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Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation
http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=140&t=24559
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Author:  Mekoot Rowan [ Tue Feb 12, 2008 12:58 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: colors and shapes

Melannen wrote:
Animus wrote:
it's pretty cheap and easy to it's accessible to anyone with a computer, internet, and a printer.


so as to the people who don't have one of those things they're just SOL?

I kind of like this colored necklace idea, it makes recognition on sight easy and is a standard symbol. People could even customize their necklace to fit their garb. More than one guild membership? More than one color on your necklace.

Author:  Hatchet [ Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:07 pm ]
Post subject: 

so as to the people who don't have one of those things they're just SOL?

All public library's have computers with printers and the internet.

Author:  Mekoot Rowan [ Tue Feb 12, 2008 3:53 pm ]
Post subject: 

I beg to differ, but then again many small towns libraries are on their last legs.

The trouble here is in this becoming just another belt flag among the dozens that are already out there. This isn't about what's easiest, it's about doing something new and different.

Regardless, this isn't really that important at this stage in the game.

What we really need right now is continuing work on the guild system and someone willing to start a trial phase in their home realm.

Author:  Hatchet [ Tue Feb 12, 2008 8:14 pm ]
Post subject: 

I technically could start the Propaganda guild considering most everything said guild does is digital. A section on the Bel boards and the blessings of everyone involved... I'd even think this would be a good guild to start with to see if a system could be implemented due to the ease of communication between members and testing due to the nature of the guild.

A few other members and say a realm/people that actually wants somethin' done

Author:  Jael [ Sun Mar 23, 2008 7:52 pm ]
Post subject: 

Wow I am loving all of this. I haven't been in Belegarth very long, but I love it and think that guilds are great to help increase community, and will really move Belegarth forward in the big picture as an art not just people hitting each other with foam sticks. I love the fact that some guidelines are being set for goals, like the Knights have. Lets face it not everyone is going to be able to be a Knight, it is to physically demanding for people like me. But I could become a master Chef or Seamstress. Right now I am not seeing very many people in Belegarth over the age of 30. I know they are out there I have meet Sir Wargoul, but I think that guilds will help keep people in longer.

I think that the patches idea is great. If you have a good sewing machine that does pictures just about anything can be put on a sash! Karion D'Learive one of the Squires in my relm has a sash with machine badges for his Knight's symbol, trumpets for being a herald and several other things and it looks very sharp and I can tell different things about him by looking at it. With the bead thing I would have to remember which color stands for which how many possible beads one could have and what if one holds high rank in several guilds. That could be a lot of beads. A patch can pretty much sum things up. Also, the way that people view a patch verses a string of beads. The patch is a real honor and something to work for.

Finally, I having a lot of experience in catering and a Bachelor's degree in Food Science and a minor in Nutrition, I would recommend that the standard for a Cooking guild also include food safety lessons. I know there wasn't a lot of food safety in medieval times, but we definitely don't want to be spreading food poisoning around.

Author:  HesinRaca [ Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:07 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

I think this is an excellent system to build national recognition of skill. I know it was said a few times, but as with Arakis' concern, I think it would be important to allow "testing out" options. Aka, if I have a working samply of 4n1, 6n1 kings maille, dragon scale, leather grieves, and a courbouli breast plate, I could submit these items for a higher rank. That way the system goes more towards putting words to recognition already in effect in the society, and then people that want to "become foam smiths" can have a step process to do that.

With that said, there will always be renegade artists that dont ahve classifications or degrees and yet do amazing work.

As for another guild. Since it is "Medieval Combat Society", despite the fact that the sport has evolved from medievla combat and not AS medieval combat, a guild that emphasized the roots of that evolution would be good. One that emphasized the product too...


Guild A: Medieval COmbat Roots
(suggested check list to be organized if desired)
-learn and memorize one western european sword form.
-Describe the implimentation and reason behind form
-Learn and memorize one eastern european weapons form.
-Describe the implimentation and reason behind form
-Learn and memorize the 12 positions of Cali.
-Describe the implimentation and reason behind form
-Learn Short Northern form(i believe this one is middle eastern)
-Describe the implimentation and reason behind form
-Learn Long Southern (western asian?)
-Describe the implimentation and reason behind form
-Describe first Xnumber of folios in Fiore's Maniscripts.

So on so forth, basically provide rank recognition for knowing where the sport was born.


GUild B - Combat Specialization
THis guild would be based on actual capacity in the sport. I know many units impliment badges and field tests where they are tested for their skill. As Savetuba said, make the first two or three tiers local and then to achieve higher tiers you have to do tests at large events.
Tiers could be labeled by rank:
Tier 1 - Squire
Tier 2 - Baron
Tier 3 - Duke
Tier 4 - Knight
Tier 5 - Exhaulted Knight

Tests could be stuff like:
1v1
1v2
1v3 (and so on)
1v archer
1v spearman
1v unit
coridor runs
round robins
around the world
archery target tests (stationary distance, and moving distance)
take on a squire/apprentice
teach a seminar on field technique
unit leadership
field command
strategy design and implimentation
Etc.


