Swing Speed.

Discuss how to become a better fighter and training methods for teaching new fighters.

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Swing Speed.

Postby Beck » Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:31 pm

Pretty basic, just wondering how I can swing faster. I already do pell work but if you know of any drills that would be awesome, or some tips even.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Slagar » Wed Mar 03, 2010 11:38 pm

Work out. Develop a weight-lifting routine focusing on your upper body. Special emphasis on isolating and really working your triceps, biceps, forearms, deltoids, lats, traps, abs, and obliques. This will let you swing waaaay faster than you could otherwise.

Other than that, I'd say block-strike and SCA-style speed drills are your best bet. I've posted links to my favorite SCA drills around here somewhere, and block-strike has been covered to death. Best of luck.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Aegis » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:48 am

to add to above, when youre doing the exercises, the faster you do them (safely with proper form) the more you will build the fast twitch muscles you want.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Thu Mar 04, 2010 12:21 pm

I will add to what has been said.

Relax, relax, relax. The more tense you are, the slower your shots will travel due to the drag on the arm made by reverse muscle tension. It should take very little effort on the swordfighters part to throw several shots in a row. It a matter of guiding the weapon as opposed to forcing it where you want it.

I also have to kinda disagree with Aegis...It is better to work slowly, the slower the better. This will help you to develop better form and all that. Once your form and technique are good, then begin practicing explosive power. This can be trained easily....

1. Start at medium speed (like a medium hard shot, so not much force in th shot)
2. Throw the shot you are practicing at something..swinging at nothing can result in strain that is un-necessary.
3. What you want to focus on here is the very beginning of your shot, at this point the rest doesn't matter.
4. The idea here is to go from static (0%) to full swing (100%) with no lag between. Like firing a gun, you pull the trigger and that's it, boom.
5. **CAUTION** IF you try to practice this with bad form, you will most likely hurt yourself. So please train carefully.

If you have any questions, PM me or whatever. I can always go into more detail or post vids, etc.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Aegis » Thu Mar 04, 2010 4:41 pm

im referring to the workout, not the shots themselves.

if youre disagreeing with how to build fast twitch muscles thru workouts, then im gonna have to respectfully disagree and point you at some literature, everywhere.

as far as becoming a better fighter and learning shots, i agree completely, throwing fast shots to learn will not teach you good form. Shots should become muscle memory, which can be done at any speed, but must be precise before speeding up to become correct at high speed.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Vandey » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:23 pm

Hmmm theres the old fashioned way that i used. Use a heavier weapon then what you normally use. get good with that weight then ur original weapon and presto! you now swing faster. =p hope it works for you
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Aegis » Thu Mar 04, 2010 7:49 pm

That works because you're building muscle, it's faster to use weights and build your fast twitch and then practice calibration with the weapon you will be using

plus my favorite new information
3xhigh intensity 30 min weightlifting routines a week has th same potential calorie burn as 10 miles a day 7 days a week
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Kage » Thu Mar 04, 2010 11:49 pm

I only have 3 words.

Proper body mechanics.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Beck » Sat Mar 06, 2010 2:48 pm

Kage wrote:I only have 3 words.

Proper body mechanics.

Mine aren't perfect, but you can only go so far with them. Just like some boxers and MMA fighters strike faster, same technique they are just faster. Thanks for the advice and answers.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Shino » Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:35 pm

Beck wrote:
Kage wrote:I only have 3 words.

Proper body mechanics.

Mine aren't perfect, but you can only go so far with them. Just like some boxers and MMA fighters strike faster, same technique they are just faster. Thanks for the advice and answers.


Shadowbox with your weapons. This will help your mind and muscles adapt to the weapons you are using and also will help your body learn the motions you are going to be using.

Now technique + shadowboxing is up to you. Know what moves you are practicing. Don't just be random or repeat poor shots.

