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 Post subject: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:56 am 
Slayer
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So, I'm getting back into fighting after a hiatus of a year and a half or so (during which I have mostly been playing a ton of rugby), and while I'm still a pretty good fighter, rustiness notwithstanding, I'm running into a problem I personally haven't had to deal with before but I imagine many of you have.

The new group I'm fighting with here in Florida has one other vet, Deakon, who's originally from Eryndor and fights the way you would expect someone from Eryndor would fight, and quite well at that. The other 20 or so fighters who come to practice, however, are new fighters with at most 1 year of experience, and many of them typify the "newbie-fu" style of fighting, namely, being very wild with their attacks, throwing shield bashes at bizarre times, backhacking more than they fight straight-up, and generally being confusing to fight against after several years fighting against mostly other veterans with more refined and consistent technique. The result is that I am getting killed a lot more than I should, by basically random techniques from inexperienced fighters, part of which I know comes from diminished battlefield awareness, especially against backhackers (the offsides rule in rugby means you don't have to worry about people behind you), but part of which I am convinced is a product of the generally unpredictable and haphazard way in which a lot of these new fighters play.

So my question is twofold: 1, what approach, in terms of mindset, techniques, what have you, should I use to beat them in a manner consistent with my actual skill level as I understand it, without slipping into bad habits (a lot of the stuff in my old "advanced" sword and shield vid, for example), and 2, how can I best help these new fighters, particularly those who have good natural talent but are relying almost exclusively on it, to learn good technique?

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sun Jan 15, 2012 1:29 pm 
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I know EXACTLY where you're coming from. This is the sort of problem I had about 2-3 years ago. I had taken about year and a half hiatus and suffered the same problems. When it comes to newb-fu, just get back to the basics and assume that you're always about to get back stabbed. Just stick to basic shots and footwork to get started. Just simply waiting out their initial flurry of blows and landing whatever shot presented itself tended to work wonders for me. After they learned that I could just out last them they would approach with more caution and start to try and think the fight through. Which of course would then give me my opening to be the aggressor rather than the other way around. If somebody is fighting wild and crazy, always take the defensive approach over the aggressive approach. Because sometimes, they just get lucky.

As for helping out the guys who show some promise, take them aside 1v1 every chance you get. Like during a water break if one of them is sparring, man up after you get water and 1v1 with them or try and get them isolated during a fight. Give them pointers on what they can improve on. If I'm dead next to a guy who's trying to up his game, I'll break down fights as they're happening with him. Just little things like that. Answer all the questions you can that are put your way. That's all the advice I have.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Mon Jan 16, 2012 8:26 am 
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Fight single blue offhand.

It will hone your skills, make you work for your kills and not squash the new kids into the ground as badly. Though egos take a hit to "I died to him 20 times and hes fighting offhand single weapon and im full up" do happen. I have found this to be the best way to push myself and to make sure I am using the best of my abilities and not allowing myself to slack vs new fighters/low end fighters.

It gets your range control back into play, your footwork where it needs to be and who doesn't need more offhand work?

As for the noobie foo, just know they don't fient, that slow shot that is no way going for your leg. Yeah its actually as fast as they can throw at your leg. Dont step back assume its a fient step back in and then get hit and just chump yourself.


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Tue Jan 17, 2012 10:32 pm 
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If they're doing something you don't understand, just step back.

For all of their wild, random techniques, they've all got a pattern and a go-to attack/combination. Learn it, counter it viciously. You'll beat the bad habits out of them.

Also, come in hot with your offense. Freeze them once, they'll be slow to get creative on you in the future. Kill them fast and they'll want to know / try to emulate what you did.

If they're checking you at odd times, check them back. Sometimes, you don't have to win to beat out bad habits. If they're spinning, just set your guard firmly at your hip and then gut them. If they're jumping, patiently turn to keep them in front of you, and give them a shove just as they land.

You'll get used to the backhackers again. When you get the eyes in the back of your head, they'll stop coming at your back.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Wed Jan 18, 2012 11:49 pm 
Brute
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The "How to train New Fighters" guide, by Bard

Here's how I train our new people, and take this with a grain of salt as I'm just regurgitating what I see on the Internet, and I'm nowhere near a great swordfighter, but enough of a step up from newbies to give them these tips:

These are also with single blue sword. It's the simplest way to teach someone the absolute basics without complicating it.

1. A fighter is built from the Ground up. Teach them stance first, how to move their feet, how to dodge leg shots, keep their feet light and not planted. This prevents them from ducking to block leg shots with their shield (and avoiding getting whacked in the head a lot), leaning down (to reach for a low sword block and also getting whacked in the head yet again), and gets their head out of a danger area where their head is near shields, knees, and other harmful objects on the battlefield. Heads should be at head level, not arm, shield and sword level.

2. Moving on from that, show them how to block from the hips. Throw some shots at them and let them fly out their block way beyond their body (most newbies try to slash at your sword with theirs to block. Silly movies they've been watching.) Show them how their blocks create openings. Then give them a tighter block and throw shots at it. They'll see that they don't even have to move to block shots. Then have them rotate their hips into the blocks to block a wider range of shots. This also prevents leaning into blocks, blocking low, etc, etc. (And getting their heads in the "Danger Zone")

3. Once they can be mobile and block. I have them punch me in the arm. This is to show them how to throw a proper shot. Most newbies just swing the sword around like a conductors baton, making circles in the air that don't have any power. After they punch me, I show them how to hold the sword and "punch" out with it to make a percussive shot. This prevents some head shots from "baton waving" and wild swinging, and starts them down the path to good fighting habits.

This all takes about 15 minutes, but you're heading off a good deal of safety issues, both for the fighter, and for the rest of your realm.

(Also, note that this is a guide for helping complete first time newbies, not for training super awesome fighters)


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 10:36 am 
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MagnusofDregoth wrote:
So, I'm getting back into fighting after a hiatus of a year and a half or so (during which I have mostly been playing a ton of rugby), and while I'm still a pretty good fighter, rustiness notwithstanding, I'm running into a problem I personally haven't had to deal with before but I imagine many of you have.

The new group I'm fighting with here in Florida has one other vet, Deakon, who's originally from Eryndor and fights the way you would expect someone from Eryndor would fight, and quite well at that. The other 20 or so fighters who come to practice, however, are new fighters with at most 1 year of experience, and many of them typify the "newbie-fu" style of fighting, namely, being very wild with their attacks, throwing shield bashes at bizarre times, backhacking more than they fight straight-up, and generally being confusing to fight against after several years fighting against mostly other veterans with more refined and consistent technique. The result is that I am getting killed a lot more than I should, by basically random techniques from inexperienced fighters, part of which I know comes from diminished battlefield awareness, especially against backhackers (the offsides rule in rugby means you don't have to worry about people behind you), but part of which I am convinced is a product of the generally unpredictable and haphazard way in which a lot of these new fighters play.

