Florentine Vs Red Sword

[Nero]

I fight florentine and i go up against people with red swords all the time but can't seem to get within stricking distance due to the length difference in our swords so I need help on getting within range of a red sword with out losing a limb or dying

[Michael]

Its definitely true that as a two sword fighter going up against a fast red weapon you have a disadvantage. How well you minimize that disadvantage will likely determine your success. Obviously, your first goal is to get inside the longer weapon's effective reach. If you stay at range, he can hit you and you cant hit him. That a recipe for failure. Also since the red has the exact oposite priorities, once you start rushing you sort of have to keep it up as he will likely back pedal.

In general you want to look for the first serious attack, block it hard and outside (outside and down is better than outside and up) and they rush If you can keep on block on the red and if you can close faster than he can come off that block, you have a decent chance since once you have inside position he has to block too, which at close range definitely interferes with his ability to throw shots.

The above all assumes that the fight is basically one on one. As a Florentine fighter in a line battle, you need to flank. You can get more favorable oppertunities to rush reds when they are committed to swinging at other people.

In the midwest, we have most of our winter events in gyms and arenas where flanking is very tough. Such conditions are quite hard on Florentine fighters in the middle of the line since reds and missles alike are all trained on them. Usually under these conditions, the best bet is to play cautious until a flank breaks through and then rush immeadiately to support the breakout into the backfield where greater space allows you to use distance as a defensive element more easily. Then you look to flank reds same as you would on a larger field.

[Forkbeard]

By crossing your swords you can support the top one(that contacts you oponents sword) with the bottom one. Wait for the guy to take a good swing at you. Now, catch it on your crossed swords. Step in and push up very quickly. Now your inside. Take your bottom sword(keeping you top sword in contact with the opponents weapon) and wrap the dude in the torso wherever he's open. This will depend on what hand is doing what on each of you but there will be a large opening.
This works great against spears.
Be careful not to just stand around with your swords crossed, though. This gives you away.
FB

[Vandey]

Wow great tips i used to fight florentine. And agaisnt my groups red weapons users i eneded up faking alot if your fast once they swing thens your chance to get in. And remember as long as its not striking im pretty sure you can grap the handle of your openents weapon. we do it alot then we end up grappaling but if you have two weapons one hand holds the weapon the other makes the kill.

[Beck]

Wear sturdy padded gloves, punch block, punch block, punch block. (if this ISN'T safe DO NOT do it. By safe I mean he is using some monster of a sword, really good with it or is just a general badass.) take a step forward and connect with the blade you aren't using to punch block with. It's easiest to hit their forearm usually.

[Forkbeard]

Do not punch block. This Becket kid is a moron.
Punch blocking, while legal in Bel, is stupid and dangerous. Especialy when facing red weapons. You can't tell if the guy is "a badass" or whether his weapon is padded properly, or if his previously well padded weapon has broken down, or whether he'll pull his weapon in and hit your knuckles with the handle(shattering them), or, well, you get it.
Padded gloves will not save you from red weapons. Why do you thin SCA guys wear gauntlets? It's not just the rattan blades, it's the handles banging together.
Learn to fight properly. Parry and riposte. Direct your oppnents blade to where you want it to be.
As a red fighter, really good dual weapons weilders are one of the bigger threats.
FB

[Slagar]

I wear heavy-duty MMA gloves, and I've punch blocked reds all day long (from people like Soth and Falkor, too, so I don't want to hear about how real fighters would hurt me). Beckett's advice is far better than "cross your swords" and pirouette, or whatever. Push/punch that shot outside, and swat the red fighter. As simple as that.

That being said, do not punch-block anything without gloves on. I've broken several people's thumbs and knuckles, because they stuck their hand in front of my shot with no protection (with a blue sword). Spend the money, get some really sturdy gloves. It makes the game so much more fun when you don't have to worry about this crap.

[Arrakis]

Don't wait for them to swing if you're planning on stop-/punch-blocking; get to their blade before it gets moving fast and you can punch-block with much less worry. That, or just parry their shot into the ground and roll 'em up.