I shadow box with my left hand sometimes because sometimes I think that maybe one day I just might have to use it. [insert * joke here]

Shadowboxing will probably help to make you faster.v :neutral: v
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Arrakis » Sat Apr 10, 2010 8:58 pm

Adding to that:

Get a pell. I bought an Everlast standing heavy bag and it's perfect for throwing all sorts of shots at.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Tiberius Claudius » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:13 am

Aegis wrote:plus my favorite new information
3xhigh intensity 30 min weightlifting routines a week has th same potential calorie burn as 10 miles a day 7 days a week


Curious

Is this high intensity leg work outs (larger muscles, more calories burned) or some sort of full-body hybrid with cardio like Tae Bo et al plus weights?
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Forkbeard » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:18 am

Move your arm faster and stop getting hit.
Easy
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Freki » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:09 pm

Forkbeard wrote:Move your arm faster and stop getting hit.
Easy
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I use the shadow boxing tech here when I'm deployed. Not to many people wanna spar let along be seean with a sword...over ehre i get the role models thing alot.. I have noticed my shots getting faster though
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Thoop » Tue Apr 13, 2010 8:41 am

Tiberius Claudius wrote:
Aegis wrote:plus my favorite new information
3xhigh intensity 30 min weightlifting routines a week has th same potential calorie burn as 10 miles a day 7 days a week


Curious

Is this high intensity leg work outs (larger muscles, more calories burned) or some sort of full-body hybrid with cardio like Tae Bo et al plus weights?


Pretty much any high intensity work, especially when it involves the entire body, is going to burn more calories than steady state workouts like slowly running a long distance or what have you. A while back I read a study by Dr. Izuma Tabita (I think that was his name) that demonstrated this beautifully. Google Tabita intervals and check it out.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby No'Vak » Tue Apr 13, 2010 10:40 am

Thoop wrote:
Tiberius Claudius wrote:
Aegis wrote:plus my favorite new information
3xhigh intensity 30 min weightlifting routines a week has th same potential calorie burn as 10 miles a day 7 days a week


Curious

Is this high intensity leg work outs (larger muscles, more calories burned) or some sort of full-body hybrid with cardio like Tae Bo et al plus weights?


Pretty much any high intensity work, especially when it involves the entire body, is going to burn more calories than steady state workouts like slowly running a long distance or what have you. A while back I read a study by Dr. Izumi Tabata (I think that was his name) that demonstrated this beautifully. Google Tabata intervals and check it out.


FTFY :P.

http://www.tabataprotocol.com/
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Rakhir » Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:28 pm

I know you were thinking physical workous, but if you're already beyond rank newbie status and not a complete wimp I think you'll find that you shave the most apparent speed off of your shots by improving your mental reactions. Guiding your opponent into doing exactly what you want will make even middle-aged fat guys look blazing fast. :P

If you watch fight footage you'll probably notice that good fighters known for hand speed aren't actually appreciably faster than others, they just start sooner.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Thorondor » Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:04 pm

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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Slagar » Sat Jul 03, 2010 8:11 am

Legitimate contributions /= necro. Dude's right, anyway. Most of 'speed' in fighting is just about starting earlier than the other guy. If I know where your guard is going to expose, I can swing there ahead of time, and it looks like I'm way faster than I really am.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Mynok » Sun Jul 18, 2010 2:09 pm

My group tries to go full speed at each other every time we spar . We try to use maximum force so that we learn to fight at that high rate of speed.
The harder you train the better you will become and sometimes its good to record videos of practice just so you can review what worked and what didnt.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Brennon EH » Mon Jul 19, 2010 10:11 am

You may actually get more out of slowing it down. Speed is a byproduct of doing everything correctly in the proper sequence. Often if you focus on 'doing it fast' or 'going full force' you're missing a lot of the subtle nuance in getting the form correct. This means you might be faster right now, but you're ultimately hindering the development of your full potential.

I would say you should practice the form of shots and maneuvers at a slow, comfortable speed, and focusing on picking up the pace gradually as you can keep the same good form. If your form isn't right, don't move the speed up. Focus on figuring out why your form is off.

If you're doing it right, swinging fast and hitting hard isn't difficult. It's more about the proper application of force than about having MORE force.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Blackhawk » Mon Jul 19, 2010 11:46 am

Rakhir wrote:I know you were thinking physical workous, but if you're already beyond rank newbie status and not a complete wimp I think you'll find that you shave the most apparent speed off of your shots by improving your mental reactions. Guiding your opponent into doing exactly what you want will make even middle-aged fat guys look blazing fast. :P

If you watch fight footage you'll probably notice that good fighters known for hand speed aren't actually appreciably faster than others, they just start sooner.

This.
Another thing to add is small stickers (like stars) on your pell, aim for the sticker and as soon as you hit your mark change to a new sticker to hit. This will force you to change your swings to new locations on the fly. I forces your mind to communicate to your arm that a new location is to be hit, reducing the shots to quick thoughts and muscle memory.

