Training the Noobs

Discuss how to become a better fighter and training methods for teaching new fighters.

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Training the Noobs

Postby Vandey » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:26 pm

Alright well our group just got a batch of new members. And this batch has alittle of everything wrong. We have some chickens who leave there teamates to die when its four of them against one of us. We have ones who have problems with hitting with the flat or non striking side of a weapon. We have people who wont take there shots, people calling there shots, people who dont hit hard enough for us to feel the shot (if we know were hit we take it) So as you can see we need some serious help. Any tips you guys can think of?? thanks alot
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:45 pm

1. You need a leader who asserts field dominance. One who is ALWAYS right and can handle being wrong with grace. People who call their own shots need to be dealt with a firm hand in no uncertain terms.

2. Flatters can be helped in a few ways. Oblong handles, keeping their thumb up while fighting, just being conscience.

The most important thing to remember is that a newb doesn't go from there to a vet over night. Just let them have fun for a couple of months, and figure out which ones have potential and which ones don't give a ****.

VISIT OTHER PRACTICES. I know it's winter, and we in Dunharrow believe that the winter is for putting in extra time at work and getting your real life in a row for the next season. I've been building and painting 40k, Warhammer and War Machine stuff like crazy. But you guys have been out there a couple of years now and you've never visited. Now I know, neither have we much, but in our defense we didn't know you existed. And Fridays after school is balls for most of us M-F 9-5 types. But visiting other practices is pretty huge in Belegarth. It will increase YOUR skill set, which will further help you train OTHERS. But being a role model, the kind of fighter others want to be (Did you see that spin shot!?! Disgusting!!!) they'll be more likely to listen to what you have to say.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Vandey » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:57 pm

Thanks for the tips but i was posting this because we have given that little grace period and we still seem to have issues with the runner espically. He had three friends each with a sheild and a blue and there was one better fighter left. well lets just say three advanced and this guy ran away leaving his buddies behind. And so we dont vist cause you never call anymore its not like when we first fell in love!! im sorry bad joke forgive me.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Sir Anastasia » Tue Feb 02, 2010 8:58 pm

here's a few practice recommendations we use from time to time.

Chickens: You can play a battle we call "No Soren left behind," where if any one person on your time dies, the whole team dies-makes people stay close together and fight. Variations on King Battles, ect.
Flats: make sure everyone knows that these are unacceptable and that it is their duty to tell someone that they were hit with a flat and that the receiver should not take target damage. Make sure your XP'd people do this if they mess up, so your noobs can see the vets take this seriously. The Vets must lead by example on this-or get a herald on the field.
Calling Shots: Make sure that they know this is considered "rude," but it would be alright if they want to ask where the shot landed. This feedback helps noobs understand the feel of hitting different targets and equipment. We also tell people not to be offended if someone asks where a shot landed, it doesn't mean that they think you sluffed it, it means that they didn't know what/where the blade went. Get a herald once and a while and call people dead for declaring their shots.
Uber Light Hits (and many of the other problems): Spar with people one on one, when your hits are graze tell them not to take it, when their hits are graze or light, tell them it is no good, then demonstrate a proper hit. Ask them if they can feel the difference when they are hit and also when their sword makes good contact. It is better to do this one on one than in a group-they can't blow you off or attribute it to being a sore loser.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Glendor » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:08 pm

Big Jimmy, I think Shagrath once went to one of your practices but I am not sure. During the winter the vets in our group go to Murdocks practices. He is like our father realm we are not officially HD but he comes to almost all of our practices when he can and we go to his. I would love to come to your practices next time you have one just tell me the time and i will try to be there.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:20 pm

We fight in Elgin at Wing Park 5pm on Tuesdays. I SHOULD be hitting up Dekalb this weekend.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Glendor » Tue Feb 02, 2010 9:44 pm

Great so am I, and so you also fight in the cold? if so then I might be able to come next week

nvm my brother is working so I cant get there but I might be able to get a ride from Shagrath to the HD practice.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Feb 02, 2010 10:19 pm

Sorry, I mean to say that we fight in Tuesdays in the spring to fall. Usually the week before spring war to the week after octfest, or so.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Forkbeard » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:24 am

Ana, I'm really trying to be nice to you, but ****, woman.
Calling Shots: Make sure that they know this is considered "rude," but it would be alright if they want to ask where the shot landed. This feedback helps noobs understand the feel of hitting different targets and equipment. We also tell people not to be offended if someone asks where a shot landed, it doesn't mean that they think you sluffed it, it means that they didn't know what/where the blade went. Get a herald once and a while and call people dead for declaring their shots.