So my question is twofold: 1, what approach, in terms of mindset, techniques, what have you, should I use to beat them in a manner consistent with my actual skill level as I understand it, without slipping into bad habits (a lot of the stuff in my old "advanced" sword and shield vid, for example), and 2, how can I best help these new fighters, particularly those who have good natural talent but are relying almost exclusively on it, to learn good technique?



Magnus, you know where I play and with what caliber fighter, so you know I know where you're coming from.

My best advice is to adopt a super-technical wall defense. Lock your **** down so tight no one can ever get a shot through and then play the safe kill game: outside flat wraps and pocket stabs and shoulder picks and the like. Safe stuff.

Against flailing newbs, just go sword-foot forward with a solid A-frame/pyramid type guard with your right hand in strong outside denial. I'm sure they're never stabbing you, so don't even worry about that, but do keep in mind that you need to be ready to sweep gutstabs out of the way in a fight against a vet.

So, mostly what Dane said, elaborated.

Plus, what Varadin said. Don't try to fake anyone open; they can't see it. You just get killed. Aggressive shield work if you ever need to crack a tough nut.


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Jan 19, 2012 12:46 pm 
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Don't forget there is no "Dying more than I should be." I'm a fighter with 10 years XP, but new people can still kill me. That doesn't mean they are better fighters than me. Keep fighting them as much as you can, suggest a lot of re-gen battles. If you are the fighter you think you are, you will figure out their tricks faster than they can get yours.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Wed Jan 25, 2012 1:49 pm 
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Bump for usefulness. I'm about to start fighting again Sunday after knee injuries and such have kept me out since almost byz opener last year. Great advice, I was kind of worrying a bit about this for this sunday.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 2:30 am 
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How I fight new people: Tight defense, and hitting them in the leg. New people dont get the concept of offense and defense at near the same time. If theyre being defensive they go total defense; if theyre being offensive their is coming at you and their shield is nowhere near their body. So track the shot coming in, dodge/block, riposte to lead leg. They cant be jumpy around all nimbly bimbly on a knee.


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2012 7:58 pm 
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Looking past the obvious things, like lack of training and restraint, I've found that the best way of approaching newbies is like any other fighter. Find out their habits, and pay attention to how they are standing/moving/holding their weapon in order to discern what they are going to try to do. You can acclimate to a newbie just like you can a more experienced fighter, it can just take a little longer, as they are still developing, and most likely sloppy.

I actually get a lot of practice drawing fighters into predictable situations when i'm fighting less experienced fighters; then again, a lot of them haven't even learned to examine when someone is leaving an opening, so them's the breaks. Baiting the leg works pretty well, though, as they do love them some overextended, pop their shields in front of their own faces and swing blindly at your leg kinda shots.

Honestly, I like having some newer people on the field, because it gives me a chance to try and improve them... My philosophy has always been "Improve those around me so that I have to work harder to beat them." It doesn't work for a lot of newbies, because some of them just get their jollies out of sneaking behind people all day and hardly ever challenging themselves, but every once and a while you find those fighters that really want to get better, and helping them do that is a reward in an of itself. A lot of that comes from offering suggestions, telling them how you are beating them when you beat them, taking them to events to attend classes and fight/ learn from a myriad of high level fighters, and expressing regularly that if they ever want to spar or have a question that you are there to help them. Oh, and let them know when they are doing well, that's a big one.

As for the obligatory backstabbing newb... I'm guessing when you try to fight them head on they tend to avoid confrontation, right(least that's how they work around here.)? Try steering them into other groups of fighters, so they can do the work for you. It doesn't work all of the time, but it can be good practice when it comes to working on a larger field, and using your group to push other groups around.

Honestly, most of this stuff, you already know; I've watched your tutorial videos in the past(particularly the "Fighting lefties" vids as I am a lefty), and they were rather helpful to me, especially when I was still trying to find out how things worked early on. I'm sure it doesn't hurt to be reminded, though. Good luck on getting back into fighting again! I'm sure Florida will be much better off for it!

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 3:18 am 
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I also took a break for about the same amount of time recently, so thanks for posting this. This thread is gold.

I started a separate sparring night with 3 of the fighters in my realm. One is about the same level as me, and the other two are fun challenges. I tell them to bring specific things they want to work out to the sparring session, and we work on technique there without the distractions of the larger field or all the fighters. So realm practice becomes putting theory to practice in big battles. They'll catch up and pass me in no time.

Vek

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Wed Feb 01, 2012 9:09 pm 
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depending on what type of newb you are dealing with i offer this.

brand new newbs, like weeks old. just hit them in what is open. usually a shoulder drop, cross, or inside lane.

once they have learned to block these, they hit level 2 newb. basic defence os fairly tight. leg hunt for a while, then fake leg, shield drops, and shoulder time. also a good time to get some step right hip wraps.

once they start to stop this, you get to have more fun. double leg, cross to hip wrap, short cross to inside lane. pocket stabs, hip stabs and other such fake and go type moves. remember at this stage they react, so make sure you make them react in a way you expect. i often will test fighters a few fights to see what they bite on and what they ignore. then once i have it set, bam i win 95%.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 02, 2012 10:47 pm 
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Thanks for all the advice.

I had a really **** afternoon of fighting yesterday. Not sure what it was--bad lighting, bad weather, starting to feel sick, frustrating day of classes, whatever--but not only was I not fighting well, I was not having any fun at all. It's clearly just my ego talking, but I feel like there is no way I should be losing to guys who literally had never picked up a sword before 2012, and more than that, I was getting headshotted, headshotting others (my stabs under the shield going straight up into people's chins, my pocket stabs ending up in people's eyes, flat snaps thrown by my opponents right into my cheek, etc.).

My focus is off, my attitude is bad, and I think I am just not being aggressive enough. Or I'm being too *, not realizing that I'm not the fighter I was two years ago because I have done barely any fighting since 2010.

In summary, I should have gone to Vanderbilt so I could fight in Dur-Demarion :roll: But in all seriousness, something has to change or I'm just going to end up quitting again, maybe for good.

EDIT You know what, I'm just going to take a video camera out from the library and record myself fighting, for your critiques. This is basically the only place I trust to give good feedback, since the Dag boards fighting section is full of turds and no one on the Armour Archive gives a **** about foam weapons.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:37 am 
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dude, start fighting southpaw, for serious. It'll put you on the same footing as all the rest, but you'll be able to teach yourself the basics all over again but this time without developing bad habits. I don't have time to go into how amazing and important is is to be able to fight with both hands rather than relying on a single one so I'll just reiterate.
Southpaw newb>rusty old right-handed vet

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 10:42 am 
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Quote:
since the Dag boards fighting section is full of turds and no one on the Armour Archive gives a **** about foam weapons.

No, axes are good.

We're ready for video, brah.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Fri Feb 03, 2012 8:17 pm 
Slayer
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Probably gonna be a week from tomorrow at the earliest, since I have rugby tomorrow.

