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[quote] National Recognition/Title System
by Kyrian 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
With knighthood currently being defined by realms and individual knights, I’d like to see a system for recognizing and awarding those who excel in Belegarth at the national level. I’ve deliberately left out the specifics of what those awards and _title_s might be since I feel they might bias people for/against the system because of the names or symbols that may be chosen. Why would a national system be important? Because, in my opinion, recognition for achievements both on the battlefield and off it must be treated equally if we want to see Belegarth truly grow. We need to be a society, not simply a sport of beating people with padded sticks. There are those who give so much of themselves in the non-combat aspects of Belegarth and yet are often treated as second-class citizens with little to no recognition of the work they do.

Here are the models used by other groups, each with a significantly larger population than Belegarth.

1) Amtgard has broadened the definition of knighthood to represent excellence in a chosen field, not only battlefield achievement. Amtgard has four knighthoods:

a) Knight of the Sword for battlefield skills
b) Knight of the Crown for serving in kingdom-level leadership positions
c) Knight of the Flame for service to the kingdom and Amtgard
d) Knight of the Serpent for excellence in the arts and sciences

2) The SCA has three awards/_title_s:

a) "Knight" for excellence in combat
b) "Pelican" for service
c) "Laurel" for excellence in the arts and sciences

Both these groups have seen that recognizing excellence in all facets of communities such as ours (combat, service, arts and sciences) is essential for growth.

Seeing how these award systems have worked for both the SCA and Amtgard, I wholeheartedly believe we need something similar in Belegarth. The Belegarth members selected for these awards would have to satisfy three criteria:

a) Excellence and skill in their chosen field of endeavor.
b) Willingness and skill to teach others.
c) An inspiration to others in that particular field.

Since beginnings can be such fragile things, I propose the following process for the first awardees. These awardees need to have a national presence, i.e., individuals recognized by more than one voting realm, in order to be eligible:

a) Each voting realm will submit one nominee for each of the three categories: combat, service to Belegarth and/or the realms, and the arts and sciences.
b) From this listing, the number of nominees will be pared down to no more than three for each category. If a consensus for the top three in each category cannot be reached, i.e., the top three eligible people cannot be decided, then a vote will be brought to the War Council to determine the top three.
c) These nine members would be the first awardees and will make up the Award Council. It will determine term length, criteria, identifying eligible appointees, and other points important to making the process fair and equitable. These will be codified into a charter that must be approved by War Council prior to implementation. At a minimum, the charter must contain the following subjects:

1) Criteria for eligibility.
2) Maintaining status, i.e., once awarded, do the awardees need to do anything to maintain their status? The idea is somewhat like how professional organizations require members to earn a certain number of continuing education credits each year.
3) Serving on the Award Council.
4) Grievance and loss of award processes.
5) The symbols/heraldry/_title_s associated with the awards.
6) The nomination and voting processes.
7) The mentoring process.
8) Interactions with War Council.

e) Once the Award Council has been formed and the charter approved, the process is handed over from War Council to the Award Council.
f) War Council will be the convening authority should there be any issues with the Award Council. War Council has the authority to dissolve the Award Council with a 3/4-majority vote.

Opinions and comments are greatly appreciated.

Post edited by: Kyrian, at: 2007/10/15 22:35

Post edited by: Kyrian, at: 2007/10/15 22:37
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Savetuba 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
so how does this recognize distant groups that put a lot of effort into all aspects? Or how does this recognize those who don't bother with these boards?

A national system sounds great, but as it stands now only those in the bread basket areas will be "qualified" for any national recognition.

This seems like a way to retain members of larger groups than a method to attract and help grow the sport.

From this listing, the number of nominees will be pared down to no more than three for each category. If a consensus for the top three in each category cannot be reached, i.e., the top three eligible people cannot be decided, then a vote will be brought to the War Council to determine the top three.

So what happens when Gwynedd or Andor submits someone for service that has been a great beacon in their area? Who in the 'bread basket' areas would even be able to understand the amount of service rendered by the person submitted?

Small, Isolated groups are going to get the shaft on this one.

Post edited by: Savetuba, at: 2007/10/15 23:20
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
How would this impact _title_s currently posessed? Would they suddenly have less value, given the 'new order'? While it is true that a standardized system might be helpful, this seems like too large of a jump.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Kyrian 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Savetuba wrote:
so how does this recognize distant groups that put a lot of effort into all aspects? Or how does this recognize those who don't bother with these boards?

