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Would you join a belegarth guild were they to be created?
Yes 78%  78%  [ 93 ]
No 22%  22%  [ 26 ]
Total votes : 119
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 Post subject: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:17 am 
Hero
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So far we have a base system for three different guilds. The requirements as currently written. Absolutely nothing about this is set in stone, and some changes have been suggested but not yet made. Feel free to make or suggest any changes you see fit.

Weapon Smithing Guild (Rank System Suggestions based on previous model)

Tier 1 - Initiate
Rank 1 - Say you want in, get a Guild Sponsor of rank 3 or higher
Rank 2 - Attend four smithing sessions, keep Sponsor
Rank 3 - Complete 9 weapons which pass for 3 different types. At least two must be swords. No arrows. Four rocks count as one weapon (max. 1)

Tier 2 - Weaponsmith Apprentice
Rank 4 - Pass test on the rules that govern Class 1 and Class 2 weapons, must be administered by a guild member of at least 6th Rank, Sponsor 2 guild initiates. Demonstrate knowledge of weapon repair and reblade techniques. Attain a simple magority from local guild members in a vote.
Rank 5 - Complete two shields of different shapes. One shield may be coreless. Build six passing arrows. Local Guild Vote
Rank 6 - Assist in four instruction sessions, Make three weapons for new fighters or for community * (not necesarry to pay for materials out of pocket) Trainer Tasks, Local Guild Vote

Tier 3 - Expert Weaponsmith
Rank 7 - Pass test on all rules governing weapons and shields. Take on a pupil of at least 3rd Rank or less, Multi-realm (at least 2) Guild Vote, simple majority.
Rank 8 - Lead three instruction sessions, serve in at least four weapons checks at multi-realm events, Local Guild Officer, Multi-realm Guild Vote
Rank 9 - Pass Tests, assist four pupils in attaining rank 6+, Multi-realm Guild Vote

Tier 4 - Master Weaponsmith
Rank 10 - Serve as National Guild Officer, National Guild Vote, Exemplary Achievements

Cooking Guild


Tier 1 - Initiate
Rank 1 - Say you want in, get a Guild Sponsor of rank 3 or higher
Rank 2 - Assist any Cook in the preperation of three meals. keep Sponsor
Rank 3 - Cook a meal for at least 5 realm members at any realm event or special gathering, keep Sponsor

Tier 2 - Cook
Rank 4 - Pass test showing knowledge of gas, charcoal and open fire cooking and the challenges and advantages of both. Find Trainer of at least 6th Rank, Local Guild Vote
Rank 5 - Assist any Chef in the creation of a meal which includes both main course and two side dishes, Local Guild Vote
Rank 6 - At an event, cook a meal for a unit or realm. Assist in feast preperation at a national event. Local Guild Vote

Tier 3 - Chef
Rank 7 - Take responsibility as head cook for any national even feast, this includes menu planning, foodstuffs aqquisition, cooking and serving. Tasks may be delegated, but candidate must take an active role in all of them. Find pupil of at least 3rd Rank, Multi-realm Guild Vote
Rank 8 - Cook breakfast lunch and dinner for a group of at least 10 people, 4 terms as Local Guild Officer, Multi-realm Guild Vote
Rank 9 - Graduate 3 pupils to rank 6+, Multi-realm Guild Vote

Tier 4 - Master Chef
Rank 10 - 1 terms a National Guild Officer, National Guild Vote, Exemplary Achievements


Armourer's Guild (two path system)

Tier 1 - Initiate Chain Smith
Rank 1 - Express interest; find a sponsor
Rank 2 - Learn European 4-in-1 repair techniques; Learn Chain mail BoW requirements; sponsor
Rank 3 - Learn E4i1 (Euro 4-in-1) speed-weaving techniques; Learn strengths and weaknesses of _meta_ls, gauges, and inner diameters; sponsor