[Kyrian]

One approach I use when going up against a red sword when fighting florentine is "block-check-counter". It's an approach that can also be applied against a spear and also while fighting sword and board or single-sword. You would basically block the shot towards the outside, immediately follow up with a check shot with your other weapon that either traps or blocks the weapon in place (even better if you can hit one of his arms but that can be tough), and then a third attack to a vulnerable target. Against a spear, I will normally use a circular block to bring the spear up instead of trying to bring it down. My reasoning is that a skilled spearman can often bounce the spear point off the ground and use that energy to hit you in the legs or groin. Since you can't swing with a spear, hitting it upwards tends to limit the spearman's targeting options unless he backs off. Keep in mind that this is not the case with a glaive or sword. They can still be swung downwards, typically either to your shoulders or pivoted down to hit your legs. With sword and board, you can use the shield to check your opponent's weapon in a similar fashion to using a sword.

One of the most important things to remember is that you can't simply post and take the attacks. You have to incorporate movement to get inside the red sword's range. In integrating this with "block-check-counter", I will normally step at a 45-degree angle to my opponent as I'm either blocking or checking his sword. This brings me inside his effective range while allowing me to use my shorter weapons more effectively. Letting the red fighter control the range of the fight is exactly what he wants to happen. He can pick you at range while minimizing his chances of getting hit.

[Forkbeard]

Slagar, I also do all sorts of dangerous **** when I fight.
I just don't teach those things to annoymous new people. **** kids on the internet cannot be trusted to go out and buy proper gloves. Even with them, you really can't punch block everything. You have to learn how and when you can get away with that ****.
Not to mention that punch blocks don't count in all organisations. Becuase they are a cheesey way to fight.
If you don't inderstand the value of using one weapon to back up the other to stop and direcft a glaive where you want it, you're missing a big part of dual weapon fighting.
FB

[Slagar]

Fair enough on all points. I know when and how to block shots to minimize the strain on my wrist/elbow/shoulder, and this kid may not. I've spent the last three years exploring which gloves work, and this kid probably hasn't.

I also suck huge rocks at fighting two-stick, and was extrapolating from what works for me when I fight reds using single blue. If you don't have the shoulders/technique to stop a red swing one handed, using two is a decent option, I'd guess.

Good points, Fork.

Out of curiousity, which sports don't allow punch-blocking? SCA, Amt, Dag, and Bel all allow it. I don't know who else would be relevant. I'm just asking because my experience outside of Bel is pretty limited, and I'd be interested to know.

[Beck]

Slagar, I also do all sorts of dangerous **** when I fight.
I just don't teach those things to annoymous new people. **** kids on the internet cannot be trusted to go out and buy proper gloves. Even with them, you really can't punch block everything. You have to learn how and when you can get away with that ****.
Not to mention that punch blocks don't count in all organisations. Becuase they are a cheesey way to fight.
If you don't inderstand the value of using one weapon to back up the other to stop and direcft a glaive where you want it, you're missing a big part of dual weapon fighting.
FB

So does this mean I'm off the hook for giving bad advice? It's just down to decent advice (at times) to the wrong person?


Oh and Forkbeard, Thanks for the sig:

This Becket kid is a moron.
FB

[Forkbeard]

Emp and WMA. Probly those arma weirdos. I'm pretty sure it's not kosher if your doing martial arts with weapons.
I personally try not to punch block becuase it's bad form. It's also a very bad habit. If/when you are in an actual altercation, punching whatever the bad guy throws at you insticivly is bad, no matter how you slice it. Just my opinion.
I'm trying to get away from Basket hilts in the SCA so I won't start relying on them. I'm working on plastic Gauntlets now. Super light.
FB

[Loptr]

I use Century or Harbinger MMA/bag gloves. They cost $40-50 bux and are the shiznizzle for protection of all but the last knuckle.

I use punch block style blocks with a high degree of regularity. When I say punch block I do not mean using my fist to block. I choke up on my weapon so that the pommel area and the first part of the blade both give a very sturdy blocking area (fulcrum concept) and put my block right above or below my fist.

