

Will

[Caleidah]

Partly inspired by this thread, I talked to a few guys from the local SCA kingdom and am going to go out to a practice this Wednesday to swing some more stick.

[Forkbeard]

DO IT!! it really helps you get a different veiw of fighting. I love it.
And ratten doesn't really hurt as much as you think.
Have fun, bro.
FB

[Caleidah]

Oh definitely. I'm really looking forward to it. That said, I know a few guys from the SCA group are going to be coming to our practice tomorrow to see what Belegarth is like.

[Forkbeard]

Show them all the stuff thats different.
Shield bashing and kicking. Grapling over 2 handed weapons, they love that.
And shield breaking. If any of them fight with greatweapons in the sca they will LOVE the idea of breaking shields. You could get a few new permantent fighters if you highlight the stuff they wish they could do in the sca.
I feel that once people realize they can play more than one game without drama, you can't stop them.
Most people, when they encounter onther groups, seem to feel like you're going to "steal their players". I always tell crossovers that they should absolutley NOT quit whatever other organisation they are currently with. Whatever they get from it(RolePlaying, Headshots, Whatever) they aren't going to get here. But what we have here is fun and they are welcome to it. It will increase their skills and enhance the other games they play.
Once you convince them they aren't being "stolen" to play our game, they come out whenever they get a chance.
Have fun.
FB

[Spyn]

Went out and fought on Sunday Fork. They were unprepared for a skilled two sword-er. As expected hitting people with rattan still very very fun, getting hit makes you not want to get hit again. I worked the ribs allot since most were head seekers.


SPyn

[Arrakis]

Yeah... I really want to work on my two-stick in the SCA, but I need to get a really solid, protective kit before I go that route. Too many bruises...

[Ramius]

Yeah... I really want to work on my two-stick in the SCA, but I need to get a really solid, protective kit before I go that route. Too many bruises...

You should totally put the WAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHmbulance on your speed dial, too.



You bruise a few times, your skin toughens up, and you learn to block better. Plus, when you wear less armor, people start to wonder for as my knight says, "Those who wear the least amount of armor are either badass or * crazy."

-Ramius

[Arrakis]

Well, sure.

But the only guys who come to the practice I've been hitting are a pair of Masters who like to fight pole, greatsword, and, to a lesser extent, S&B. You NEED thigh armor against those sorts of people, especially fighting Flo.

[Titan G]

you should totally out math them arrakis, then there is no need for protection