Belegarth

Hello everybody !

Thanks to youtube, I discovered your training and learning videos.

Seeing that apparently, you like to train with foam swords at least as much as we do, that you pratice with an impressively high skill level, i venture to contact you to get better acquainted et in the hope to exchange ideas and advices.

I come from a little country that’s names Belgium. We had the chance to meet Englishmen ten years ago, that trained intensively too.
Following Mark Gilbert’s idea, we organized courses to promote battle with foam waepons, and improve sécurity and quality in LARP battles.

I leave you the address of our website so you can have a look on what we do : http://www.riddleofsteel.be

Since a few months, we are trying to regroup on a facebook group all the weapon masters who like to discuss and exchange ideas.

If there is someones who want to join us : https://www.facebook.com/#!/groups/162447310470738/

We try to speak in english so you are welcome


I hope to talk to you soon

Sofiane.

Ps: Yes, it's the same post that I wright on another forum, that's because my english isn't very good ... :p

Welcome to Belegarth! We're always happy to talk to other foam fighters.

Hey, here a new video to show you what we do! :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L19hPlnf0Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BAot0OGaHU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... T72iznFseQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfa1UY4z ... ture=g-all

Feel free to comment ! :p

Rude things

* Arrakis way to be a ball buster buddy lol.

He's right though Rayzen. I would have probably worded it differently but that aside he is correct. As for exchanging of ideas I am almost always for it. There are lots of things I could list to make your game better and safer. I'm going to check out your facebook link. Who knows maybe I can help some how half the world away.

First, thanks for your post. I'm glad that some of you have interest for what I've post here. (We made those videos because a lot of "you" ask to see ^^)
But, maybe I don't understand well but your post seems very aggressive to me... O.O
Again, I never said I, or we, are the best foam fighters, I never said that what we do should be what the entire world have to do or anything else.
Again, I'm here to share, to discuss and exchange ideas, discover other visions and meet new foam fighters.

So, to answer now :
I can understand that what we do is not what you do, I can understand that you don't like what we do. But please, be respectfully and try not to judge something just because it's different. To me there is a lot of common points and a lot of differences between us. To me, it's cool because we can talk about. :-)

1) Yes, we do not care about realism. In our vision (and again I'm not saying that the best vision or what), it's a difference between foam fighting and Medieval fight. If we want to fight like in reality, we would join a medieval company (no so sure how you can historical re enactment groups).
That's explain why for us, we don't need to put a lot of strength in our attacks. If we touch, we count it, because I'm a human who lives in 2011, I'm not trying to be a warrior of old times. I'm a player, I'm doing sport, and yes, a fighting sport as fencing.
If you think there is no fundamentals, mechanics, and all of that in fencing, sir, i invite you to try it for a little while :-)

2)The main difference I see, is that you are doing a full contact sport, whereas for us it's a "no contact" one. We hit only with weapons, again, like fencing.
BUT it's a difference, to me, there is no one who are better than the other.
When I was younger, I've been boxing. I assume that you'll agree with me when I say that's a true fighting sport. When I was on the ring, I fought to beat my opponent. I don't have the same mindset when I fight with foam weapon.
If I want to hurt, win, beat my opponent, I won't use foam weapon. ^^

3)Our people have been Larping in many countries including france, UK (larp of 4000people), Germany(larp of 9000 people), Belgium (1500 people) and Canada (larp of 2000people)...
No Major event? But we've been to Bicoline in Canada, the Gathering in the UK and Conquest of Mythodea in Germany.

I hop you also had the occasion to play abroad Arrakis.

I would appreciate if you could stop the comparison with German warrior or guys of chess club, you and I are smarter than that and could do better.

I really had no interest in changing minds, huh? Just being abrasive for it's own sake

Truthtown.

Remy the Wroth wrote:Truthtown.

There is a very very very big difference between "your truth" , "my truth" and The truth.

Please Arrakis, Remy come to the larp fighting group (if you are not already in). I think, there our conversations can be more respectfull and open minded. I really think that we have a lot of things to learn from each other.