It is not considered "rude " to call some one else hit. It is pattendedly illegal. You never tell another person they are hit unless you are a herald or an archer. NEVER.
When noob apears to get hit and doesn't take it, tell the herald to watch them. When they contintue, the herald should make sure they know to call garb or light when not taking what is clearly a hit. If they continue not taking their hits, the herlad removes them from the field.
At no time should you tell your opponent they need to take a hit.
People not taking hits are cheating.
Telling people they are hit is cheating.
Don't do either
The rest of Ana's advice is good.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Glendor » Wed Feb 03, 2010 3:23 pm

But you might be going to the HD practice? because I am planning on it
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Isk » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:18 pm

Fork, I agree with you that no melee combatant should call anyone else's hits for them. Period.

What Ana said, though, was that with noobs it's appropriate to ask whether a shot landed/where it landed which I think is a good idea. At practice, if I think a shot landed solidly and they don't tell me where it hit, I often ask what it hit. I know it hit something, the sword stopped, and I want people trained to communicate that it was hand-on-weapon, mostly-shield, garb, head, etc. so that when they go to an event they communicate clearly with other fighters. This should be done politely, asking for clarification, but being asked at practice helps them be more aware of communicating and taking their hits well, especially on a small field without a regular herald.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Sir Anastasia » Wed Feb 03, 2010 6:35 pm

I think Isk summed up what I meant very well. These were suggestions for practice with a noob group. Also, I couldn't find it in the BOW that calling shots was illegal.

Only: 1.3. The target of an attack makes combat hit determinations.

Can someone reference me the rule where it says it is illegal? Otherwise I'll still assume it is more a matter of proper etiquette not to call shots on your opponent. This is a very minor point about a gritty detail, but I do think there is a difference between illegal and bad sportsmanship/noobishness.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Big King Jimmy » Wed Feb 03, 2010 9:55 pm

Ana, that rules SAYS IT'S ILLEGAL.

At best, you're trying to determine combat hits, which the rules say you can't do if you throw a shot, only if you receive one. At worst, you will ALWAYS come across as saying "hey man, you're cheating."

You're the only person I've ever met in my entire fighting career who doesn't view this as a hard and fast rule and a cornerstone of our sport.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Isk » Thu Feb 04, 2010 1:40 am

Ana, if you are not the herald, or the archer, you shouldn't call anyone else's shots. Ever. If there is a problem going on, we ask someone to herald for a few rounds.

What I agree with, is that sometimes, not all the time, it helps people to learn to communicate and to pay attention to everything that is going on to ask them what just happened. They are still in charge of calling the shot, but they need to be aware of when the person fighting them would think they hit leg, but it was really their downsword or just caught on their garb and everyone will get along better if they call it out. This is for practice, not the event field and it can be done constructively and respectfully.

Challenging other people's honor at taking hits is NOT a good idea, whether they are a noob or a vet. People need to feel trusted and respected while simultaneously being taught what to take and what to communicate about. Maybe teaching solely by example is a better way, but for me it has worked to ask for my opponent to clarify what was struck if it's unclear to me.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby varadin » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:19 am

keeping their thumb up while fighting


BAD jimmy, breaking new kids thumbs is a bad thing.

As for the calling peoples shots. When they are brand new on the side and sparring. If you think you hit them ask them about it. Dont say " HEY I HIT YOU" say things like "I thought i hit you on the leg, was it light or something?" let them explain it or realize they are new and just missed it. On the field though thats a heralds call no doubt. Its why you hit people hard, so they dont have to question it when their legs explode in pain for a second.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:32 am

I know, I know, but that's very rare, and for a newb it DOES solve the problem.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Forkbeard » Thu Feb 04, 2010 9:44 am

When we have no herald at practice, we always have one field herald, so to speak. A guy who is fighting but is also watching and settling disputes and whatnot. Primarily they are there to watch the noobs. Being the Herald, they are the one who talks to the noobs about what may or may not have hit them. This maintains the "Only heralds tell you, you got hit" idea.
When we're first teaching someone the rules, we do it off the field. Sparring on the sidelines is NOT the fiield, therefore it is the place to suspend the rules in order to teach some thick shlub the game.
Ana, Jimmy beat me to it but, ****, what more do you need than the rules:
1.3. The target of an attack makes combat hit determinations.
to tell you the **** rules.
I don't know what you're reading here, but in american english it says, Don't call * dead. * decide when they are dead.
How much more do you need to be told?
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Arrakis » Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:16 am

Big Jimmy wrote:I know, I know, but that's very rare, and for a newb it DOES solve the problem.


Or just teach them rogue grip or flat grip or mod. saber?