Tier 2 - Apprentice Chain Smith
Rank 4 - Construct (alone) at least 3 square feet of E4i1; Pass test on BoW requirements; local realm vote
Rank 5 - Learn new weaves: Euro 8-in-2 (kingsmail), Euro 6-in-1, Boxweave (knights-chain); make at least half a square foot of each weave (foot length for Boxweave); local realm vote
Rank 6 - Construct (alone) one sleeveless hauberk, you may have rope made by lower ranked members for the sake of speed weaving; local guild vote

Tier 3 - Expert Chain Smith
Rank 7 - Successfully teach E4i1 (weaving and repair); Learn angled seems and either add sleeves to the hauberk made for rank 6, or craft a new hauberk with sleeves constructed in this manor; multi-realm vote
Rank 8 - Successfully teach E8i2, E6i1, and Boxweave; Learn methods of expansion and construct (alone) either a coif or mantle using this technique; multi-realm vote
Rank 9 - Demonstrate knowledge of at least 3 advanced weaves or techniques not previously required for advancement; Demonstrate knowledge of compositing chain to leather or plate in a save and durable manor; Check armor at at least 2 national events (3 day events may be substituted for one national event, but only once); serve as local guild officer, multi-realm vote.

or

Tier 1 - Initiate Leatherworker
Rank 1 - Ask to join, get a Guild Sponsor of at least rank 3
Rank 2 - Attend 1 instruction sessions, keep Sponsor
Rank 3 - Demonstrate armoring ability by creating a simple piece of armor which passes an armor check (i.e. bracers or greaves). Simple armor can be substituted for more complex piece. Keep Sponsor

Tier 2 - Leatherworker Apprentice
Rank 4 - Pass test on rules governing leather armor checks. Test must be administered by guild member of at least 6th Rank. Show knowledge of pattern creation and repair skills for leather armor. Local Guild Vote (Simple majority).
Rank 5 - Create complex armor which includes at least two of the following: straps, articulation, shaped leather, leather tooling (more options might need to be added here). Local Guild Vote.
Rank 6 - Assist in two instruction sessions. Physically assist at least one person in the creation of armor (advice offered via the internet does not count). Local Guild Vote

Tier 3 - Guild Expert Armorer
Rank 7 - Pass test on rules governing armor checks and function of armor in combat. Find pupil of at least 3rd Rank. Demonstrate the ability to construct passing leather or brigandine armor Multi-realm (at least 2) Guild Vote.
Rank 8 - Lead one or more instruction sessions, check armor for at least two national events, Multi-realm Guild Vote
Rank 9 - Complete custom armor that covers at least 2/3 of each combat area (including a helm), assist four guild members in attaining rank 6, Multi-realm Guild Vote

Tier 4 - Master Armor Smith
Rank 10 - 1 term as National Guild Officer, National Guild Vote, Exemplary Achievements

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:10 pm 
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Rowan thank you for transferring all of this information over. If something like this goes into effect non-combatants will have things they can be easily recognized for and fighters can have constant goals to work towards if they want to. I think that this could really help to stimulate participation in the national community.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:51 pm 
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Mekoot Gorlock wrote:
Rowan thank you for transferring all of this information over. If something like this goes into effect non-combatants will have things they can be easily recognized for and fighters can have constant goals to work towards if they want to. I think that this could really help to stimulate participation in the national community.


This is a really good idea and is similar to the one that Ered Duath is working on implementing.

With our new council, we're redoing our realm and are incorporating things like this.

When we have it completely written out and hashed, I'll post it so you all can see how we implemented it. I will also post updates on how it works for us.


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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 1:55 pm 
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Just wondering, when it first starts out, how will people get to rank 3 and above if there are no people rank three and above? Will we have "self nominated" masterfoamsimithers and such? Or will there be an election or test?

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 Post subject: No good intention goes unpunished
PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 2:28 pm 
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Although the work put in to this is admirable- I think it is a waste and will never work.

A few things like this have been attempted in the pass and failed.

My own concern would be about the 'people' that would make this choice/ decision. Also- what does this proof or benifit.

As of now- people already know and appreciate the work of those that have and do work to make the game better and to make sure that it is fun for others.

But- if ya just need something to do.....