A national system sounds great, but as it stands now only those in the bread basket areas will be "qualified" for any national recognition.

This seems like a way to retain members of larger groups than a method to attract and help grow the sport.

From this listing, the number of nominees will be pared down to no more than three for each category. If a consensus for the top three in each category cannot be reached, i.e., the top three eligible people cannot be decided, then a vote will be brought to the War Council to determine the top three.

So what happens when Gwynedd or Andor submits someone for service that has been a great beacon in their area? Who in the 'bread basket' areas would even be able to understand the amount of service rendered by the person submitted?

Small, Isolated groups are going to get the shaft on this one.<br><br>Post edited by: Savetuba, at: 2007/10/15 23:20

Good points. Any suggestions on how we can make sure the isolated groups don't get lost? Should we maybe have Councils at the regional levels? I should point out that both Amtgard and the SCA utilize these systems at their kingdom (what would essentially be a voting realm equivalent) levels.

How would this impact _title_s currently posessed? Would they suddenly have less value, given the 'new order'? While it is true that a standardized system might be helpful, this seems like too large of a jump.

It's not intended to supersede or overwrite any current _title_s but be something that is concurrent to what's out there now. If you can figure out how we can get non-combatants recognized to the same degree as knights, I'd like to know, since given our history, a person can't get knighted if they don't fight. I know that's how it's been in the past but I don't think it's where we should be in the future.

Post edited by: Kyrian, at: 2007/10/16 00:30

Post edited by: Kyrian, at: 2007/10/16 00:43
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Dacian 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
If you can figure out how we can get non-combatants recognized to the same degree as knights, I'd like to know, since given our history, a person can't get knighted if they don't fight. I know that's how it's been in the past but I don't think it's where we should be in the future.


I don't know if I technically agree fullheartedly with this. Before I say anything, I'd like to say it's not my intention to demean (sp?) what participants do outside the fighting aspect of Belegarth. However, I believe that first and foremost, Belegarth is a combat society. I am all for recognizing those who excel in things other than fighting, but I disagree that they should be considered "knights". Granted, knights should be responsible for everything encompassing the game whether it be fighting, duty to the realm/game, or arts and sciences. I am not suggesting that those who don't fight are lesser than those who fight, I just feel, that a knight should be someone who fights. I don't believe one is better than the other, or that they should be "equal" in recognition. I just think they should be separated altogether as in those who fight(knights), and those who don't (pelican, laurel, etc). Once again, I mean no offense by my statement. I just believe that a knight should at least be a fighter.

just my $.02
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Cedric 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
this is something we do on the local level out here in Ebonhold. A little recognition in front of your peers goes along ways. I think it is something that our sport needs. I also think that it would need to be regional, but now we are going to start dividing up the realms by regions, and someone is going to get angry, even if it is a division just for award status.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Izareth 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
First of all, I would like to point out that the Message Board will be intrinsic to any decisions made of this kind. This is due to ease of communication. This is also a political institution you are proposing, it is not bad, per se, but it will ruffle feathers, that is unaviodable.

Now, to brass tacks. I would have to say that even for a field _title_, service outside the fighting field would have to be considered. This would ensure that some legitimate service to the group was performed and not just "he/she's great at his/her hobby."

To Savetuba, this would have to have a representative system in order to work. Again, this will be political, and the more people we have in the group, the more political it becomes. As aforementioned, this in done on a realm-type level in Amtguard. I'm not familiar with it personally, but I can see that is certianly a way to ensure support from those who know the individual. This would be the first step.

Having a recognized symbol which is awarded at a local level which is respected by those who directly interact with the _title_d simultaneously lends credibility to the _title_ and the individual.

The first place to start is to establish the _title_ and the symbol. Maybe the symbol can be brandished in tandem with the realm symbol, this will allow pride in the realm to bolster the national recognition.

For example, if the symbol was a sword with a gold ribbon, and it was given out in Dur-Demarion, it would share space with a citadel (Dur-Demarion's symbol)

Post edited by: Izareth, at: 2007/10/16 06:55
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Big Jimmy 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Amptguard has a rank system, with 10 ranks for each knighthood. Each rank requires someone higher up on the food chain to award it, and I know ranks 1-2 or 1-4 can be awarded on the local level. After that, you have to go to larger events to attain higher ranks.

