Martial Arts: Which ones hurt, which ones help?

[Teej]

So I've been heavily considering cross-training lately. Bel/Dag is my main; however, I've been looking into local Amt and SCA. My newest direction is weapon-based martial arts. I was curious if anyone active in this section have experimented with various martial arts and applying them to foam-combat.

I looked at Kendo, but don't see the use with foam-combat; I've heard kali and escrima are a different story.

Any practitioners around?

[Magpie Saegar]

Someone with more experience should chime in (and I'm posting so that I notice their answer).

IMO: I've never trained with weapons in a martial art outside of Belegarth, but I do have to recommend Capoeira anyway. Not that you would actually do it with a foam sword in your hand, but the conditioning and body control that it gives you are very intense, and will help you a lot with Bel combat. Then again, most martial arts have a decent amount of conditioning. And you specifically mentioned weapons.

So I'll step back and wait for the better answer.

[Kensman Bam]

Well Teej since I know you, and I am gonna say that Capoeira is probably not the style for you. For weapons based Martial Arts, I would suggest a few things:

1. Eskrima/Kali - you use a lot of the same motions in single stick combat, and learn a little 2 weapon fighting as well.
You might also look up something like Dog Brother Martial Arts out of Califorinia. Now, as a disclaimer, these guys are crazy, but I like their style.


2. Aikdo - Balance, falling, and most techniques where designed to use with a sword.
Look up some of the old Youtube videos of Steven Seagul back in his day...man he is a bad *!

3. Hapkido - This is a Korean Martial Art that encompasses Judo, TDK, Aikdo, and Ju Jitsu. Lots of weapons later on but it will take a while to get there.

4. TDK - I love that they like to fight, and they do some weapons, but I hate that this has become a point based sport more so than a martial art.

5. Karate - It all depends on the school, but if you go in and there are 150 different colored belts on the wall..turn around and walk out.

[Azgarehta]

For spear fighting, nothing beats Sojutsu. It's the japanese martial art based on the spear. There's some stuff you can discard from it like slices, swings and draw cuts, but the footwork and body mechanics are just gold.

[Samhain Crawford]

Tai Chi might be too soft a martial art for what you're looking for, and finding someone to teach the sword aspect specifically is nigh-impossible, but it teaches balance beautifully, a style of movement that can be very effective for us, and power generation from the core, all right from the very basics.

Another group that I encountered online, though not inperson because they have no chapters near me, is ARMA :Association of Rennaissance Martial Arts. It's a blend of fencers, historians and martial artists recreating historical European combat through analysis of source materials, (of which there are a surprising number) high contact sparring and test cutting with real blades. Their stuff seems real good to me if you just eliminate head-based techniques. They may look down on what we do (there are long rants against SCA, I assume we'd be inline for some of the same objections) but I think there is still some very high level stuff going on there that could benefit Bel fighters if approached right.

Hope you find what you're looking for, and let us know what you do find (positive or negative).

[Phlebas]

I do kali/escrima. The plus sides are immediate weapon training- even their empty-hands stuff is weapon based, and it all feeds together. Strongest benefits are for ambidextrous coordination- if you're interested in two weapon fighting, it's hard to beat. Downside is the range is closer than Belegarth, and a lot of the material is for phase 2 and 3 of a combat exchage- disarms and finishes after the initial hit, which is not so useful. Ray Dionaldo is based in Florida, if he's where you are it'd definitely be worth checking out. Guy is extremely impressive with any weapon.

Aikido has a lot of useful material for two-handed and some pole stuff, but most dojos you'd only see it once a month or so, so it's hard to get the grasp on it you'd want in any kind of reasonable time frame.

Saber sport fencing can teach some very strong distance and tactical decision-making. if you're put in a beginner foil class, though, you're likely to be disheartened, because foil is sort of... abstract.

[Soo Ma Tai]

*, I am at work right now, but aas a MA practicioner of over 20+ years, I have some input here that some of you may find applicable. I will post later on this thread.

[Mint]

Tai Chi might be too soft a martial art for what you're looking for, and finding someone to teach the sword aspect specifically is nigh-impossible, but it teaches balance beautifully, a style of movement that can be very effective for us, and power generation from the core, all right from the very basics.