THe issue with guild 2 is that it would allow for a lot of ego tripping, which is no good. But if it could be implimented in a way that it emphasized a person's capacity in the sport and their capacity to teach others, sort of a way for lower skilled palyers to find people that know what they're doing, it could prove very useful... less of a heirchy and more of a reference table.

Author:  Rocca [ Sat Jul 05, 2008 3:20 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

I agree in general that the whole insignia patch/necklace thing seams a little out of place at this stage of the game, however I think that for adequate testing of the guild system it is necessary. In order to truly see if the system works, at a regional or national level, we need to have recognizable symbols that people from other realms will notice and either 1)know what it means or 2) ask what it means. I vote that we implement the necklace system (or another bead/cheep system) for that start so that we can establish the basic colors associated with the guilds and have a symbol system that is 1)inexpensive since we don't know if this will work and don't want to spend money on it if it doesn't and 2) can be easily created without much argument about specifics (as the creation of lasting symbols is want to do).

Example colors (I'm stealing from Animus here):
Hearalds: yellow
Foam smithing: blue
Cook: white
Garb: green
Bard (or event planning or tourney running): purple
Armor: red

These colors are just suggestions and I really don't care what colors we use but again, i think that unless there is some agreement on guild insignia any testing of guilds will not be on a large enough level. After we see if this works we could get symbols going and really polish up the guild system.

Author:  Hatchet [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 7:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

think that unless there is some agreement on guild insignia any testing of guilds will not be on a large enough level.


Insignia in the grand scheme of things don't matter. It's what they represent that matters. First off you should get a majority of established realms to say "Yes, We recognize these tests that show the competency of the individual." So an outline of events should be... lets say for example a heralds guild

1. Have a rough draft of all policies of the guild of heralds [ A constitution.]

2. Send it to the War Council and get suggestions and polish it.

3. Rewrite the policies and send it back to war council
[was rinse repeat till a majority of the realms on war council says yea this is fine]

4. Start getting as many realms as possible to accept that proof of heraldry means your competent enough to not only know the rules but; referee.

5. Start thinking up insignia and freeky voodoo rituals of acceptance here.


That is how it should run.



Tier 4 - Knight
Tier 5 - Exhaulted Knight


If this where to be implemented I wonder what the "actual" knights of say [Knights of King Kingsford exempted. =D]

Author:  Rocca [ Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

Insignia in the grand scheme of things don't matter. It's what they represent that matters.

well yes of course. However, that whole "outline of events" is completely moot at this point as we are not even sure groups would go for this on a national level. I was just pointing out that in the "testing" of it, as described earlier (a procedure that would not have the level of organization you described), some sort of system of recognizable level insignia needs to be made. The level of organization and steps you described are exactly the right way to go about it if one knows that this sort of guild system is going to catch on. If there is not enough interest however I don't see the point of wasting the War Council's time - hence the test.

Author:  Davit [ Sun Jul 13, 2008 9:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

I'm going to disagree on the combat guilds, have something about history or the like, but leave combat stuff out of this, or it will never get off the ground. I for one think that we do need much more recognition for those in the sport that do non-combat things, but (especially if you start throwing the knight title around) people are going to whine about the fighting stuff, and IMO there is already enough recognition for combat.

Getting back to guild ideas that I think should be supported:
I love the idea in general, but how about we make it more "service" based. Some of the ideas for ranks have a bit of this implemented, but rather than say, get someone to rank x, how about it is simplified to, help x people learn the basics of x skill, or help any realm get x done etc....

Another thing, I know wolfpack does "honor chains" as a way of recognizing lots of things including things like best garber and foamsmith. I also read of a similar idea in a book, where each person in an organization got to put a new link on a chain etc. I also really like that idea where people are getting away from the beltflags, and that we want to keep it simple.

Finally, keep this discussion going, this is one area where many "combat" organizations are ahead of us, the more people we get to join for differing reasons the better supported our events will be all around.

Author:  Porthos [ Mon Jul 14, 2008 8:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

I think there are only three actual honor chains given out in Wolfpack. The rest were beltflags, if I remember correctly (this year I think they did etched mugs instead due to the chaos in putting Springwars on).

If we're getting away from beltflags, what would be the replacement then? The chains are a good idea, don't get me wrong, but we would want them to be visible, wouldn't we?