People in the less populated amptgard areas are not "shafted."
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Izareth 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Now, who would be "up the food chain" in Belegarth?

I'm not shooting holes in the budding system, just posing the question.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Savetuba 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Big Jimmy wrote:
People in the less populated amptgard areas are not "shafted."

true, but with the proposed council creation of 3 most qualified people for the WC to vote on, the small isolated groups will be shafted.

Also this extra _title_ system will not be an accepted idea here with the majority of people on this board being pure fighters.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
this is one of those situations that drive me crazy( not angry, but like head scratching crazy). How do we recognize those that work hard to help out but don't fight. We have such a focus about fighters, that others get lost in the shuffle. I would support a system of _title_s, trials too to prove your worth.

think of it, you want to be a chef master general. You have to cook all the feasts for a years worth of events( or maybe just 5 events to make it simple), after proving that you are of a great ability, you go through a ceromony and bammo you got it.


I would say that the best thing to do is make it really hard to get. that way it will lend credibility to the _title_. We all know knights that get less respect cause they did just the minimum to get in. Truely challenge them to go beyond anything an average person would do, or even a crazy person like me will do.

that is the key to a systems like this is to make it really hard. This way we won't have anybody questioning the validity.

my .02 ymmv
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Izareth wrote:
Now, who would be "up the food chain" in Belegarth?

At first, we would definitely need to systemize this with a "Squiring to the Sport" set-up. WC sets the standards and trials, people work to earn them, WC votes and awards/denies at an event. Then, once there is a core group, the "Knights Council" or whatevertheheck we choose to name it would be able to operate more independently.


Here's a thought that I had for the issue of _title_ division: we establish a system similar to SCA and Amtgard where we have several character-neutral 'Orders' to achieve _title_s. This keeps the localized knighting systems (Knight vs. Kinsmen vs. Mekoot) intact while still offering a higher _title_ to be earned. Example: "Order of the Sword" would be awarded for combat prowess, "Order of the Shield" for support/admin, etc. Within that, we could set up a simple three- or four-tier system. "Order of the Sword, 3rd Class" would have completed difficult trials, but it would take even more formidable skills/achievements to achieve "Order of the Sword, 2nd Class" or "Order of the Sword, 1st Class." With enough work, it would be feasible to achieve multiple ranks in multiple orders.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Izareth 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
I think it would be best to make it an award and not a _title_. Reason being, understanding what type of person may have earned an award for duties served is easier achieved than understanding what it takes to be a Knight/Warlord/Mekoot/etc.

The award would indicate duties served and influence noticed, but not necessarily bequeath a _title_.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Kyrian 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Big Jimmy wrote:
Amptguard has a rank system, with 10 ranks for each knighthood. Each rank requires someone higher up on the food chain to award it, and I know ranks 1-2 or 1-4 can be awarded on the local level. After that, you have to go to larger events to attain higher ranks.

People in the less populated amptgard areas are not "shafted."

Has this changed recently? I recall awards such as "Orders of the Warrior" and a few others that have ten rankings but not knighthood. From what I remember, knighthoods are awarded by the kingdom monarchs although some may choose to consult with their circle of knights, i.e., the group of knights in the kingdom. I recall that there are some classes in Amtgard that you can only play if you're a knight (paladin, anti-paladin) and to go up in levels, you have to play that class for a certain number of battlegames.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Kyrian 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Savetuba wrote:
Big Jimmy wrote:
People in the less populated amptgard areas are not "shafted."

true, but with the proposed council creation of 3 most qualified people for the WC to vote on, the small isolated groups will be shafted.

Also this extra _title_ system will not be an accepted idea here with the majority of people on this board being pure fighters.

I really should have clarified that this was the way I forsee the process starting. As Bo had mentioned earlier, these awards/_title_s will carry no weight unless people know how difficult they were to attain. We have to start somewhere and I figured we could start out with current members of Belegarth who are recognized as being exemplars (sorry, Bo, for using your word :) ) in their chosen field. From there, the process could be expanded to identify and mentor those seeking to reach that level, not just in large recognized realms. Perhaps having 3 people chosen nationally from each category is not the best way to do this part of the process. I'm open to any ideas.