I could post a video of me playing rugby but I don't think that would help.

Also I need to put my centergrip back into my shield. It ripped out last week. I still have the straps (which are installed the way Spyn suggested) but I like to have options.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sat Feb 04, 2012 2:57 am 
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I'm on board with the video as well. I'd like to see the mistakes you make so that I can shore up that same mistakes that I make. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2012 11:20 pm 
Slayer
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Well, I don't have any fighting video yet but here's a thing a teammate of mine (in red and white) did:

http://youtu.be/FWe3nqvo3cg?t=8m39s

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2012 11:16 pm 
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HOKAY SO here are the first few videos. Please offer your suggestions and critiques!

I got a little bit of footage at practice today, two sword and shield and one with two-stick. To be honest, I don't think I come off looking very good. I cross too much, I throw weird stuff that I don't think has ever worked, and my footwork doesn't look (and didn't feel) very good.

SWORD AND SHIELD vs ARKIS

http://youtu.be/rDjtioW27Go

Arkis has been fighting for about a year. He's one of the n00bs I mentioned, who beats me more than I would expect a 1-year fighter would. He has talent, he has a pretty tight defense, and he bothered to build his sword with a stabbing tip. I won most of these fights because he has a limited range of offensive techniques, but it was hard for me to open him up with my offense.

SWORD AND SHIELD vs DEAKON

http://youtu.be/xCl6vG0n2I8

Deakon is an 8- or 9-year vet, so he has about as much experience as I do. He did most of his fighting in a much more competitive and larger realm (Eryndor) than I did before we each came to Tallahassee. He's fast, he has a good eye for targets, and he moves in a way that is difficult for me to predict. He won at least 50% of these fights, maybe more like 60%. His speedbat has no stabbing tip (I don't know why, he knows how to make them just fine). One of the fights, my weapon gets caught in the little cut-out part of his shield; another fight I think I land a slot shot through the same cut-out.

TWO STICK vs ARKIS (sword and shield)

http://youtu.be/7FuMDuveoi4

I beat him maybe 75% of the fights, but I did some stupid **** that I'd love some advice on closing down. Mostly, he kept hitting me in the thigh while I took his sword arm and shield arm in quick succession. But I still don't consider myself a good two-stick fighter, not by a long shot.

....

On the plus side, I seem to have taught a new fighter some good fundamentals a little bit after we did these vids. With luck, he'll be coming back to practice.

It's weird, I know a lot of this stuff intellectually, and can explain it effectively, but I just don't have the muscle memory I used to.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 5:03 am 
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Hmm... It seems to me that in the first video, you are letting him control the range most of these fights. He's using a smaller sword, which makes his effective range shorter, but gives him an advantage when he manages to get all up in your grill. A lot of newer fighters tend to get to that stage where they find out that a good amount of their opponents will die if they run in haphazardly, slam them with their shield, swing like mad, and hope for the best.

This guy is a little more solid than most newbies, but I would warn him that resorting to that tactic every time won't help him grow as a fighter. You have to pick the right time to close in on an opponent. The good thing is that he seems to actually take the time to listen when you guys give him advice; lots of newbies won't even do that much.

That said. He does have a solid defense when he's squaring up, but as you point out to him in the two stick vid, he tends to open up his shield side hip to punishment when he drives in. You can take advantage of this by pump faking with your left hand, but keeping your guard solid to bait out his shoulder or hip, while still blocking that thigh shot. Have you tried to see how much that shield of his wanders? I get the feeling that while his defense is solid while static, it might open up pretty easily with the right suggestions. Maybe also try faking to shield side, stepping toward sword side, and swinging sword side as well? It's a shot I throw against other leftys(Dogboy from Amt taught it to me), so It follows that it might work pretty well righty vs righty.

Cool combos aside, though, this guy seems to have one direction; forward. I would say throw in some horizontal movement to limit his shot selection. controlling range and angles against him will work wonders, IMO.

As for Deakon. He's considerably more developed than the first... He seems to like that shield side hip swing that passes over and comes back as a sword side hip swing. Bait him into it and take advantage(possibly by stepping forward and swinging for his sheild side hip, I noticed he tend to overcompensate the block to protect his swinging sword arm and make a slot for his weapon to return.). I noticed your footwork is a heck of a lot better when you are facing him, as compared to Arkis. Still, though, he is a longer ranged fighter. Wait for an opening, get into a range he isn't comfortable with, and take advantage of it? Easier said than done, but he does seem to leave some openings you can move in during.

That's all I've got for now. Obligatory comment about how I'm not the best fighter in the world so I'm fine with being corrected if I say something stupid, and I hope this has helped you in any small way!

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:27 am 
Warning: Knows Math
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Vid 1: You are kind of just standing there and letting him run in on you, like a bullfighter. When his shield rides up and forward as he makes contact, deep wrap shieldside. Instant win. Do that until he gets sick of it and tries something else. Also, you both kind of have foamfighter bend; stand up! Also, it seems like you aren't playing the low game enough; a 2x3' shield isn't enough to cut off his legs and hips, especially when he moves his shield around so much. At 1:10 you drop your shield out of position during your lead. Do a little pell work to get your muscles back to remembering how to stay fully in locked-down defense mode during an opener and get your returns right; you're just leaving your sword out there for too long on a lot of these shots. Your sword guard is floating higher and higher, too. Check out where it ends up at around 1:49! Keep it low, trust the top of your sword, and don't go over the top so much.

Arkis is getting a lot of crosses on you specifically because your own sword is way up in the stratosphere trying to threaten a cross on him and he isn't taking the threat seriously, either because he doesn't know he has to or isn't seeing it or because he's confident in his speed.

You need to a) take control of the initiative of the fight. Whether you desire the initiative of acting or the initiative of waiting is up to you, but, especially against a newer fighter with poorer reading skills, it may benefit you to take over the fight early and obviously. Make him wait for you; make him worry about being able to catch your opener. And swing hard. Make him not really want to get hit by you at all. Then, find his openings (pocket stab, hip wrap, short cross to hip stab) and teach him to fear your stabs, especially. Now, you can start using feints. Win forever.

PS: Whomever just told you that shield kicks must be with the flat of your foot is wrong and should be told he is wrong early and often. Especially if that's the same guy talking about swinging more with the wrist. Where's this guy even from?


Vid 2: Less than twenty seconds in, you're blocking ALL of his tappy backhanded no-mechanics, from the tip-toes, off-balance sword-side flicks with your SHIELD. Bring your sword down out of I Desire The High Cross territory and block those onside with your sword. Likewise, throw some fakes. That guy might take them. Then again, he might not... He reminds me of a certain class of Dagorhir fighter who is very fast and very good at one particular very limited style of fighting. Speaking of which, start failing that ugly douche-stick abortion he's trying to hit you with. Insufficient haft padding is an excellent excuse to fail any given Dagorhir weapon, as the rule on the books for hat padding is very strict.