When i read (and maybe misunderstand) there is a lot of "non-sense" to me with your explanations.
1) You say we have only basics things, fundamentals things and all... But, you don't count your hands, your foots and your head. I think it's more difficult to fight when you fights with more localization to protect.

2) You say it's because you fight like in a real fight, but all of those localization are not available. In real life, if you loose only 1 finger you can not fight anymore...

3) You say that when you fight, you sacrifice your leg to hit the chest. In rules you maybe win, but honnestly i don't think that the best way to improve yourself/your tehcnics. And i'm not talking about realism... I m pretty sure that the good way is to touch/hit without being touched/hitted. I maybe wrong, but that my idea.

4) Again about your propre words, in real life, the best warlord were the guys who had a lot of tactics, strategy, etc... That's proved by history.

So if i resume, the only thing that is more difficult in your type of fighting is about strengh. But it's subjective so you have the choice to tell: it's not strengh enough, to count it, when for us, all count in every locazlisation. Do you really think that our version is so much easier/lighter than yours?

I'm really tired about this way of talking. I don't want to know who had the bigger tail... I'm truelly here with a positive and interesting mindset.
I'm from the country of beer, let me promise you one if one day you come here!

Rayzen,

Arrakis is not a nice guy on the boards. Lots of people here are not nice and will be aggressive. Obviously, this is a group that places a high value on speed, technique, stamina, and agility. We play a rough sport, and that is how we like it. However, there are still people here that value other things as well, such as medieval culture, art, history, and community. You do not have to defend yourself to the "bad guys." You can ignore them. You did a cool thing contacting people who do similar activities abroad, and you are right that we are all part of the same family of people who like these activities. Don't be bothered by what the "bad guys" say. Thank you for showing us what you do; I am sure a lot of us are envious as to how big some of the European LARPs are. We often share pictures of Bicoline because the event looks so wonderful. We also try to look medieval when we play and we appreciate nice looking costumes. Have fun here (and fighting in Belgium), and don't get worried about the internet "trolls."

Best,
Anastasia

PS: I am sure you can see cultural differences here. We have a culture of being aggressive on the internet and for acting tough, but many of these people would be very fun to meet in person. Maybe someday we will make it out to Belgium to have a beer (this group likes beer ).

Rayzen wrote:I'm really tired about this way of talking. I don't want to know who had the bigger tail... I'm truelly here with a positive and interesting mindset.
I'm from the country of beer, let me promise you one if one day you come here!

Rayzen, welcome to these forums. Please ignore Arrakis. He overrates his own importance.

For whatever second-hand, anecdotal evidence is worth, I recently met an Englishman who moved to London, Canada (the city with the most proximate Bel group to me). He has had many years of EuroLARPing under his belt, and, based on his array of weapons that he showed us, and his general technique (very close to what I see in these videos) he was pretty involved in his old hobby.

He was not prepared for the physicality of our combat. Stuff like shield checking, hard hitting, heavier weapons, and the presence of the sufficient force rule were pretty foreign to him. He had a great time, but it was definitely a different experience for him.

So, we really, really don't mean any offense by what we say here; we're just speaking from our experience.

Man the prospect of drinking a beer in Belgium. To drink a Lindiman's Lambic (Framboise is the best, next to Peche of course) or even a Weihenstephan over there would be awesome.

Rayzen, I watched the videos you posted, and what you have works great for your game. What I think Remy and Arrakis are meaning to say is that most of what you guys do will not transfer over to Belegarth if you were to try it, but just because we hit hard does not mean we cannot or don't pull shots; meaning remove the power and give a light hit.