My suggestion would be a beltflag for "apprentice" levels, a braided rope "chain" for the journeyman levels (the middle tier), and then masters would get actual chains made of chainmail. I would also think that they would hang off of the belt. I made a braided rope in Clan of the Hydra colors and draped them in front of the beltflag I made for Hydra as well. Perhaps something like that? You could make a generic guild system beltflag, and the color of the braids/chains could be symbolic of different guilds. I know TheRingLord sells different colored aluminum chain links. I think we could find a way to symbolize each particular rank through a variation of colors, metals, weaves and number of chains/braids.

I believe that someone came up with a rather elaborate system for different guilds. Maybe we could res erect that list?

The other issue is how to institute the system in the first place? Who would be the governing body? I mean, would we take existing crafters, verify thier work, and raise them up? There would have to be a system and a way to enforce that system, like through guild tests. But the question I"m trying to get at is- who would administer those tests?

Author:  Davit [ Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:46 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

Like lots of people have been saying, it needs to be local so as to the governing body.....that would include anyone who wants to start it up. Sure at the beginning you are going to be getting lots of people that are wondering what the **** you are doing this for but oh well, that's part of starting something new.

And porthos, if you read some of the earlier posts, there are lots of reasons why beltflags are a bad idea, so I'd say go with something else.

Author:  Jael [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 7:02 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

So here is an idea I don't think I have heard yet. For the material to make the symbols for the guilds and ranks. Belt braids. Just a braid made to be whatever color for said guild. Maybe two of the same color for the guild and one of a different color for rank. Or different material like cotton fabric and yarn mixed or leather mixed or ribbon mixed or lace mixed (maybe for grab guild) or velvet mixed. The braid could be only about a foot long and worn from a belt. The fact that it is fabric will make it so that you can wear it if you battle and not worry about others getting hurt like anything that has beads or chains on it. Also it's smaller than a belt flag.

Author:  Mekoot Gorlock [ Fri Jul 18, 2008 10:17 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

I like the way you are generating ideas for how to show people that you are in a guild. That being said I don't think that braids are the best idea. A lot of monster wear many different kinds of braids on their person at almost all times. I know that I have a belt full of braids.

Author:  Porthos [ Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:25 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

I suggested the braided rope braids, just because I found them to be easier. Nothing on HoRdE, but I got the idea from the British military, how they have the braids on the shoulder epulattes. That, and HoRdE, as well as other units, could keep on wearing thier own braids without it being confused for guilds. It's fairly easy to distinguish small guage rope from woven cloth (from what I've see of HoRdEs briads, they tend to be strips of cloth spun together, correct?). They even have little tassels in various colors that could be added to the ropes as well, to signifiy rank.

I still stand by the chain ideas as well. With the number of chain/necklace/bracelet type weaves, as well as the variety of colors/materials out there for links, we could accomodate a lot of guilds. The chains could be used for the much higher ranks. The only concern that I can think of at this moment is confusing them with the knight chain necklaces, which is what I want to avoid.

*Wow...I missed the "don't" part of Gorlock's post. Sorry about that, I got back from Dark Knight and my head was hurting a bit*

Author:  Mekoot Gorlock [ Sun Jul 20, 2008 1:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

we do use mostly fabric. I was just making sure that people knew the potential risk in the braid idea.

Author:  Tobin [ Sat Sep 13, 2008 11:57 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

First off, let me say that I'm quite satisfied with the discussions posted in this forum. It's nice to see that people are willing to go out on a limb for the betterment of the sport and the game around it.

I'm trying to get a guild started, based in Wolfpack, for fire performers and safeties. The general (and please note, unfinished) outline of the objectives, rules and rankings can be found at this page on my site. I'd appreciate some feedback, especially since it's not following a lot of the ranking systems outlined in this forum. The focus is centered on the safety of the performers and audience--the goal being to minimize the risk of the grievous injuries that playing with fire can impart.

For all of the guilds, regardless of how or what they represent, I think the important thing is to standardize expectations--not necessarily outcomes. For the fire performers' guild, my goal is to get everyone who plays with fire to abide by a standard set of rules, no matter how they play with fire. I think the same idea can be applied to almost everything--foam smithing, garb, etc.--and still leave plenty of room for creativity. While I'm all for coming up with a unified identification for guild members, I think the focus should be on the infrastructure first.

Author:  bo1 [ Sun Sep 14, 2008 12:34 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

love it. fire saftey is a good thing. i have alwayus wonderred why we have so few fire saftey rules.

Author:  Mekoot Rowan [ Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:15 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

Tobin, looks good to me. You have a clear structure and goals. The guidelines set forth here are intended as an operable framework to someone who wants to start a guild, not as a set-in-stone requirement for guild creation.

If it were me I think I might say a little more about how and where to find training in fire skills while keeping everything you have about safety.

Author:  Tobin [ Mon Sep 15, 2008 6:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

Rowan wrote:
If it were me I think I might say a little more about how and where to find training in fire skills while keeping everything you have about safety.