Let's see... more blocking the sword side with your shield, more crossing, more no-faking... You're fighting down to his level, playing long-range leg-shot-to-high-cross tag. He's always gonna beat you if you play his game. Close and wrap, cut off the outside lanes and shut him down, get him to move his shield around, edge him. Get up to a major Bel or Amt event and hit some good fighters to remember what you're supposed to do.

Oh: Stop accepting those darksides he's throwing. It's apparent from video that he's literally just flicking his arm at you. If it's hitting hard enough, it's because your calibration has fallen and/or that **** hits too hard to pass.

You have yet to throw a return from your forward blocking position; you keep hauling your stick back to shoulder plane before throwing. Either you're hitting these guys SUPER hard (which does not appear to be the case) or you're ignoring your hip mechanics and either way its causing your shots to telegraph HARD. You just, at 1:48 or so, blocked on onside with your sword, yanked your sword way back and blocked the next on to the same side with your shield edge (opening you to destruction on your shield side I might add) and then threw a whiff because your return was now out of time and telegraphed.

Ah! At 2:14 you appear to have blocked a shot to your sword side with your sword and riposted in quick time for the arm! This is what you should do always.

And if that guy keeps walking in and throwing the ankle snipe, either get your front leg clear when you see him start it or be ready to just arm-time his leg shot.

Just saw this at 2:38, because of the new angle: If he insists on bringing his shield way across to cover the expected counter to everything he does, the high cross (again, this is a very limited style), same-side hip chop all day everyday. He goes to throw one of those limpy darksides and throws his shield over his right shoulder; flat wraps or chops to that sword hip = wins. Also, when he lets you get in close before doing it, Shield edge meets his shield at mid-face, which means his shield meets his face! How lovely.



Vid 3:

First fight you start off too close to him. Maintain range. He's just going to do the old punch-shield-rush-muddle and try to tangle your sticks enough to prevent solid shots. Hand-match, shut him down on his sword side, bait the cross, if he rushes instead, righty wrap.

Don't open with shield-side shots, by the by, unless you have a good reason to do so. And for the love of Glob, cover your left hip consistently. He's just waiting until you do something silly with your left hand and then hip chopping you at 0:56. What's that scoop stab thing aiming at, anyway? Whatever it is, it's out of range. Step in by circling a bit or crescent stepping and throw a pump fake or something, maybe a stutter, and see what happens. But keep your D TIGHT unless you've got a guaranteed kill.

You seem to be opening by just throwing a shot that you know he'll block on his shield, as his body is too far out for you to be aiming at that. If you're gonna do that, make it a safer shot for you, one easier to get back into guard from, and don't over-balance yourself forward when you throw it, so you can retreat or move laterally if/when this guy rushes you. Also, where's your outside hip pump fake, inside lane gutharpoon at? That's that bomb ****! Throw it! Make him make The Noise!

Oh! If you're trying to snipe his wrist with some of those openers, throw a flat wrap instead of that chop. It should get that forearm OR make him pull over enough for a right flat wrap to the hip or shoulder.

RE: Losing the leg to get the arm, I think his slower timing is messing you up; wait for his shot to connect before you return. It's not really a return if it's earlier than his shot lol.


Hope that wall of text helps!


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 8:53 am 
Hero
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SWORD AND SHIELD vs ARKIS
You do cross a lot, but that habit can be unlearned. Try faking the cross and throwing a shield side wrap. When he's up in your face like that just throw a good shield side hip wrap or high wrap instead. I also agree that Arkis is controlling the range too much. Try circling around him and throwing a chop, wrap or stab when he closes. He has to get real close to hit you so play to that range.

SWORD AND SHIELD vs DEAKON
Deakon relies on that high cross as a go to shot so block it and counter. If you know it's coming more often then not, you can react appropriately. It looks like one way you die a lot is to a darkside while you're throwing some type of cross. Again wait for it, block and counter. Puck is right about him overcompensating the blocks, take advantage of that. He likes fighting at range because of his size and reach so grind up on him and take him out of the comfort zone, especially since he barely has striking surface on that club. Make him regret it.
In both videos it looks like that low hung strapped shield is new for you and you're not 100% comfortable with it yet. I don't have advice, that's just an observation.

TWO STICK vs ARKIS (sword and shield)
Bring your right hand down a little bit for a more stable guard. In that same note use your left hand to block that thigh shot he always hits you with. Watch the first video(http://belegarth.com/media.php?link=instructional) where PtQ explains putting your elbow on your hip to block. He explains it better then I could. Continuing that train of thought, attack more with your left! Gut stabs and hip wraps are crucial. It kind of seems you lead with your right then attack with your left. Try the other way around. The best piece of noob florentine advice I've heard is to start using your right hand as defense only and attacking with the left as much as possible. You'll feel like a retard for a while until you get some muscle memory down.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:22 am 
Grunt
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When dealing with a field of noobs. Expect them to accidentally work like the serenity 4 horseman team. 3 stay together and Colister runs like a mad man to get behind you.
Guage the speed of the backhacker and keep him at bay by turning and looking him back as though you were a short stop, holding a runner on base (this may , at times, require you to take a couple of threatening steps toward him). Use shadows to identify backhackers, also look at the people in front of you, they will relax slightly before you are backhacked. Turn shield side with a mid wrap at the ready, step sword side while turning if the backhacker is coming fast, deliver your shot and charge the right side of their line with a swordblock at the ready. Then leg 'em and leave 'em.

We train 1 on 1 so often we forget about group tactics. You are a smart guy so figure out what swings will be taken based on false openings you plan to give them making their attacks predictable. You must exaggerate these openings more than you would when fighting a top tier fighter. Figure out what they will do when you come in and have a plan that has both defense and attack. When you do it right, there is no feeling quite like it, Treat flanking noobs as you would treat archers, except arrows are backhackers.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:32 am 
Slayer
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Arrakis wrote:
1. PS: Whomever just told you that shield kicks must be with the flat of your foot is wrong and should be told he is wrong early and often. Especially if that's the same guy talking about swinging more with the wrist. Where's this guy even from?

....

2. He reminds me of a certain class of Dagorhir fighter who is very fast and very good at one particular very limited style of fighting. Speaking of which, start failing that ugly douche-stick abortion he's trying to hit you with. Insufficient haft padding is an excellent excuse to fail any given Dagorhir weapon, as the rule on the books for haft padding is very strict.

3. Let's see... more blocking the sword side with your shield, more crossing, more no-faking... You're fighting down to his level, playing long-range leg-shot-to-high-cross tag. He's always gonna beat you if you play his game. Close and wrap, cut off the outside lanes and shut him down, get him to move his shield around, edge him. Get up to a major Bel or Amt event and hit some good fighters to remember what you're supposed to do.

4. Oh: Stop accepting those darksides he's throwing. It's apparent from video that he's literally just flicking his arm at you. If it's hitting hard enough, it's because your calibration has fallen and/or that **** hits too hard to pass.