S

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 4:35 pm 
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I still think it needs to be regional, not national for this to work.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 05, 2007 5:33 pm 
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I don't want to have to jump through hoops or build something I don't want to build to be renowned for my foamsmithing work. I don't want to have to seek out and help organize "building sessions" or whatever. I would rather be known for my work than some label.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:00 am 
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Also, what about all the people that have done stuff clear up to some of the higher ranks but aren't known very nationally, are they going to have to do that all over again? And what if some of your experience is outside of belegarth, I've been working in high end catering for the past 8 years, does that experience transfer over to the guild system or not?

I know that things like these are going to be different from group to group, but I kinda have to agree with cedric that this should be more of a regional thing.


Other than that, I think everything looks pretty good and it would be really cool to actually get something like this off the ground. Maybe have some belt flags that you can give/mail to people or something when they are awarded a new rank.


Later

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 10:50 am 
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I think that being regional would be a great idea.

I also think that the reason people need to organize build sessions is because these positions are about service to the community of belegarth, and your home realm. This is a really good way to recognize people that are putting work in to help the game grow.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 11:02 am 
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See, that's fine! I'm all about me some service, believe that.

So, fold such things into service awards, like Realms already give out (Well, Dur-D does, anyway).

I just don't want to try to sell a few shields or swords in a couple of years and have people totally ignore my stuff because I'm not highly enough ranked in a system that includes service as opposed to pure mechanical design and manufacturing excellence.

That is my chief concern: The use of these guild ranks to classify people or to be a common certification that people look for before trusting someone's advice/buying someone's wares. Like, if the Professional Engineer license test included large sections on how many people Habitat for Humanity helped house that year and yet businesses still saw fit to determine hiring based on whether or not the applicant was licensed.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 2:45 pm 
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Arrakis- I see your point, but there is currently nothing remotely resembling a Proffessional Engineer test or certification in Belegarth.

All we have right now is word of mouth. While that's a fine system I was hoping for something that would let people know someone's skill level right off the back, often on the board there are new fighters giving out advice after having been to three practices, or making a single sword. This system would hopefully help new people sort good, experienced advice from that coming out of someone's *.

If you've already done most of this stuff then chances are good that you'll simply start with a higher guild rank. As we begin this process we need people to start it. If you've done all of the things listed then why not just start at rank 9? Then you're not losing anything by being part of the guild.

If you're all for service then does it seem like you're against this?

We're not trying to * anyone here, we're trying to do something positive for the sport and especially for non-combatants.

In general response to the thoughts about this being a regional initiative I couldn't agree more. If that turns out to be the case then I guess there is nothing that would stop different realms from having different guild requirements.

Remember that what we're trying to accomplish here is to set up some kind of framework for people to use and draw from. How it actually becomes implemented is a long ways off.

For all who weren't on the Fireboards to watch where this all came from let me give you a brief history.

Originally, as it was conceived on the Fireboard, there was a call from Kyrian for a system of recognizing those who have given exceptional service to the sport or had exemplary achievements. Initially the conversation centered around changing the system of belegarth knighting in a way that would recognize people. PRETTY MUCH EVERYONE HATED THAT IDEA, SO PLEASE DON'T MENTION NATIONAL KNIGHTHOOD.

Getting away from the subject of knights, we came to a system that would not only recognize people's accomplishments, but also give assistance to those wishing to learn aspects related to our sport other than combat. Thus was born was the concept of Guilds.

So far I'm encouraged by the survey which seems to suggest that about %50 of people support this idea in some form. I think that's enough to continue working on it. I don't think holding out for universal acceptance is going to do anything other than waste time.

Satanaka- Have you thought that maybe why other ideas like this one failed was that noone gave them a chance? Please don't doom this before it gets off the ground. I know you've been watching this thing (both the sport and our current guild formation attempt) for a long time and I value your input, but we understand that the guilds stand a good chance of failing. We're willing to put some effort into it anyway because we think it would be good for the sport.