Covering points:
1) We do not count hands because they are a very easy target and full contact shots to the hands can break bones. Feet are harder to hit, but its almost the same thing as the hands. The no hands is for safety, and hands and feet combined is for playability. No head contact is for safety all the way. Serious injury could easily occur if we left the door open to hit the head.
2) True. A shot in real life would most likely result in loss of fingers. But like I said above we are always saying Safety, playability, then realism.
3)I agree but here when it counts to win you can sacrifice a leg to get the win and not feel bad about it. It's better to not get hit in any full contact sport but you will eventually be hit.
4) Yep "The Art of War"

As on the FB group I mentioned that we have a lot of complicated maneuvers that we can preform yet do them full speed and full contact and be very accurate. The largest difference I'm seeing now between the two is first your sport is light fighting ours is heavy. Your weapons are very flexible ours are not. I have played a couple of games similar to yours, and I can say I prefer Belegarth. This is my personal preference though. I would suggest you give our sport a try. We have realms in other EU countries. Denmark being one and Serbia another. Even one in Ireland if memory serves me correctly. Here's a link to the BeleWiki for the Denmark group. http://wiki.belegarth.com/Holmgang

I'm really glad to see more international interest in Belegarth. Whether or not if its just for conversation; I won't lie there is a little side of me that hopes your group would switch but that's unfair and unrealistic. If I had the time, money, and ability I would be headed over to Belgium as soon as possible, but sadly I'm unable to at the moment.

Guys, i'm very very happy to read all of you say!!!!! :-)
Thank you very much!

I promess the best's lindeman's beer to all of you if i come one day in belegarth or you come in belgium !!!

Cu_, do you remember the name of that guy? Maybe i Know him ^^

Kage, and other, yes you all right. We can't transfer ours (yours and ours) technics like they are now in each other's game. We have to try, think, learn.
The basics are to me the same (its sword fighting) but the rules and mindset are not. I'm not trying to say that what we do work more than yours, you do it from 20years lol, so i think what you do, it's probably the best technics to use with those rules, stuff, and way to have fun! :-)

I know his real name is Tony Porteous, character name Bastion FInns; he was at Maelstrom, if you were there.

I was sparring and discussing weapon combat theory, with my friend Rayzen, at a large event in England in August this year. After observing and analysing the way he fights I suggested that his current style was limited and that he should explore other styles and techniques.
Since then he has started a Facebook group, which has an aim to bring people together who have an interest in sword fighting and then allow them to discuss and learn from each other. He has also been searching the internet for other groups that have different styles and approaches.

These are the actions and attitude of a modest, open-minded, creative and bold young fighter, who wants to be the best that he can, to make friends and positively influence others.

I was disappointed, when Rayzen invited me to take part in this thread, to see the immature and closed minded attitude of the likes of Arrakis. It must also be very disappointing for the mature members of Belegarth to see these comments as they will tarnish your organisations reputation to outsiders.

I am sure these negative attitudes are the minority in Belegarth and have already been pleased to see the likes of Skull Crusher and Tiercel responding in a friendlier and more welcoming way, which Rayzen deserves.

I am looking forward to getting more involved in these discussions and hearing even more perspectives on this forum or on the FB Larp Fighting Group that some of you have already joined. (I apologise in advance if it takes me a while to respond in this forum, I currently have a 9 week old in my arms as I type this and another two sick children in the other room, finding time to do anything in recent months has been a challenge.)

Kind regards

Mark

ROS Mark wrote:I was disappointed, when Rayzen invited me to take part in this thread, to see the immature and closed minded attitude of the likes of Arrakis. It must also be very disappointing for the mature members of Belegarth to see these comments as they will tarnish your organisations reputation to outsiders.

Some tap-fighter came into a friend of mine's thread wherein said friend was asking for advice (implicitly: from Belegarth fighters and fighters who are good at the kind of fighting we do) and started slinging around **** like "You hit too hard, quit it" and "Look, tapping is better than hitting".

I said, "Hey man, maybe you should try SCA or another hard-hitting group so you understand what we do a little better" and he responded "No, I understand just fine I'm not trying anything".

His next post in that thread was about how we obviously throw shots with our wrists so we should listen to him. Which, by the by, is factually incorrect.

I watched the videos he posted. It's taplarpery. Which we frown upon here in "we actually hit one another" land.

Oh well. I guess I'm just too immature to appreciate his fine art of ignoring reality and touching people gently with pieces of unpadded fiberglass. I guess I've really tarnished Belegarth's reputation among tap-touchers from LARPs with terrible combat mechanics that we don't care about at all.



My bad, guys.

Sorry you must have misinterpreted my post.