....

Hope that wall of text helps!


Thanks brah, I knew you'd be there for me.

Let me address these points I've quoted first, to make sure everyone knows what's going on here:

1 - That's Deakon saying both things; he's the guy I'm fighting in 2nd video. He's from Eryndor, and fought there from 2003 on.

2 - I'm not really in a position to be failing weapons, as I'm not all that involved in the group as of yet. I do agree, but Deakon is a great guy and a good leader who gets people involved, I like him personally, and I don't want to get on him about this right now while we're still trying to get the group up to the right level for attending events. (Deakon, if you're reading this--I think your weapons are fine personally, but you need stab tips!)

3 - Honestly, the first few times I got out to fight here I did better against him. I feel like I've gotten worse from that time, maybe, as you say, "sinking" to his level. He is very fast, and I don't have the same instinct/anticipation that I used to two years or so ago. When I see the video afterwards, I think all the same things you're saying, but it just doesn't arise when I'm fighting. Now I KNOW I have to go to Ides so I will have the opportunity to fight more skilled fighter and get back on the horse. So to speak.

4 - Yeah, I am trying to bring the standards up to the "substantial" level of hits here, but it's hard. Everyone keeps taking near-misses from me as hits. That's the Eryndor mindset - feel it, take it - again. Some people play the game that way. Funnily enough, Rayzen (the Belgian guy everyone here yelled at rudely) had this to say:

Quote:
For Deakon, he is a very good fighter, and god bless him, he gives me right for a lot of '****' things I said on belegarth and arakis and the gang told me :"ludicrously tap larp", "we don't do wrist attacks", "we use sooooooo much heavy weapon" .... So if i can ask, say thank you to deakon for me ^^


Or, to parse his 2nd-language English..."Thanks, Deakon, for demonstrating that Dagorhir is indeed a tap-fighting game with light weapons!" :roll:

Final point - in the fights where I'm two-sword, I won almost every round, as I did in the first two-sword fight against the new guy. It's hard to tell from the angles and some of the deaths weren't done all the way through. Not to try to defend my lame fighting, though, I know I need to improve. I also need to get vids of me using my 32-34" weighted flatblades; I don't think this omniblade thing is going to help me develop very well.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:44 am 
Slayer
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Solusar wrote:
SWORD AND SHIELD vs ARKIS

In both videos it looks like that low hung strapped shield is new for you and you're not 100% comfortable with it yet. I don't have advice, that's just an observation.



This is also 100% true. Maybe it's not visible, but the grip ripped out of the middle of my shield last week, and I thought "well, let's just get used to the strap for a while" rather than gorilla glue it in again.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:31 pm 
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Dane wrote:
More left-handed single blue is needed.

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Last edited by Remdawg Killionaire on Thu Feb 09, 2012 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:10 pm 
Warrior
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board, Single Blue
Here's something gleaned from 40 seconds of video.

Opponent rushes --> you * your arm for high cross and drag shield to opposite armpit. It's no wonder that you're not opening him up. You're dying to newbie fu because you're countering newbie fu with newbie fu.

More later when I give the vids the attention necessary.

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it's not the weight of the weapon that makes for a solid hit, it's how much i don't like you when i'm swinging.

If they don't take it, then it wasn't sufficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:53 pm 
Veteran
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First off tell deacon to read the rule books, that boy knows better. also like arrakis said Fail that weapon and give him a normal bat, He could use some work with a shorter weapon.

As for you,

In all these fights you are letting them set the tempo. On the first guy you are trying to knock him off speed a bit with a shoulder chop but you arent commiting vs deacon you are just almost always in his range he is just bad at stepping.

Your weight almost always seems forward, this costs you your leg in a few cases vs deacon.

Work the centerline and stop leaning sideways, you are reaching for crosses and getting way far out of your guard. Your weight gets shifted and you clamp your feet together. take a step off the center line and punish them.

I know you stated that your shield is new to that strapping, no better time then now to learn to EDGE PEOPLE in the gut with it. Your shield hardly moves for the first two videos, get up there and gut punch someone.

fight 3... STOP DUCK WALKING

Wathcing these at work and kinda back and forth sorry if this doesn't make sense.

Overall you have no energy to your fighting. Its not like you are storing it up for an explosive attack every so often you are just kinda.... there and kinda fighting. Wheres that latino passion... ohh right you are really really white...


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:41 pm 
Warrior
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board, Single Blue
First video, breakdown of Magnus's offense:

Fight 1: Shoulder pop, high cross, bad stab, high cross, lazy finish
2: High cross, high cross
3: Dead to high cross
4: High cross
5: Shoulder pop, high cross, high cross, dead to high cross
6: shoulder pop, hip chop (while back pedaling and taking a leg, desperation, no credit)
7: shoulder pop, high cross
8: dead to hip chop
9: Spin with no set up, high cross, but dead on spin to hip chop
10: high cross
11: Kick-->wrap, bad wrap, offside leg he should have killed you for, high cross, hit extended leg
12: shoulder pop, high cross, high cross, bad stab, high cross
13: you got legged, took death
14: shoulder pop, high cross, high cross
15: drop stab

32 shots. 16 high crosses, 6 shoulder pops (1 was almost a short cross), a bad spin shot, 3 stabs (1 decent), no good wraps. I'm not saying to never use the high cross, but it's not a shot you should be using 50 percent of the time. Every time he closes, you reach for the sky just waiting for the high cross.

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Graavish wrote:
it's not the weight of the weapon that makes for a solid hit, it's how much i don't like you when i'm swinging.

If they don't take it, then it wasn't sufficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:02 pm 
Warrior
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board, Single Blue
Video 2 (v. Deakon)

1: Shoulder pop, high cross, high cross, shoulder pop, leg, high cross, high cross, dead to wrap
2: shoulder pop, high cross, shoulder pop, high cross, high cross, dead to high cross
3: Wrap (poor set up), high cross, dead to dark side
4: shoulder pop, stab (decent), high cross, high cross, high cross, chop (hit), hack, hack (hit)
5: darkside (stuffed), slot (hit), chop (hit)
6: Shoulder pop, high cross, leg (hit), short cross (sort of), high cross, chop (hit)
7: wrap, high cross, high cross, shoulder pop, high cross, dead to darkside

36 shots. 16 high crosses, 7 shoulder pops, 1 decent wrap, 1 decent stab. You didn't hit him with a single high cross. Successful shots were straight chops and hacks and a slot shot. You died to a wrap, a high cross, a dark side (and these aren't even good dark sides), and a dark side. Every fight that used basic slots and chops, you won. Your sword blocking is nonexistent.

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Graavish wrote:
it's not the weight of the weapon that makes for a solid hit, it's how much i don't like you when i'm swinging.