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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:41 pm 
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I'm not necessarily opposed to a guild system or a system of honoring (saluting?) those who (are about to) rock in a particular field, I just don't want to mix fields together and call it something it isn't. An award of a particular rank in foamsmithing should probably (as hard as this is to implement/start) be based on a vote of whether or not that person has made a significant step on the road to foamsmithing excellence or, for high ranks, whether that person has somehow made a lasting contribution to the art. This contribution could have been leading several new people to greatness; hosting seminars; developing a new, widely loved design; making loaner weapons for a whole new Realm; or doing extensive testing of foam types and doing a cost-benefit analysis.

I just don't want things locked in too tightly to quantify a subjectively judged art like this.


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PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:53 pm 
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What happened to garbing? Is it not an integral part of what we do?

Why can't people who have already put in years of work in one or all these fields just get recognized already? Would a person who received a 9 or 10 rating be required to do all of the service to maintain their status or would they just be allowed to stop doing service and keep their "title"?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 9:13 am 
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i had to reread this list, and no garbing title is a rediculous oversite. sadly i am not qualified to make an appropriate list of requirements. but there should definaitly be one, garb is as important as weapons and more improtant than armor. good luck fighting in that armor while naked cause you don't have any passing garb. leather pinches the naughty bits i have heard.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:39 pm 
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sounds great, i'd be willing to help with what time i have. I'm of the opinion that if you're interested in being part of the guild and you've done the time/requirements what not you get the higher rank but this system can be something for the future that will help new fighters in the coming years, you don't have to start off with everyone on board to begin with.


satanaka- i don't think i've ever heard you say anything positive about a new idea on this forum...ever. If you don't like it don't participate.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 1:41 pm 
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Umm...actually a sewing and garb guild has been on the list since I first conceived this Idea. Those listed are just the ones that we've come up with concrete steps for.

To be honest I think the problem is that none of us that is working on this feels we have enough sewing experience to really say what each rank should consist of. If you'd like to cobble together a system then please do, we really want more people to be involved in this.

I think our list of guilds so far is:
Armor
Weapon
Cooking
Sewing/Garb
Marshalling
Event Planning
Tourney Running

This is not an exclusive list nor should it ever become so. If someone really wants to start a guild then they should be allowed. However, we need some sort of starting point for the guild.

Sorcia- Your point about the service ending is a good one, but it seems to me that most people who would car at all about the guilds would be those who want to see the sport grow. Thus it becomes a non-issue. If someone wants to do the bare minimum then I guess that's ok. Hopefully those peole who are going to join as a given rank will already be serving their realms or the sport in some respect.

Arrakis- I think I understand your ideas better now and I agree. It is for that reason that I don't consider any of what we've done so far or will do in the future to be set in stone. What we're going for here is a solid base that guild members can build from. In essence, nothing is "locked in tightly," but the exact opposite, anybody can change it, especially in this initial stage. I would encourage you to rewrite a version of the rank system as you would like to see it. You could even go so far as to implement your own version in your realm, that way we would have an operational model by which we could judge the merit.

Satanaka made the valid point very early on in the discussion that "Not all __(insert rank here)___ are created equally." This will almost assuredly hold true for the guilds. It seems like what you're saying is that the system we have so far isn't perfect. I agree, but waiting for perfection is like holding out for universal popularity, it just ain't gonna happen.

Reverend- I'm hoping to hear more about what Ered Duath comes up with. Keep us posted and feel free to use anything that you see here (or not). It would be great to see guilds actually working in a realm rather than just theorizing that they could work.

Elwrath- Great to have more heads working on this, mine gets a little fuzzy sometimes. If you want to pick a guild and write a ranking system for it that would be great.