Thanks. Like I said, this is completely unfinished--I want to develop the fire safety training sessions with other folks so I can cover as much information as possible, and the document I posted is actually just the first draft.

There will also be a statement about how no one's telling you how to do your specific performance with fire, and the goal is just to get an agreed-upon set of rules and guidelines to minimize the chance of injury to the audience and performers.

Author:  Quickie [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:37 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

seems a little stuid for me to say but being an eagle scout and a fire eater the scout handbook has a lot of stuff about fire safety. perhaps it will give you guidlines on teaching a corse.

with that said i don't really care what the distingiushing insignia is (chain or otherwise). hell, it could be a remeniscent of a nazi armband. i don't care,
but as it seems people are trying to bring combat into this and my concern with that is of the houses and units.
i mean if guilds are started (for what ever purpose) will that at all encompass combat comrodery? or propel a more distinct gap between stick jocks and noncoms?

with that i'm all for a bardic guild. this could be more of a preformers guild than anything, with focus on historical background, musical and otherwise preforming talents, and historical accuracy.

Author:  Mekoot Rowan [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 6:40 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

Merc- Did you have a question you wanted answered in there somewhere? Or were you rambling for the sake of it?

If you would like to see a bardic guild, then I would encourage you to start one in your area.

Author:  Davit [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:33 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

In response to you on the would it drive a wedge even more so...I've thought about this at length, and I think not. There's already a wedge in the minds of some people, but I don't think guilds would make it any bigger. Remember that it would be cool if more merchants would come out, more people learn how to make cool looking feast gear, perform at events, wear neat looking clothing etc. Not only would it get more people in our sport, in my opinion it would get those already here to become more involved, or at least give them the opportunity.

Author:  Quickie [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 2:16 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

the post was edited to make more sense. it was late when i typed that.

Author:  Rocca [ Fri Sep 19, 2008 4:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

It think that, rather then create a wedge or even leave what wedge there is alone, the creation of guilds would lesson the gap between "stick jocks" and noncoms. By acknowledging the talents of noncoms rather then just grouping them all together it acknowledges there place in our sport and gives them a role besides "the random people who just watch." Also, i believe that many fighters would belong to at least one guild, bringing them closer together to the noncoms. I mean, if we had guilds, I personally would love to be in the bardic guild and the armorers guild, and I've fought since the dag-bel split.

Author:  WolfSmith [ Sun Sep 28, 2008 10:03 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

I think this is a good idea, but maybe we should focus more on a badge system for helping others or improving oneself on there desierd area. My father and I have been in leather work since I can remember, and i wouldn't want his work looked badly on because he isn't ranked high.

Author:  Quickie [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

maybe its just me... but that ,post wolfsmith, makes no sense.
what are you trying to say?

Author:  Mekoot Rowan [ Mon Sep 29, 2008 11:50 am ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

Wolfsmith: If you and your father have been letherworking for a long time then I would suggest starting a guild in your area if you have the desire. Anything you see here is kind of like a suggestion to get other people started, not a concrete framework. If you'd like to go further and get a national guild going then I would suggest starting a thread about leather working and advertising some of what you would like to see.

I wouldn't worry about someone thinking the produced materials are inferior simply because of some rank. In my experience, a craftsman's work speaks for itself.

We started this idea in the hopes that we would be able to recognize those people who are good at what they do. We haven't gotten very far yet, but hopefully it will grow.

Author:  debuenzo [ Tue Oct 07, 2008 9:36 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

new guild: Zymurgists

tier 1: Novice
make a yeast fermented beverage that is drinkable

tier 2: Apprentice
consistently make yeast fermented beverages that are deemed "good" by a majority of guildmates

tier 3: Adept
consistently make yeast fermented beverages that are deemed "excellent" by a majority of guildmates

tier 4: Brewmeister
consistently make yeast fermented beverages that are deemed "excellent" by all guildmates

Author:  Sir Sasquatch [ Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Continuing the discussion of Guild Formation

I think the guild Idea is cool and getting recognition for things other then just fighting can only help the game, this said,

Administering a guild program on a national or even regional level tends to make it harder for the guilds that are separated by a long distance. Out west I know we have realms that are separated by upwards of 200 miles or more sometimes from other realms and to confine things regionally would make for long commutes and It is hard enough to get people to travel for full on events let alone for weapons making or garbing or cooking sessions.
I think it might have more of a chance of working if the individual realm leaders are incorporated into the guild advancement procedures as they are the ones that will really see the majority of the effort first hand, Also there are many that have been involved in the sport for a long time and have more then proven their abilities nationally, regionally, and even locally, Should a person not be able to gain advancement in a guild because they cannot or have not been to any larger events? I know that there is some importance in having been seen at and involved in larger events and groups and even units.
I think that a system of official national requirements that are administered on a more local level stands more of a chance of sucess, Not only on the idea of guilds but also on the idea of Knighthood.

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