If they don't take it, then it wasn't sufficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:30 pm 
Warrior
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Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and Board, Single Blue
Video 3 (2-stick)

1: Shoulder pop (L), Wrap (R), Hack (L, fouled up), high cross (R), hack (L)
2: Hack (L), Wrap (R)
3: Chop (R), Chop (L), dead to arm, leg
4: Bad wrap (L), Feint (L), Wrap (R), Block (L)
5: Hack (L), Wrap (R)
6: Wrap (R)
7: Wrap (R)
8: Fouled up (L), Wrap (R)
9: Chop (L), Chop/incidental block (L), Wrap (R), hack (L, leg)
10: Hack (L), Wrap (R), Hack (L), Hack (R)
11: Hack (L) (arm taken), Hack (R), Doom loop cross (R), slot (R), dead to hack to left side
12: Hack (L), Hack (R)

Maybe I got lazy, but it looks like you win 10 of 12. Of those, you win 8 with your right hand, 2 with your left. That should be reversed. Also, in 12 fights, you intentionally block about 2 shots. In most of those fights, instead of selling out for the wrap and accepting the leg shot, you could have either posted the block with your left and chopped to his arm with your right, or you could turned your shoulders, made the block low with your right, and swung in with your left. You do a lot of throwing two shots together and leaving yourself no defense, ergo your getting hit. There are a couple fights where you just wrap while your left hand sits there like a vacant idiot, and you get hit. More left-handed single blue is needed.

In two-sword, your matched hand does the lion's share of the killing. Your off-hand should be covering for the matched hand and only occasionally going for the kill. Your defense is wide open; a good fighter would harpoon you. You're trying to take away the cross with your right hand, but the cross is what you want them to throw. It's an easy block with a body turn, and it opens up their sword side, the easy kill. Sell out your defense to your sword side and see how it changes the fight.

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Graavish wrote:
it's not the weight of the weapon that makes for a solid hit, it's how much i don't like you when i'm swinging.

If they don't take it, then it wasn't sufficient.


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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 12:12 am 
Gladiator
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alot of people have broken down some of the obvious things i saw so i'm going to talk about the less obvious things.

I'm not going to really talk much about your fights with Arkis, he is very unpredictable and you fall into old habits, high crossing. you should be fighting him single sword, handmatching and controlling your range a little better. I'm glad to see the low strap shield, how do you like it? the two sword video is painfull to watch, I'll meet up with you sometime and help you out with two sword or i'll hit you up with a different channel, you should, also come to SKBC and take my two sword class.

now fighting deakon, first off all of spyns "no no's" are true, your feet are too far apart your guard is too high and you cross to much.

deakon controls the fight with his feet, you let him control the fight because your legs are so far apart you can barely take a 6inch step. bring your feet closer together and allow yourself to move. your weapon guard starts off ok in some fights but your hand just raises and raises as the fights progress, keep it home. stop jumping around, leaving the ground removes your ability to change direction and makes you predictable. you resort to powering over and around his shield when you should be using studders, body fakes, and feints to get your shots in. you also never bait him into anything, your guard is very neutral deny either your inside or outside lane, pick a lane and control it. you are also very much (as other people have pointed out) all arm, you don't have much of a shot mechanic. use your legs, hips and torso to give you shot power, i think alot of this has to do with your feet, relearn how to step and then you can learn how to swing.

so recap, bring your feet closer together, stop jumping, work on you swing mechanic, stop moving your shield so much and use your weapon block, use your 4 guards, pick a lane and control it.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 8:46 am 
Gladiator
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Snipe the leg, Johnny.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Fri Feb 10, 2012 1:40 pm 
Slayer
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Thanks for your comments, guys. It's really frustrating to watch the footage, because I see a lot of the points you're making on my own, and I want to shout at myself doing stupid stuff I don't want to see myself doing.

The point about the feet being too wide is a good one, and one I hadn't noticed on my own.

To be honest, I think a video of me doing single-sword would look a lot better since I can isolate my technique that way. I do a lot of lefty single blue these days during practice, as well as righty, and it's helping me get back on the horse (so to speak).

PtQ, I'd love to come to SKBC but I don't think I can make it out to New Mexico--grad school has put significant restrictions on my time and money. I'll watch some of Spyn's and your videos, though, and practice regularly (though rugby still has priority). The low-strap shield is a big change for me, I have to admit; I was used to my angle-strap heater (which I couldn't bring here to Florida as the shape was too awkward) and my center-grip. I think I need to make it a bit bigger, as it's just under 26" right now and 28" might be a little better.

I'll get some footage this weekend and try to put some of all your suggestions into effect. Maybe the 36" omniblade isn't the thing for me--at least I have plenty of swords too.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sat Feb 11, 2012 11:37 pm 
Slayer
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New videos from today:

Here's me fighting Deakon - if anything I look worse. I move my shield a lot (a LOT) including blocking shots that it's clear my sword will stop. Here I try to close more, and I think it works somewhat, but I still throw a bunch of high crosses and can't seem to get hip wraps, or any wraps, in against him. Not that I'm really trying.

http://youtu.be/sZgKXTF95Po

I think I win 40% of these fights, maybe less.

That weird barrel roll I do when I'm on my knees and Deakon has no shield, by the way, has about a 90% success rate including literally every fighter against whom I've used it over the past five years. Better with a punch shield, but, still, I plan to keep doing it until it stops working.

And here's me fighting someone else, a guy called Smitty. He has a similar gear loadout to me--low-strap round shield and sword--but is, frankly, not very good yet. Nice guy, though.

http://youtu.be/reDXi9AeEE4

This one makes me look a little better. Maybe because he doesn't throw as many quick flick attacks as Deakon, I don't get distracted or start to panic, and I don't do as much stupid ****. I think I win about 80% of these fights.

And in response to Todo's comment,

I can definitely hit legs easily when doing sword and shield. I don't like to, because I want to be focusing on developing my attacks against the arms and body (which are more effective killing moves) but maybe I should get back into it just because it gives me a huge footwork and range advantage. Thoughts?

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:02 am 
Forum Gordon Ramsay
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Remy the Wroth wrote:
Dane wrote:
More left-handed single blue is needed.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:22 am 
Warrior
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Quote:
Here's me fighting Deakon - if anything I look worse.

No, you look a lot better. You're still high crossing (and crossing in general) way too often, but you worked in some short crosses and chops to the arm and onside midsection, which did a much better job of countering his high crosses and crappy dark sides. You landed a hip wrap, which is good.

Your feet are still drifting too far apart. You don't work side to side very well; when you do get moving, it's usually running to the left or right. You should better utilize closing lunges that move you off center, and start planning for a second foot movement for after you "get there."

You're right that your shield is moving too much. It's because your guard drifts higher and higher the longer the fight goes on. Reset your fist to navel height, and adjust upward (but not too upward) for taller opponents.