As you can probably see, the form we've been using so far is:
Tier 1 - No _title_ awarded.
Rank 1 - Initiate, Say you want in, get a Guild Sponsor of rank X
Rank 2 - Attend X instruction sessions, keep Sponsor
Rank 3 - Complete X satisfactory items/tasks, keep Sponsor

Tier 2 - Guild Apprentice (Apprentice Taylor Soandso)
Rank 4 - Pass tests, find Trainer of at least 6th Rank, Local Guild Vote
Rank 5 - Complete tasks appointed by Trainer, Local Guild Vote
Rank 6 - Assist instruction sessions, Trainer Tasks, Local Guild Vote

Tier 3 - Guild Expert (Expert Smith Whatshername)
Rank 7 - Pass tests, find pupil of at least 3rd Rank, Multi-realm Guild Vote
Rank 8 - Lead X instruction sessions, X terms as Local Guild Officer, Multi-realm Guild Vote
Rank 9 - Pass Tests, graduate X pupils to rank 6+, Multi-realm Guild Vote

Tier 4 - The Master (Master Chef Awsomedude)
Rank 10 - X terms as National Guild Officer, National Guild Vote, Exemplary Achievements

Also, give Satanaka a break. While he's not necesarrily positive, he is being helpful in a manner of speaking, if all we had onboard were yes-men and women then I'd be very worried.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 4:25 pm 
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Ebonhold has been doing this for the last few years, with GREAT success. You have to keep it regional for this to work, or a national system that is broken into different regions with the authority of the national organization. Eastern people simply do not know the western people, and visa versa.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 07, 2007 11:35 pm 
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I voted yes! :angel:

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 11:06 am 
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Actually Cedric, I think what you're describing is pretty much exactly what we had in mind. Could you elaborate a bit on how it works?

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This is the funniest thing I've ever read on these boards and the rest of you are bad at things generally, too.

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2007 3:36 pm 
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the way Ebonhold works is we are run by a king and/or queen, and their second in command is the prince/princess. We have different awards based around service, arts and science, as well as combat. One of our awards is the Order of Ebonhold, which has its own ranks and is awarded for outstanding contributions to the realm. Master James "newt" and Sir Wharghoul were the lattest additions. Sir Wharghoul recieved it for service to our realm, even though he is not a memeber, and Newt recieved it and is primarily an SCA guy. The point being is that it is an all encompasing award that the king decides who is worthy to recieve it. ALL awards are handed out during court, or during a feast, which is always served and never buffet style, and with plenty of atmosphere. We have awards like this for as many aspects of the hobby as possible and each one is given out by the reigning royalty. Ebonhold does have alot of crossover SCA fighters, who do both sports. When Newt recieved his pelican award in the SCA, it included his contributions to the belegarth realm, so we have a great resource and help from the SCA people in the area.

The main thing to be aware of to making something like this work, is the support of the populace. The awards must be made to feel special, and the people who recieve them to make them feel like their work was truely worth it. I have my awards framed on the wall, and each one is a peice of parchment with calligraphy, medieval drawings, and such to make it look like a period scroll, not jsut a typed peice of paper. The populace must feel like the awards are cool, so they work towards them, but also not heckle and have some class during times of the awards ceremony, which the belegarth population as a whole sometimes has issues with. I know alot of realms near Ebonhold are implementing similar structures that we have been exploring over the last few years. It works for us here, we regularly have 40+ people to our practices, even in rural Idaho.

I can't tell you how to make this work, I just know that the awards must be regional, and sanctioned by a national organization of standards to keep each region on the same page. Otherwise regions like the west and the south will be left out. Hope that helped some, I know it was not the answers you were looking for, but I hope it is a base to build the foundations on. Belegarth must have an awards system, or we will continue to see people leave the sport after a few years, because there is nothing for them to acomplish.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:23 am 
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diversify more. there are not enough people that end up carrying the majority of the weight from my experience. i skimmed through the post and i dont think i caught a couple things, so pardon me if i make some repetition.

tried having a guild council operated realm once. died from lack of support, see my first comment. i thought the breakdown was sound though.