Or hand them a bat?
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:31 am

I don't really think rogue grip or flat grip is gonna help with flats, since usually with newbs I see it from rotating your shot funny as you swing, not swinging with the flat through the whole swing. And I can't even get a mod. saber grip down, Mel's tried to get me to do it a bunch of times, and each time it's "No, not quite like that, like this:"

Giving a bat to someone who flats is like jerry rigging a car fix. It works, but it's not the best solution.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Arrakis » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:44 am

I mostly see flats on crosses, typically high crosses. They throw without torquing their wrist or adjusting their grip and smack the person full-on with the flat of their sword and don't even notice. Rogue grip and flat grip fix that instantly.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Sir Anastasia » Thu Feb 04, 2010 11:54 am

It was more of an English thing. I think it actually calls headshots "illegal" in the BOW, but that wasn't the phrasing here. It doesn't explicitly say anything regarding calling hits on other people, which is what I meant. It really doesn't matter anyway, I'm in now way advocating calling shots, but technically I don't see where it is illegal, only that there is a strong precedent or culture for thinking it is. Which is fine by me anyway. If you think it needs a stronger phrasing for the BOW, where it actually says that it is illegal, I would be in support of that rule change. Once again, I think the confusion here is in minute details of argument and phrasing. But it really doesn't say anything about calling shots as it is written now, there is only the implication through interpretation. Do you understand what I am arguing now?
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:06 pm

No.

I mean, sure, kinda, but the rules say: "Only person A does this." And you say "Well it doesn't say person B can do that, or that ONLY person A can do that."

But it's written as as a rule, why would it be in the book of war if what they really meant was "this is one person who can do this, we won't go into the other examples where other people can."

It's silly.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:08 pm

Arrakis wrote:I mostly see flats on crosses, typically high crosses. They throw without torquing their wrist or adjusting their grip and smack the person full-on with the flat of their sword and don't even notice. Rogue grip and flat grip fix that instantly.


Right, but then when they flat grip (not so much on rogue grip, but still kind of) and throw a straight shot, they flat someone. The thumb up method teaches them to pay attention to where their blade is pointed, which is the proper way to solve the problem.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Arrakis » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:11 pm

1.3. The target of an attack makes combat hit determinations.

This is directly equivalent to its inversion:

If someone is not the target of an attack, that person does not make combat hit determinations for that attack.

The rules thus indicate that it is not acceptable for anyone other than the target of an attack to make combat hit determinations. That is, it is not allowed by the rules. "Not allowed by the rules" - impermissible, disallowed, against the rules, illegal.

It is illegal (it goes against the rules of Belegarth) for anyone to make combat hit determinations for another person, excepting that the determiner is a Herald or an archer determining hit location for one of his or her own bow-based attacks.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Isk » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:23 pm

Forkbeard wrote:When we have no herald at practice, we always have one field herald, so to speak. A guy who is fighting but is also watching and settling disputes and whatnot. Primarily they are there to watch the noobs. Being the Herald, they are the one who talks to the noobs about what may or may not have hit them. This maintains the "Only heralds tell you, you got hit" idea.

I like that approach Fork. Being the one responsible for asking questions or overseeing things is essentially the job of the realm leader right now, but making it formal by calling a 'field herald' helps reinforce that this is a herald's job and only a herald's job. It also allows for rotating it to spread the responsibility around. I think we'll pick that up.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Osric/Mageta » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:46 pm

Isk wrote:I like that approach Fork. Being the one responsible for asking questions or overseeing things is essentially the job of the realm leader right now, but making it formal by calling a 'field herald' helps reinforce that this is a herald's job and only a herald's job. It also allows for rotating it to spread the responsibility around. I think we'll pick that up.


I pretty much do the field heralding at our practice in Riverdale and it's usually a non issue. If there's an issue it's usually handled off field between fights because most people are chill with the new guys. Only if it's extremely blatant do I ever call anything out mid-fight.

On topic though, I've found that the number one thing you can do with a new person is just be patient and let them know that if they have questions to ask you or people who have been doing this for a while. I can't say I've ever really met anybody in Bel who's not been forthcoming with information related to the sport.
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Re: Training the Noobs

Postby Poo » Mon Feb 08, 2010 8:05 pm

I started a realm last summer, and had a large influx of new fighters very quickly. Had lots of problems with headshots, flatting, running away, calling hits, and whatnot. For about a month, i just took the role of herald, making sure that everything ran smoothly. I was loud and obnoxious, and didn't take any excuses. After that time, calling shots, flatting, taking stuff you shouldn't went to an acceptable level. After that time, i started running battles where if you backed up, you died; and Circle of death. Everyone stands in a circle, call in random people at random times and they fight it out hard and fast with no stopping. Those games reduced the running away immensely, and got all of the newer fighters accustomed to fighting in close, and not being afraid of getting hit.

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