Against Smitty, you look pretty bad. You start out okay, but then you fall into a lot of bad habits (hint: high cross, high cross, high cross, shoulder pop, high cross). You land some pocket stabs, which is good, but your form on them is meh. You keep kicking that back leg up, but you're not really putting your body into the stab or lunging. A good fighter that knows how to brush stabs will make you pay for "arming" it in. When that back leg kicks up, it should be because you're lunging or stepping forward to drive the stab. You're also starting the fights way too close to him. Your closing footwork, offense, and defense are pretty weak, so you should make it a point to start the fight outside of range.

You're arming your offside hip wraps. That shot should start in the bottom of your feet and flow all the way through your arm. Hip motion is like a tennis backhand, and your elbow is the last big breaking point in the whip. You should stutter them to your right and/or high (footwork fake that makes them think you're going high and/or to your right; a little step forward and to your right will accomplish this, a little bounce on the toes). Then you move left, throwing as you do. You want to be near the end of your range when the shot connects to eliminate some of the dangerous counters, and your movement to your left will further protect you if you stuttered them properly (they were reacting to your fake to your right).

Closing tips:

Deakon loves him that high cross, and it quite obviously makes you scared to throw for fear of being arm timed. Lunge in, and do one of three things:

1: Throw the short cross stiff into his sword guard. Done right, it should freeze him and prevent the arm-time counter. From there, find a new opening, or make one yourself. For added flavor, and if he's not the sort to get bent out of shape about rough play, after you stick that short cross, throw a left hook with your shield and get you a nice, violent bind. Something will be open, and you can hit it.

2: Lunge in, and as you do, just angle the tip of your sword toward his sword shoulder. This feint sells either short cross or pocket stab, which will most likely freeze him (free shot) or bait out his arm counter, which you then block and return with a short cross/stab/whatever looks good and open.

3: Close to your right. It's really hard to high cross somebody moving away from the hand throwing it, and that step to your right gives you a nice angle on the shield and hip wraps when they're recovering from the shot.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 4:32 am 
Gladiator
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MagnusofDregoth wrote:
And in response to Todo's comment,

I can definitely hit legs easily when doing sword and shield. I don't like to, because I want to be focusing on developing my attacks against the arms and body (which are more effective killing moves) but maybe I should get back into it just because it gives me a huge footwork and range advantage. Thoughts?


I use a stupid huge sword for sword and board and rely on range and footwork to control fights, it's not the worst way you could go.

My response was formed entirely from watching your first video with Arkis, in which I saw you getting rushed down and killed by a guy with not much form or thought to defense, especially in the legs. Seemed to me like you were winning the fights when you could get your spacing down. Snipe his leg, and you get that spacing every time- and you get the added bonus of having the threat of a legshot in the back of his mind. I like to hit people with the same shot, over and over, Pavlov style, until I can start a 50/50 mixup where I can feint high/low and they're not sure I'm going to carry through with the shot or not. Works very well to help keep your distance and prevent people from wanting to close it.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 10:50 am 
Slayer
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Remy the Wroth wrote:
Remy the Wroth wrote:
Dane wrote:
More left-handed single blue is needed.


The first hour of yesterday, I did only lefty single blue in every game we ran, by the way.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Sun Feb 12, 2012 1:42 pm 
Forum Gordon Ramsay
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Good man.
I did southpaw single blue for about a year.
It helped me in everything from my abysmal footwork, my right-side sword-blocking, my flo, I finally got the kinks out of my wraps (having to relearn to throw with my left helped a lot!) helped with my range control, helped with my aggressiveness, helped with my developing second/third/fourth intention ala fencing/chess.
It even helped with my red sword technique.
It'll be frustrating, for the first six months probably. Stick with it and you'll see increases in skill you never would've imagined.
I'm actually thinking about going back to single on an every-other practice basis.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 10:04 am 
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ok, so here are my ideas, some are repeated but i will offer some ideas to practice that others have left out.

when fighting arkis, you need to stalk him down. i wouldnt even bother throwing a shot until you can walk towards him and not get hit. used the sword hand off the right hip gaurd, dont let it drift up no matter how many crosses he throws. use your feet to keep your legs out of his reach. continue to stalk him down until he is so very out of position he has to spin out to reset, then attack him with a wrap, high or low.

i know you wont win any fights with that advice, but you will learn to keep your god * feet on the ground, your sword where it should be and how to cut off the fight.

next up, high cross, it looks so terrible i cant begin. everytime you high cross, do 30 push ups. that should cure it, and as a bonus you will get strong again. the game is won with chops, short cross( thrown as a jab), slots, and wraps. high cross should be 5% of your shots at the most, and only if you are setting it up with footwork and shield work. '

your balance is bad, real bad. watch you try and high cross whilst jumping and leaning to get higher. please stop that. you need to have a rope between your feet, 18" would be a good lenght. sure you might fall over, but it would be better to fall than to have you in a full lunge and unable to move in a and out properly.

in the end remember you are new again, why train bad habits trying to win fights, when you should lose them all and learn to do what will help you the most long term.

good luck, hope you can make wpo.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Mon Feb 13, 2012 8:55 pm 
Slayer
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Thanks Bo, I really appreciate it. Not gonna lie, I tell people the same stuff, I just don't actually do it myself much though I tell myself to.

With luck, going to Ides and fighting as many people as I can there will give me a leg up out of this hole I've dug myself.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Tue Feb 14, 2012 12:33 pm 
Warrior
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Bo wrote:
in the end remember you are new again, why train bad habits trying to win fights, when you should lose them all and learn to do what will help you the most long term.

Fundamentals, baby.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 5:56 pm 
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You've got probably the four best eastern people you could possibly have helping you in Bo, Dane, Arrakis and PTQ, but I'm going to offer one more philosophy style point. I also throw more crosses than I probably should, but in my my experience people don't get hit with a high cross unless they know you can kill them on the shield side. If they don't KNOW that, and I mean deep inside, then they will cheat the cross all day long, and give away the wrap. I saw Arkis and Deakon both do this during the fights, because they know you're just trying to kill them with crosses. You bring a many wrap to the table, one that that stands up and says "ello there kidneys" and they'll stop cheating the cross and you'll land more of them. But you won't have to. Because your wrap will be epic.


Also, leg hits are just as important as arm hits. They count the same way to the death total and if you're doing it right then you should be able to control the distance even more, and you'll be able to set up the wraps, short crosses, and shoulder pics more effectively.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 8:20 pm 
Slayer
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Hey, new videos from tonight. I've been trying to put the advice here into effect. Let me know what you think.

Here's me fighting Arkis again, going lefty single sword. We did this for about half an hour, and this is the tail end of it, I think.

http://youtu.be/K58Lb8qsrNk

My own timing is kind of off--I successfully open him up several times, but don't take advantage of it. It's less an issue with my right hand, since I'm a righty, but I think getting back into serious work on my left hand should make the problem go away. I also have too long a stance here a few times, but I think I'm doing an okay job of blocking without shrinking or backing up, which was always my biggest issue.