Armor guild
Foamsmith guild
*Heralds guild
*Tailors guild
*Bard guild

i like the idea of your cook guild.

each guild was to oversee the development of its field
the plan eventualy was to have bard guild be the event coordination guild, after all, the bards make up the stories. Herald guild was for training heralds and picking apart the rules. tailors is just another craft guild.

as i said this was to be the bones of a guild council run realm. 5 seats to have majority decision. the 5 guilds were selected based on things i didnt feel like doing anymore. i e sewing peoples garb, building peoples armor, maintaining a group weapons pile. [/b]


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:27 am 
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well.... guess i missed that post about 4 or 5 up


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 4:06 pm 
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It seems like a lot people are getting their blood angried up that we've forgotten some key guild (though some are in error). I would like to once again stress that if you want to see a particular guild then suggest it or, better yet, write out some requirements you think would be good for that guild.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:02 pm 
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As long as people are willing to support things then almost anything can work. If people see that things aren't working well enough it, like most other things, will fall the wayside. I don't think its fair to knock something to the ground before its given a chance. Since the beginning this organization has been solely aimed for fighters, but much of the work is being performed by non-fighters with little to no recognition. Many units who actually allow non-fighters into their units usually do so to get "free work" out of them and after a while the "used" person sees what's happening and many will quit the unit. Guilds are a wonderful way to recognize the non-fighting aspects of our organization. Why only recognize the fighters? Last I saw, most anyone can pick up a sword and run out onto the field and call themselves a "fighter" whether they're good or not.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 1:51 pm 
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I think it sounds pretty awesome so far. here are some thoughts-

I'd love it to be conciously new person centered. Its a step in that direction, for sure, but I could see it turning into just another thing that people already established in the sport are a part of.
What would encourage a new person to join? What would keep it new person centered?

It would just be annoying if there was another thing that pushed new people to the periphery- we already have tons of exclusive units for that.
dont get me wrong, units are fun and everything, and are a huge part of the sport- but what would keep guilds from being just another place where established people got together to feel established?

I think a solid event presence would help- workshops and sessions, or even just a table/ spot for guild stuff. just something that says "youre new and welcome" rather than "f u."


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:12 pm 
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About being newbie-centric. The Tier system for each guild is (should) be set up so the first tier focuses on learning the basics (associates-bachelor degree), the second tier is focused on teaching the basics and learning advanced forms of whatever craft the guild is centered on (bachelor-master degree) and the third tier is set to teach advanced techniques, created new ones (hence the Exemplary achievement requirement) and administration of the respective guild (master-doctorate degree). Tier 4 (rank 10) is reserved for the true exemplars who not only show incredible skill, but incredible dedication to their craft and peers.

This program isn't designed just to pat folks on the back for making cool armor, it's to reward and encourage group activity and teaching.

Simplified: To excel in tier 1 you need to learn the simple stuff. To excel in tier 2 you need to teach the simple while learning the advanced. To excel in tier 3 you need to teach the advanced while leading the guild. To attain rank 10 you should already be a household name and known for your students works as well as your own.

What this means to people who already kick *:
So long as you keep people informed and make your skills known, you won't (shouldn't) be screwed out of a rank. But remember that this isn't just about having skills, it's about passing them on. If you're in this purely for bragging rights then you're in it for the wrong reasons.

That's my opinion anyhow. I've got a ton more but this post is already too long.

Man it's good to see this train still has steam (and it's even on the tracks!).

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:53 pm 
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word Animus. In theory it sounds really great, and is new kid centered enough. I just worry that once its in practice, it'll be more like a SuperUnit than a training grounds for newer fighters/community members.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 15, 2008 1:28 pm 
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Mongoose, I understand your concerns but think you might be a little misguided in the way you're thinking about the guilds. They're not meant to be at all like units. I don't remember who said it, but the comment was made that if field units are the tabard you wear and off field units are a belt flag, then guilds would be like a lapel pin.

Another thing you should keep in mind is that in our current disscussion, we are trying to focus on keeping the guilds locally (realm) focused. This should theoretically keep them from becoming the exclusive cliques that you are worried about them becoming. Anyone who wants to learn should be able to join a guild.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 16, 2008 12:25 pm 
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Rowan wrote:
I don't remember who said it, but the comment was made that if field units are the tabard you wear and off field units are a belt flag, then guilds would be like a lapel pin.

thats good- fair enough.

re: local focus- thats really good too. i guess i dont see quite how that will work, but i'll try not to judge it too harshly before it exists ;)
then again, i am in the sticks as far as foam fighting is concerned, so i'm a little biased. but again, if it works as intended, it would totally rock.