I have no problem with your criticism of the fighting style, I agree with some of it. What I don't agree with is your bad attitude and aggressive communication, especially when someone is approaching a new group in a hope to learn and to make connections with new people.

So are you saying that what Rayzen does is nothing to do with weapon combat?
Have you ever tried what you describe as "taplarpery"?

Regards

Mark

I have done both Tap larp type combat, heavy foam combat, and some hardsuit SCA combat. The main difference between what yuo guys are doing and what we are doing is like this....

TAP LARP type combat is like Martial Arts Tourney point fighting, very light contact, basically showing that I could have hit you, all shots are pulled from full force.

Bel combat is more like Boxing, while still not a street fight, full force and speed are used. Again while not a street fight, it's much closer than Tap combat.

I come from a 30+ year Martial arts background. I mean you no disrespect, but I can say they are very different types of fighting and mindset.

ROS Mark wrote:Sorry you must have misinterpreted my post.

I have no problem with your criticism of the fighting style, I agree with some of it. What I don't agree with is your bad attitude and aggressive communication, especially when someone is approaching a new group in a hope to learn and to make connections with new people.

So are you saying that what Rayzen does is nothing to do with weapon combat?
Have you ever tried what you describe as "taplarpery"?

Regards

Mark

I have. I have been thrown off of a "Realms" LARP field here in CT for hitting too hard and for not taking shots (can't take a shot you can't feel through a sweatshirt, buddy).

I know from direct experience that that style of "medieval recreation" has nothing to do with fighting or combat. I play Amtgard, Belegarth, Dagorhir, and SCA. I have played in other systems, as well, including modified Quest, Realms, and some HACS.

I'm saying that what Rayzen does has no bearing in any substantive way on what we do, to a fighter anywhere past the basic understanding of "hit the other guy with the pointy end".

If he cared about learning things, he would have listened when I told him that trying SCA in his home country would be instructive instead of saying that no, his understanding of my commentary was perfect and that he would not be venturing outside of his chosen game.

In response to Arrakis:

Arrakis wrote:If he cared about learning things, he would have listened when I told him that trying SCA in his home country would be instructive instead of saying that no, his understanding of my commentary was perfect and that he would not be venturing outside of his chosen game.

Sorry can not find anywhere in the other thread where Rayzen said he would not try SCA or would not venture out of his chosen game, correct me if I am wrong.

Arrakis wrote:His next post in that thread was about how we obviously throw shots with our wrists so we should listen to him. Which, by the by, is factually incorrect.

So are you saying you do not use your wrists when you sword fight?

Also, I can find nothing in any of Rayzen's posts where he says that you should listen to him or that he was an expert or that his style was better than your's, please correct me if I am wrong.

You seem to be twisting the meaning of Rayzen's posts a little. He has excellent intentions and is writing in his second language. I think you should modify your approach to use your experience to nurture new fighters and guests to this forum rather than laying into them. Just my opinion.

Regards

Mark

Hello Soo Ma Tai thank you for joining this discussion.

Not all LARP type combat is the same, there are many different styles, which have varying levels of strength of strike and amount of body contact.

I concede that most LARP systems do not take the fighting seriously, but some do.

I also have a good few years Martial Arts experience myself (nearly 25 years) and have experienced a whole range of different sword fighting systems such as LARP, Sport Fencing, SCA, Kendo, Western Martial Arts and Renactment. I have also fought in a number of different countries including England, Belgium, Norway, America and Italy.

I would argue that all of these fighting systems are approximations on what real sword fighting would be like, all of which have there advantages and disadvantages.

I would also propose that they have much more in common than many people seem to suggest and because of these similarities there will always be things to learn from each other.

Regards

Mark

No, we don't throw shots with our wrists. The whole body is used to throw a shot. The wrist is simply the hinge at the end of your arm. It guides the weapon on its course, but all of the power comes from the hips. It's a winding motion, like a wave of power that travels from the foot, up through the hip, through the torso and out the arm, ending at the tip of the sword.