Here's me fighting him two-sword against sword and shield:

http://youtu.be/8IYHdM5U6Lk

It's kind of dark (the sword and shield vid is too dark to post), but I think I look noticeably better here. Most of the hits are sword side (lefty vs righty, righty vs lefty) as far as I remember, though he does get me with stuff that I hope won't land when I've got my defense tightened up. I start out doing one-hit, but for some reason switch to full-damage (which was a bad idea as my knee is still messed up from rugby). The sword I was using in my left hand is also my best-handling weapon, which may have helped.

Also, it's really cool that Arkis is switching his hands off without any prompting from me. He should get to be a pretty good fighter.

EDIT

Par, are you saying that I should look for the leg shot? I'd been pretty rigidly moving away from leg-sniping before I took my last leave, but I can still hit legs with ease when I want to. It's more a question of wanting to go for the kill shot (or the arm shot, which is kind of the same, at least in sword and shield) rather than the easy shot, but if the consensus is that legs are a good target--ranging difficulties aside--I may just resume that pattern. I don't want to settle into something I know I can do well, though, I'm working to get back some of the skills I had really only just developed before I took time off, and progress from there.

EDIT

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Wed Feb 15, 2012 11:15 pm 
Underling
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I'm not an advanced fighter by far but something I've noticed is that you don't make use of shield kicks/bashes much in these videos. Also, whenever I single blue, I try to use my free hand for grappling and manipulation of my opponents weapon. I'm wondering if this is something you don't like to do, or are you just working on the more technical aspects of your fighting?

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 3:12 am 
Warrior
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Glad to see you doing some lefty single.

Generally, in fighting, "it's cold outside." This means that going outside a lot is going to get you killed. I think you threw one (1) inside shot with your left hand and three with your right (one was a garbagey spin thing). The rest were little pecks and chops at his arm on the outside. Any average-to-good fighter with a foundation in single blue is going to tear you apart. You need to start working the inside - slots, short cross to the chest - along with the footwork that's going to put you into position to aggress and defend yourself.

He's got hips; you should try to hit him in them.

If you need to stand up on a foot to get the range on a target, then you're not in range. The good fighter will block your reaching shot and close you down (because you're standing on one foot).

You "arm" all of your blocks with either hand. Proper form is small turns of the shoulders and hips. The arm moves when it has to. Think about boxers when they're covering up: they don't reach out and swat punches away. They turn their hips so they can keep their hands in their "box" (shoulders to hips) so they can return fire with strength.

On that note, your guard consistently drifts up. You get hip chopped a couple times not because Arkis fakes you out, but because your arm just keeps floating.

I like that you got your left hand involved in the two-sword. Now your right hand looks lost and lonely. Bring it over to cover for your left hand, which is doing all of the hard work. You'll feel vulnerable at first ("But what if he crosses me?"), but the cross isn't a hard block, and if he's crossing, that means your left gets a free shot with no retaliation.

Footwork
You need to do more with less. You look really uncomfortable closing from distance. I appreciate that you were sometimes spacing yourself farther away from your opponent to work on this. You have a tendency to align your feet under your shoulders before actually moving to the spot you want to get to. Square feet = a dead Magnus. You're taking several small steps where a normal step with hesitation will do; you're overselling the footfake, and you end up just shuffling in place.

Tip: Instead of shuffle-shuffling to your right, then trying to lunge left, stutter straight ahead, leaning to your right, and then lunge left.

Your lunges are weak and don't cover much ground. You really need to project yourself, and keep those shoulders over those hips when you do.

On Legs
Legs are often easy to take, and for some of us, a legged opponent is a dead opponent. It's easy to kill a guy when you're allowed to move and he isn't. However, unless you suck at killing legged guys, you should refrain from hitting legs in your sparring-for-improvement. Learning to take arms and kill safely will make you both a better duelist and linefighter, as extending for legs comes with its own risks (so you're going to guard both your left and right sides with just a shield, huh?). We get two hands to use gear; if you take away one of those hands, that's typically 50 percent or more of someone's ability. Taking legs is usually for big battles and tournaments, depending on your opponent's gear and skill level. Keep it out of your sparring; you're fighting to improve, not for W:L ratio.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 7:11 am 
Slayer
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Dane wrote:
Glad to see you doing some lefty single.
Any average-to-good fighter with a foundation in single blue is going to tear you apart. You need to start working the inside - slots, short cross to the chest - along with the footwork that's going to put you into position to aggress and defend yourself.


But right here is the problem. I've been getting worse because there really aren't any average-to-good fighters with a foundation in anything against whom I can fight, hence this thread. The only other experienced fighter--Deakon--isn't really interested in sparring except the one time last week, which means almost all of my sparring (usually practice 2x a week) is against new guys. I watched the Rogue + Arc training videos the other day, and it's pretty obvious to me that if I were fighting more technical and experienced fighters, all of these bad habits or weird things I'm doing would melt away quickly because they would become obvious to me immediately.

But that's what Ides of March is for!

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 10:28 am 
Forum Gordon Ramsay
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One thing I noticed is when going southpaw you lead with you're leading goofy. Are you more comfortable with your right leg forward, when you fight regular? I tend to use Brennon's opening/closing techniques; I'll start how I want to finish, usually right leg forward with southpaw, vice verse when switched to regular. I'll step in, bait/feint/block/shoot on my passing step, then I'll step in again again with my right, closing the distance to close range, generally.
Since I'm always mirroring my opponent what happens a lot is that they'll throw to my outside or sometimes stab or cross; all easily countered. Usually they wrap which is awesome because stepping in close with my right foot turns my hip away from the shot, effectively making the gate close if you will.
I got consistently punished on my left-hip until I learned to utilize my footwork; this lead to some dramatic increases in my W:L ratio. I'm still a little slow at this, but I've been getting good at doing this. I watch Bhakdar use this all the time to, it's pretty cool how well this simple idea translates into wins for people.
Keep at it; as I said it's gonna be frustrating for a while, but it's totes worth learning this the right way. Just be patient.

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Overall I believe the article was positive for our image, loosely defining us as a sadomasochist anti-larp. I'm ok with that. http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/LARP-harder

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But, his sensei passed that style down to him! Literal hours of tradition!


Last edited by Remdawg Killionaire on Thu Feb 16, 2012 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Defeating Newbie-Fu and other considerations
PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2012 11:16 am 
Hero
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To go off what Dane was saying about your flo fighting, work some shield side pumps and fakes to open his center line up a little more to attack with your left. Even if he doesn't fall for it and chops off your right arm you can still waste him with your left leaving you armed but victorious. You know how sometimes you'll punch with your shield to open them up for a wrap shot? Do the same when fighting flo except on opposite sides. Have you read Brennon's article on learning to fight with your off hand?
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Q1dVKpzGNazNoNTDuOZJ80Py5weXRJqSmsgAInv_yR0/edit?authkey=CM6hm9YI

It should help, if not blow your mind.

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