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Mongoose wrote:
Rowan wrote:
I don't remember who said it, but the comment was made that if field units are the tabard you wear and off field units are a belt flag, then guilds would be like a lapel pin.

thats good- fair enough.

re: local focus- thats really good too. i guess i dont see quite how that will work, but i'll try not to judge it too harshly before it exists ;)
then again, i am in the sticks as far as foam fighting is concerned, so i'm a little biased. but again, if it works as intended, it would totally rock.


Basicly tier 1 and 2 will be more of a local thing, tier 3 will be an area and tier 4 being mult realm/national thing.

(I'm gun-ho for foam smithing) so at the local level a new person can learn how to make the simple stuff and become a good foam smith among his/her realm. Then the person can take his/her knowledge and help other groups while expanding his/her own.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 3:23 pm 
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What about a propaganda guild? For peoples who's talent lies in advertising [Flyers and things like that?]

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2008 10:33 pm 
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Amongst my group we use guild to run efficiantly. Anything to help this become a national group over a regional I will do all I can.
I will still hold that is one of the key elements to groups like SCA and Jomsvikings being so large is national over regional. Kingdoms work.

If the closest we can get to is guilds then sign me up and I will help with all that is needed.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 1:43 pm 
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Thorrinn: The best thing you could do to help is take one of the guild ideas and rough out some requirements for it.

HW: The same goes for you, if you want a propaganda guild or maybe a printers' guild then write up a system.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:09 pm 
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As of right now, what needs to be done for guilds to be implemented? Just someone to start using the system, ie play testing. Or are there still things to be ironed out.

I was very skeptical early, but looking around now this seems like a great idea. But you need a list of goals for this thread to accomplish.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 2:21 pm 
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Which guilds need help with setting out a guidline and I would be happy to help. Just let me know.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:12 pm 
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I think a simplified set of rules is the best way to start. Making things too complex will ensure that if this is tried regionally that things are bound to go wrong somewhere. Name guilds (others can always be added) and set rules for each. Then, find people who are willing to take on the task as guildmaster to oversee those who wish to "apprentice" in the guild.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 4:35 pm 
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I would think foam smithing would be a good one to test. not only because I'd like to see that one take shape, but the majority of our populace can test it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 19, 2008 7:25 pm 
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Printers and Propagandist Guild

Rank 1 Apprentice:
level 1. Say you want to join and get a sponsor of rank 3 or higher
level 2. Complete five basic commissions[ business cards, signatures, small web banners]
level 3. Submit three pieces of work to your sponsor to critique and have them pass review

Rank 2 Printer:
Level 1. Complete fifteen Medium level commissions [ Flyers, Posters, Medium Banners]
Level 2. Submit five pieces of work and have all of them pass review from a rank 3 or higher

Rank 3. Master Printer
Level 1. Complete one Major commission [Large Banner or Website]
Level 2. Create a basic video of a fighting Event, Practice, or Instructional video.

Rank 4: Propagandist
Level 1. Complete Three Major commissions
Level 2. Create a exceptional video of a fighting event, practice, or instructional video
Level 3. Take on a Apprentice and have him graduate to rank 2.

Rank 5: Vinco of os intorqueo
Guild leader

I think this is ok for a guild of this sort?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 12:20 pm 
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HW: That's a good start. Would it be possible to break down the commissions into skill sets you'd like to see at each level? Examples might be use of space, alignment, font choice etc.

Ideally, these would be divided up into the levels with the easier things to learn at the beginning and the harder stuff later. Like say using graphic design programs to place text being in the first level while more advanced blending techniques for photos would be an advanced skill.

Thorinn: If you could rough out a tailor's/sewing guild that would great, there seems to be a number of people who want one, but noone has stepped up to create it yet.


Generally: As to what needs to be accomplished, I'd say that some testing is indeed in order. We should pick one or two guilds which we think are fairly well polished and select someone who is willing to lead a test guild in their realm. I'd say the test run should go for 6 mos. to a year at least. At the end of that time it can be evaluated for what worked about it and what did not.