I've been studying Tai Chi for about 6 months or so, and it's helped my fighting immensely. It really helps you think about the physics behind fighting as well.

[Teej]

Wow I have a lot to reply to, lol. To keep it simple:

Kali/Escrima: Gonna check out that Ray Dionaldo guy, a lot of stick-fighting arts in my area are garage-ran. Worries me a bit about the quality of training I'd get, but at the same time - I could also get paired with a good teacher and get some GREAT one on one training.

Aikido: The only legit dojo practicing traditional martial arts in my area on the outskirts of Orlando. You can almost find a BJJ or Muay Thai place around every corner. They also offer Kendo and Iaido... weapon MAs, but single 2h weapons. Nothing I'd find benefit me locally.

Hapkido: Heavily researched this a while back, none in the area.

TKD: Practiced for 11 years, was my master's right-hand student, lol. He was training me on sword between classes but before I got anywhere I shipped off to bootcamp.

Karate: In the area.... all crap. (contracts, camo belts, daycares)

Tai Chi: Got some in the area, going to check them out.

Capoeira: Could not see myself doing it in a million years, but it sounds like a hell of a workout. I've always seen it as a workout more than a sport though... I'd probably step back, wait for someone to wear themselves out doing all their fancy stuff. I understand the conditioning, balance, and flexibility benefits though.

In short, I was looking for something with near-immediate hands on weapon training; great suggestions though. Got some good info that I can put into my research.

[GvK]

Western martial arts, especially longsword (German and/or Italian focused), also includes pole ax, messer, knife, etc. Lots of fun and readily translatable.

[Soo Ma Tai]

Ok, so you've studied MA for a while, that's awesome. From TKD you've learned very well how to move, etc. At this point you ~need~ something like Escrima...don't do Kali, do Escrima. Fina a Guru (yes that's what escrima masters are called) and check it out. See if they do any kind of sparring (read, padded weapon combat) and ask if you could give it a try. If you are better than them before you start taking classes, don't bother. If they whoop up on you, then you are in good shape. Stick with that guy. You will learn a ton of stuff that won't really be applicable to Bel fighting, but you'll learn some good stuff that will. Tai Chi will help you become a smoother, more graceful fighter. It will also give you some good methods and mental tricks for developing speed and power.

Disclaimer-I am 38, I have been a practicioner of MA for over 20 years. This is the one subject I know the most about. I am Belted in American Kenpo as well as having studied some Shaolin weapons forms, a great deal of Escrima, and a smattering of other stuff.

[The Great Gigsby]

I can't believe nobody's mentioned it yet.

Wing Chun has a weapons component although traditionally, you have to demonstrate an understanding of empty hand technique before you get to pick up weapons. If you've practiced any sort of martial art before, the empty hand stuff is not too hard to grasp. Like any martial art, it'll help with footwork.

Drills with the Butterfly Knives are remarkably similar to Escrima drills (from what I've seen). The pole fighting is really where Wing Chun shines, IMO.

[Yuri]

Cross training is wonderful, but since no one has mentioned the possible downsides yet I will. Remember that many martial arts train you for strikes that are not legal in Bel, most notably head shots. To this day it is difficult for me to use a red well because I spent many years learning Bokken in Aikido and its hard to break the muscle memory.

Another similar problem is rules confusion. The rules of sparing in MMA vs Ampt rules vs Bel can either lead you to doing a lot of illegal stuff or cause you to limit your options, like missing grapple opportunities because you've been doing Ampt to much or throwing a knee at someone cause you've been doing a lot of MMA.

I'm not saying don't cross train, its one of the best ways to advance, just be conscious of side effects. If you keep the differences in mind and refresh yourself on the rules difference before you take the field each time you should be okay.

[Isk]

Teej, just wanted to pass along something else we tried tonight. A local instructor of Haidong Gumdo invited our whole realm over for a free class and we had a great time. Honestly, I don't know how much of the actual sword technique would translate well to bel (you'd telegraph like crazy if you always did it the way they show you), but the conditioning and the footwork could be interesting and useful. For straight weapons stuff that augments bel fighting, escrima and kali still seem like your best options, but Haidong Gumdo starts you right off with a sword in hand and has some interesting stuff to offer.