I understand that speaking a second language is difficult enough, but even trying to explain technique to people in our primary language is hard enough. Also yes, Arrakis can be a abrasive personality, but he does have the best intentions in mind. He's not trying to be a jerk, it's just how he talks and explains things. I am not appologising for him, just saying that that's how he is, to everyone, not just new people, or people he doesn't know. Don't be offended, just read it again and see his points, disregard what you feel is disrespectful, and glean the good info that is there.

While I agree that in theory that sword fighting is sword fighting. I also understand that if you try to use sport karate technique in an MMA fight, you are going to get stomped. I think that what Arrakis is trying to get at. While very similar, it is not the same. We fight with Amtgard guys, some of their techniques transfer, some don't, just because of different weapon weights and power requirements.

I agree with all that you say regarding technique, it is best to train with a killing intent, which may well mean a good amount of power (depending on the amount of armour, the location that is struck, the intention of the strike and sharpness of the weapon).

I also use the kinetic linking wave of energy movement, to deliver a range of my technique and to generate my most powerful strikes.

Sounds like we are on the same page.

The disappointing thing is I love to fight as many new people as I can and all of you guys are in America.

ROS Mark wrote:In response to Arrakis:

Arrakis wrote:If he cared about learning things, he would have listened when I told him that trying SCA in his home country would be instructive instead of saying that no, his understanding of my commentary was perfect and that he would not be venturing outside of his chosen game.

Sorry can not find anywhere in the other thread where Rayzen said he would not try SCA or would not venture out of his chosen game, correct me if I am wrong.

Arrakis wrote:His next post in that thread was about how we obviously throw shots with our wrists so we should listen to him. Which, by the by, is factually incorrect.

So are you saying you do not use your wrists when you sword fight?

Also, I can find nothing in any of Rayzen's posts where he says that you should listen to him or that he was an expert or that his style was better than your's, please correct me if I am wrong.

You seem to be twisting the meaning of Rayzen's posts a little. He has excellent intentions and is writing in his second language. I think you should modify your approach to use your experience to nurture new fighters and guests to this forum rather than laying into them. Just my opinion.

Regards

Mark

Responses on the Dag boards to the same guy.

Done with this thread now.

ROS Mark,

Some of us are disappointed in the way some people conduct themselves on the boards. This organization has a culture and a history of aggressiveness online, but I can say many of these guys are cool to meet in person. However, that means you will encounter some "trolls" here. Don't take what they say personally and don't worry them. Of course, there is much more that we have in common than what we have apart. We all love and feel passionately about activities like this and we share an appreciation for medieval/fantasy culture, history, and a sense of belonging in a community. Belgrim will be critical about fighting styles, we care a lot about technique and stamina. Just remember that you don't have to respond to every jerk here, and that you don't have to defend your friends to them. Just interact with the reasonable people and ignore the bad people; there is even a function somewhere that blocks them if they get too obnoxious. It would be very cool if someday we ever get to visit each other.

Best,
Anastasia

Arrakis wrote:Responses on the Dag boards to the same guy.

Done with this thread now.

Euh... Where? O.O

Thank's a lot Mark i really appreciate your support coming from you it's really make me very happy. The same for all the others. :-)

As i see, some of people who ask or give advice won't even try new things or exchange experience. And i'm locked up in a way of thinking? Huh...

So I'm gratefull, i'll meet new people, some of them joined the FB group so we can continue to talk about what we want without aggressivity or making any fight between US and Euro "foam fighters".

I really hope that one day we can meet each other (if some of you want to come in belgium, please let me know), if i can come one day, i'll tell you too. I can't wait to have some sparring with some of you :-)


PS:(And be sure i'll not forget the beer! :p)

Hi Anastasia,

Thank you for your comments.
I know that I do not have to respond to everyone on this forum but I sometimes choose to. I felt it was important to support my friend on this occasion and make a point.

I am always keen on making connections with other groups and strongly believe in promoting positive interactions.

If you are ever in England then you are more than welcome to visit my club.

Kind Regards

Mark

ROS Mark wrote:Hi Anastasia,

Thank you for your comments.
I know that I do not have to respond to everyone on this forum but I sometimes choose to. I felt it was important to support my friend on this occasion and make a point.