As Cedric mentioned before, we need to be serious about recognizing the accomplishments of our people. For this reason we need to come up with a symbol of status for guild members and others who have contributed greatly to the sport.

I, personally, like what Cedric suggested in having a certificate on parchment calligraphied with the recognition, or something like that. Anybody else have ideas on this?

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 1:41 pm 
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Would it be possible to break down the commissions into skill sets you'd like to see at each level

I honestly wouldn't know how that'd work and be honestly testable.

I was thinking of a sorta request thread that the Guild master delegates to the proper member level and a due date of some sort who ever gets the picture done and turned in gets credit for the commission and some sorta reward for the person who's commission gets picked. Any questions at the lower level will be delegated to the sponsor and anyone else on the level.

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I will start on a garbers guild today

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Quote:
As Cedric mentioned before, we need to be serious about recognizing the accomplishments of our people. For this reason we need to come up with a symbol of status for guild members and others who have contributed greatly to the sport.

I, personally, like what Cedric suggested in having a certificate on parchment calligraphied with the recognition, or something like that. Anybody else have ideas on this?


As soon as I know the full number of ranks in each discipline, it would be trivial to compose a symbol for each, to be done in 1-3 colors on 1-3 colors of field for a lapel pin, belt flag, patch, pendant, etc. This would be in addition to an official certificate, as a more visible symbol of rank and achievement.

Example:

Foamsmithing Guild

A pair of swords crossing behind a shield from top to bottom along both diagonals on a solid field, colors of foreground and field to be determined by grade:
4th- Silver on a Blue Field
Image

3rd- Gold on a Blue Field
Image

2nd- Silver on a Black Field
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1st- Gold on a Black Field
Image

Like I said, this can be expanded if there are more than four Grades in any particular Guild. Just get me a number of ranks per Guild and I'll work something up, if you like.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 21, 2008 5:18 pm 
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Good Job Arrakis...a bit rough roun' the edges but, good none the less for a rough draft.... wanna join the Propagandists guild?

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very good arrakis, if you can message me on yahoo and we can find one for the garbers guild

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I guess printers guild could use something like this?

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 22, 2008 3:35 pm 
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Although I dig the symbols, they would be hell to put on anything but a commercially bought patch. The brown on the sword hilts for example, makes that one too technical. Even the printers guild one I don't think could be done on a patch. How about something simple.

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Yeah, Jimmy, that was just a slap-together job. If I were doing it for real, I'd vector the design up, simplify, and send PSDs.

Also, a more complicated version of the symbol could be used, later, if a guild wanted to run off a run of lapel pins.


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Even the printers guild one I don't think could be done on a patch

Bah if I wanted it on a patch or something I'd have put it in a form in which to make it a patch. I consider that more of a Place holder symbol until someone with more skills in the awe-inspiring symbol department takes a wack at it.

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 Post subject: colors and shapes
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:59 am 
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Arrakis is really on to something. My idea is we assign each guild one color and a person just wears a necklace with one bead of said color for each tier they've gained within a guild. An expert herald, novice foamsmith, master cook would say wear a necklace with three yellow (after the color of a heralds tabbard), one blue ('cause most of us use blue foam), and four white (paper plates). The beads would all be side by side so as not to be confused with a necklace someone just wears to look good.

The inspiration came from "A Game of Thrones" by George R. R. Martin. Maester Luwin's necklace is the symbol of his order. The special thing about it, though, is that each link is forged of a different metal...I don't think we can pull that off.

Symbols is by far cooler, but printing them and having them look good would be expensive, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: colors and shapes
PostPosted: Tue Feb 12, 2008 1:13 am 
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Animus wrote:
Symbols is by far cooler, but printing them and having them look good would be expensive, I think.


My solution: Iron on printer paper. This way you can have the image of the symbol on a nationally known site and people can print it out and make their own belt flags, tabards, tunics, etc. Plus, it's pretty cheap and easy to it's accessible to anyone with a computer, internet, and a printer.

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