Speed does not equal intense. Realistic, brutal, savage, simulated dark age combat is intense. You want speed, go run track!!

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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Mynok » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:25 pm

My old teacher said learn from the pain of messing up if your form is off you will pay if your footwork is off again you will pay so I learned through pain and it made me pretty good really fast but that style of training isnt for everybody .
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Arrakis » Wed Jul 21, 2010 12:54 pm

Mynok wrote:My old teacher said learn from the pain of messing up if your form is off you will pay if your footwork is off again you will pay so I learned through pain and it made me pretty good really fast but that style of training isnt for everybody .


Yeah, I mean, absolutely. I definitely got hit when I was on the field the first time and my immediate thought was "Huh, that hurt; I guess my footwork must have been off. Thank God that pain taught me to step in crescents instead of lines!"

Idiot.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Slagar » Wed Jul 21, 2010 2:13 pm

Hey Arrakis, how's the hip feeling?

Pain is a great teacher, for some folks. I learned in the school of hard knocks myself. If I didn't keep my sword out and angled, my shield up, and my feet moving, I was covered in bruises the next day (I learned originally from Orso and Kenny, back when double cores were still pretty common). It drives home the message just fine. Maybe it isn't for everybody, but it worked alright for me.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Arrakis » Wed Jul 21, 2010 5:08 pm

Feelin' good, Slagar, feelin' good.

I meant, You need more than "lol pain will teach you!" If you didn't tell me how you were getting around my guard and that I needed to bring it farther out for a proper outside denial guard, all pain would have taught me was to go sit down and not fight guys named Slagar.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Mynok » Wed Jul 21, 2010 9:25 pm

I taught my first student the way i was taught but we do have a pell and we do have our drills but he gets his bruises but he keeps coming back for more.
I guess you gotta be one of those take a beating but give it your all types of personality to train the evil old man way . I hated my first teacher but when i wasnt fighting him i kicked total * and the same goes for my student Kisuske.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Thu Jul 22, 2010 12:56 pm

If you come away from sparring with regular bruising, your weapons are not safe, and you are doing it wrong. Properly built weapons should only leave bruises under the most extreeme circumstances. Minor bumps and bruises are ok, consistent bruising is not.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Mynok » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:18 pm

Totally agree most bruises are not the long lasting rattan bruises they are the minor red marks that go away in a couple of hours.
Rattan leaves big nasty welts everwhere so we are experimenting with differnent weapon types so the bruising is very minimal.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Slagar » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:24 pm

I fully and completely disagree. I've helped to run lots of weapons checks at plenty of major events. You hand a passing weapon to someone like either of those guys, and let them swing full force at a newb who's still learning to block, you're gonna get bruises. I'm not complaining, it taught me fast, and it was part of the experience. I respected the game more for having a real component of physical competition.

The misconception that passing weapons cannot leave bruises is a weird idea that I've run into a few times. I don't know where it comes from, but I can pick up pretty much any weapon from a national pass pile and leave a stripe with it if I feel like being a *. Part of being an experienced fighter and kind of a bigger guy is showing the restraint not to in almost all scenarios. Training a newer fighter who's shown an appreciate for actually fighting is not necessarily one of those scenarios.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Arrakis » Fri Jul 23, 2010 8:48 pm

I'm of two minds on the topic:

1. I can bruise you if I want to with most peoples' passing gear. Therefore, the standard is such that passing gear can bruise at the hard end of the spectrum, especially with multiple shots to the same area. That's fine.

2. I can bruise you if I want to with most peoples' passing gear. Therefore, the standard is broken and **** is passing that shouldn't be. We should all add 1/4" of 2# padding to our blue swords and more like 1/2" to our reds.


I doubt 2 will ever come to pass, so.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Thorondor » Fri Jul 23, 2010 9:17 pm

Arrakis wrote:I'm of two minds on the topic:

1. I can bruise you if I want to with most peoples' passing gear. Therefore, the standard is such that passing gear can bruise at the hard end of the spectrum, especially with multiple shots to the same area. That's fine.

2. I can bruise you if I want to with most peoples' passing gear. Therefore, the standard is broken and **** is passing that shouldn't be. We should all add 1/4" of 2# padding to our blue swords and more like 1/2" to our reds.