I am always keen on making connections with other groups and strongly believe in promoting positive interactions.

If you are ever in England then you are more than welcome to visit my club.

Kind Regards

Mark

I will be in England for about 2 weeks this coming May. I'll keep you posted on the facebook page.

Hi Osric,

If you are over in May you are welcome to visit. I live directly south of London, about 35 minutes drive from Gatwick airport.
I run my club Tuesday evening, but can get some people together and organise a fight at other times.

Regards

Mark

If the date are ok, why not coe together to Warbands Belgium?

If it's possible I'd like to. But it's a couple months away so we'll have to see what the money situation looks like as the date draws near.

Arf!!! I'm wrong, Warbands is in march ... Not may

We organize a larp fighting week-end in april, from 27-29.

If there is some people who want's to travel the world to come fight against the ludicrously larp fighters, let me please offer you some free entrance, and some wonderfull belgian beer. :-)

Arrakis wrote:Looks like every other ludicrously under-padded tap-LARP I've ever seen.

Light, unrealistic combat with severely underweight over-flexible weapons; lots of "attacks" that are just flicks with the wrist and involve no mechanics, goofy tricks and no fundamentals...

Honestly, you guys look like my local university's LARP club of people who've never been to an event and think that their tiny little pool of never-been-to-a-major-event math club and chess club folks is the coolest, best fighting group there is, despite playing a tiny local LARP with no contact with the outside world of fighting sports.

Arrakis....**** YOU!
You just made all of Belegarth look like the egotistical, **** sticks, that i **** hate.....
You made my **** list once.....Now you are on it forever...Good job *.

MeleeMoses wrote:Arrakis....**** YOU!
You just made all of Belegarth look like the egotistical, **** sticks, that i **** hate.....
You made my **** list once.....Now you are on it forever...Good job *.

That's fair lol

Rayzen, I have a group of friends who go to bicolline and fight with a group there. I hope to go with them sometime to try it out. It looks like a lot of fun.

Hi again everyone ^^

Just to try to motivate some of you to cross the see next year!
If anyone can join us, i'll be glad to be your host.

Here you have a video of the stage :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cncuaKOxTA4

Arrakis wrote:

MeleeMoses wrote:

Arrakis wrote:Looks like every other ludicrously under-padded tap-LARP I've ever seen.

Light, unrealistic combat with severely underweight over-flexible weapons; lots of "attacks" that are just flicks with the wrist and involve no mechanics, goofy tricks and no fundamentals...

Honestly, you guys look like my local university's LARP club of people who've never been to an event and think that their tiny little pool of never-been-to-a-major-event math club and chess club folks is the coolest, best fighting group there is, despite playing a tiny local LARP with no contact with the outside world of fighting sports.

Arrakis....**** YOU!
You just made all of Belegarth look like the egotistical, **** sticks, that i **** hate.....
You made my **** list once.....Now you are on it forever...Good job *.

Do you have a problem with me, MeleeMoses? Have I ever met you?

Doesn't matter, he's still right.

A month and change later, thanks for that.

timing is everything, duh dane.

Speaking of timing, how long was this thread dead for?

Peanut of Loderia wrote:Speaking of timing, how long was this thread dead for?

In the case of Dane's post; since Cinco de Mayo.

Hello everyone! :-) (again :p)

I have a friend who come in NY in september or october. Any of you are from this city ? Then you can meet him and bring him to your training^^

Let me know !

Thanks

I'm in Connecticut.

If he can take the train up to New Haven, I can pick him up there and probably put together two or three people to hit each other.

Finally, after two years "we" meet each other.

Quentin, a friend of mine, is in NY at the moment and he meet some foam fighters. He fought with your weapons, your shield, your rules.

The great point is : the debat about the "strenght hit" versus "only touch" is now over... It seems that our weapons hit really harder than the boffers. The boffer's weight is almost the same as our weapons.

Finally, we will have less problem to "fight together" than we thought.

As Quentin said : " All in all it s very similar "

Here the fight! : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IdOYfEm7lo

I'm glad to tell you that and i'm hoping that one day we will have fun all together.