I have seen some pretty nasty injuries from poorly executed/ poorly protected hands. In all the systems I give two **** in fighting in its is a legal and effective strategy. Like any technique it takes practice to make effective and to learn what you can and cannot block.

Choke up, close, block away, close, block andy successful second swing/attack, close, close, close, close.

Fork,
I am having trouble visualizing your block with two weapons suggestion. Are you talking about making an x and trapping the swing inside the x? Or is this a use the second weapon to lend support to the first thereby soaking more inertia?
One on one I suspect the x could work ok, but in a line fight ,one one or one on many it seems like your over commiting resources and leaving yourself very open to other attacks.

Loptr

[Soo Ma Tai]

I have applied the tech FB is suggesting with great success over the years. When I do the x block it's not so much an x as a |. Keep in mind I fight from a tiger's mouth grip at the top of the handle, almost exclusivly. I am also not a real big guy and have used this to block shots from Magnus and FB without issue. I'll try to explain how I do it....

I place my right hand closest to my opponent with it's sword down, I place my left hand palm side against my first blade, sword up. At this point my hands are approx 6" apart, the back of my right hand is against the left blade, my left hand is palm side against the right blade and the two swords make a line, not an x. I try to engage my opponent before he attacks me, this reduces the force applied to the wrists, etc. when the block is made.(closer to handle=less force) Once I have made contact with the opponents weapon, either by moving in and checking it, or blocking their shot, I sweep the right hand low at a leg, which usually causes them to lower their guard, and use the left to push tthe weapon downward. I continue the motion of the right hand over the top to a flat cross. Immediately after contact with the cross, drop the right onto the opponents weapon and strike left at the nearest viable target. Depending on your opponents armor, you may have to keep beating them, but once you have them on the defensive, keep them there.

Loptr, I'll show you how it works when we next meet.

FB- I couldn't agree more about punch blocking as a habit and real life. That's just training to get broken hands. It's highly viable as a game tactic, but it's bad habits for real life.

[GvK]

When I fight red/green sword vs. 2-weapon, I am looking to jam a *hard* thrust to the midline using the superior reach of the weapon; those thrusts are very hard to block. So, most cuts I'm making are to set up the thrust or to disengage if the thrust does not happen. All things being equal, a red sword user without a thrusting tip is at a disadvantage against a 2-weapon user, but less so if the weapon is light, stiff, and well-balanced. But take the latter weapon and add a low-profile thrusting tip, then all things being equal, I'd say the red/green sword user may have a slight advantage, if he/she also has good coverage with armor, then the advantage grows since any aremor the 2-weapon user has will be ignored by a red hit or 2-handed thrust.

[Forkbeard]

Sure, we could tell him the truth. But he already knows the red guys gonna kill him.
FB

[bo1]

this thread is priceless.

thanks all.

i think that punch blocking is a bad way to live in this sport. many many injures to the knuckles/fingers/wrists with and without gloves. I try to always block with the portion of the sword 4 to 6 inches infront of my hand. this is good for reds, flails and blues alike. flails harmlessly wrap my blade, reds i use more of a guiding motion, to set aside the shot ( to use tolfers guide), with blues i just look to stone wall them out of position.


just me and my thoughts, do what works and ignore the rest.

[GvK]

I have to agree about punch-blocking, in that vets with VERY GOOD hand protection and who know how and when to do it (or not do it), can minimize the risk of serious hand/finger injury, but it is still there. So, they're still rolling the dice, but in a much more calculated and less risk way. Like Bo stated, it is far more safe and almost as effective to punch-block using the lower edge of your weapon (e.g., called the "strong" portion of a longsword in WMA). Break a hand, finger, or pull a soft tisse hyperextension to a thumb (right hand twice, left once for me) will keep you on the sidelines for weeks, if not months.

I use light street hockey gloves with good thumb protection and decent finger and wrist protection, and I would not make a habit of punch blocking because the padded gloves are not nearly sufficient.