I doubt 2 will ever come to pass, so.


I'm thinking larger people will need to learn to control themselves more on the field. Safe weapons can bruise with multiple shots to the same area, but some people bruise easier than others. I don't have a doubt some of you larger/harder hitting guys will be able to leave bruises on people easier than I could, even with a hard swing of mine I couldn't do a lot of 'damage' and maybe that's a problem with weapons check. The larger/harder hitting people may need to start checking the weapons to make sure broken gear doesn't pass.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Big King Jimmy » Sat Jul 24, 2010 12:22 am

It's not broken gear, it's perfectly passing gear. You're talking about failing 90% of gear on the field because someone like Peter or Soth can make you look like a grape from swinging at you. That's just not feasible. Some people will bruise you even if you put a pillow in their hands, in their hands it's the death pillow, reaper of souls.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Dane » Sat Jul 24, 2010 5:30 pm

I can't tell you how many times I've seen a herald approach Daemarth and say, "I need to check your sword," take it, check it, and give it back with a shrug. Some people are just burly, and it's awesome.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Mynok » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:26 pm

Okay so whats up with non bendy spears kung fu spears bend alot and so do rattan spears and or nogs but what do you guys use that isnt to rough?
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Arrakis » Sat Jul 24, 2010 8:28 pm

Bendy spears are for show. Real spears are for stabbing and need to be stiff.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby p_quick » Sun Jul 25, 2010 9:31 pm

Big Jimmy wrote:It's not broken gear, it's perfectly passing gear. You're talking about failing 90% of gear on the field because someone like Peter or Soth can make you look like a grape from swinging at you. That's just not feasible. Some people will bruise you even if you put a pillow in their hands, in their hands it's the death pillow, reaper of souls.


I disagree with your option #2 arrakis, and i also agree but disagree with you Soo Ma

I've worked with several people, teaching basic single sword, using the safest swords that you can possibly find and just because shot repetition and common mistakes bruises and little ouchies are very common.

also i want to add that some people just bruise easier then others.

now don't get me wrong, there is such a thing as an unsafe weapon, and our weapon checkers do a fantastic job of keeping weapons that will actually hurt people off the field.

but in my opinion most people need to realize that we play a full contact sport. If you are scared of getting bruised and beaten then go play table tennis, or go to you local Y and join in with bingo night.

-Or-

If you are worried about bruising or being hurt wear the appropriate safety gear. I know several people who wear helmets, or other pieces of armor to protect specific (injury pron) locations.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Mynok » Mon Jul 26, 2010 4:19 pm

Yeah Ive tried to train some people and I found out that you cant be too rough on the new guys some of them cant take a butt kicking so its easier to ease them into this sort of thing . I let my new guys try there hardest to hit me and dodge all of there slow deliberate attacks and frustrate them but without bashing them too much . I found it was easier to get people to stick around was just let them flail and move and laugh at them so when they do land a shot on me its the best thing in the world for them.
But swing speed happens as you learn how to use the weapon,your shots become more accurate and with a little focus you can use a bit of chi with em .
or ki or zhing or whatever you want to call it.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Beck » Mon Aug 30, 2010 10:45 pm

Mynok wrote:Yeah Ive tried to train some people and I found out that you cant be too rough on the new guys some of them cant take a butt kicking so its easier to ease them into this sort of thing . I let my new guys try there hardest to hit me and dodge all of there slow deliberate attacks and frustrate them but without bashing them too much . I found it was easier to get people to stick around was just let them flail and move and laugh at them so when they do land a shot on me its the best thing in the world for them.
But swing speed happens as you learn how to use the weapon,your shots become more accurate and with a little focus you can use a bit of chi with em .
or ki or zhing or whatever you want to call it.

I know this is a necro, but I haven't been on in a long time. What Game/sport are you playing? We don't use rattan either. Without padding.
Noik wrote:And Beck that was dumb.

Forkbeard wrote:This Beck kid is a moron.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Big King Jimmy » Tue Aug 31, 2010 1:19 pm

Beck he's from a group that does a heavily modified SCA style fighting.
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Re: Swing Speed.

Postby Scarecrow » Wed Oct 27, 2010 10:08 pm

This thread has me picking up a weight with my left hand and typing with my right. I am just passively lifting as I browse, and am finding I am getting a bit of a work-out as such. Little things.
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