The way I see it, we have three options:

1) Leave everything the way it is. This isn't really an option to me.
2) Change people's perceptions of knighthood to be about excellence in any field, both combat and non-combat. Considering some of the opinions already stated, how feasible is that?
3) Develop a different path or system that acknowledges that non-combat achievements are just as valued as combat ones.

At some point, I could see this trickling down to being managed at a realm level but I thought, and perhaps my reasoning is flawed, that it needs to start at a national level in order for these awards/_title_s to carry any weight.

Post edited by: Kyrian, at: 2007/10/16 13:53

Post edited by: Kyrian, at: 2007/10/16 13:55
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
i like the orders idea alot.

order of the sword, combat and event running

order of the shield, administration/ realm level or national level/wc reps and officers

order of the crown, garb and medieval sciences, with feasts, brewing, jewelery ect ect.


i see these three as the main areas that we need to recognize. most thing fall in to these catagories.

The sword is for events, weapon check, heralding, clean up, organizing, ect ect. Basically running a armegoddon like i did would be a 3rd class rating. I would have to run 2 events like that to achieve the 4th class. One day events would get you a 1 st class rank, change it how you would like these are only my thoughts.

the shield is for realm and belegarth service. Basically you help rule the game we play. You are the WC rep for your realm. Help right and introduce revisions to rules and such. Basically being an officer would get you 3. You would have to have significant input on a number of things to get higher than that. Sarting a realm would also be a 1 having it get speaking and voting rights would be a 2. getting on the officer level would be a 3. to get a 4 you would have to be active on many levels of the admin level. Board admins should be like a 2.


The crown would be Feasts, medieval sciences, and medieval flare at events. Basically when Kayle and i start making Yurts it would get us a class 3 rank. class 4 would be getting an entire camp of them with a full medival feel. No mundane at all would be worthy of a 4.


These are just numbers i am throwing out here. this lists needs lots of revision. i just threw numbers out off the top of my head to get something down to pick apart and make better. adjust how you feel neccessary or throw it all out.

i would like to see this inplace sooner than later. there are several people that i can think of that deserve some more recognition.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Kyrian wrote:
The way I see it, we have three options:

1) Leave everything the way it is. This isn't really an option to me.

2) Change people's perceptions of knighthood to be about excellence in any field, both combat and non-combat. Considering some of the opinions already stated, how feasible is that?

3) Develop a different path or system that acknowledges that non-combat achievements are just as valued as combat ones.

Ideally we'd go for 2. But it is true that most Knightings as percieved by the sport do not emphasize garb, arts and sciences, characterization, or many other equally necessary qualities or components. Developing a system of _title_s similar to 3 is at this point the best option for a goal like this, especially if we can structure it well.


Expanding on your point, Bo, maybe the categories should be less encompassing but with harder requirements. It is, for example, a very different type of hard work to help run an event than it is to train for field combat; making "Order of the Sword" encompass both would do injustice to the two.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
I worded it wierd sorry. i meant...


i thought we were still having knights as they are now. So a on field combat would be Knight as is.

Order of the sword is for noncombat field work. meaning running an event, running weapon check, heralding, setting up heralding classes and checking classes, thes etypes of things. i was tryting to get noncombatants, Knights are still the rulers( well kinda) of the field, along with mekoots.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Kyrian 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
bomatic wrote:
I worded it wierd sorry. i meant...


i thought we were still having knights as they are now. So a on field combat would be Knight as is.

Order of the sword is for noncombat field work. meaning running an event, running weapon check, heralding, setting up heralding classes and checking classes, thes etypes of things. i was tryting to get noncombatants, Knights are still the rulers( well kinda) of the field, along with mekoots.

If you look at knighthood, etc., they're _title_s available to people who fight. Bottom line, you can't receive one of these _title_s without fighting. Also, these _title_s/awards/whatever you want to call them are essentially administered by individuals, realms, and units. That really only leaves the national organization to go with.

The system of knighthood in Belegarth is firmly entrenched and I don't see it changing anytime soon, as much as I personally would like it to. Having actually been able to participate in the Amtgard system of separate types of knights, I had an opportunity to see how it constantly raised the bar.

Post edited by: Kyrian, at: 2007/10/16 15:38
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
bomatic wrote:
I worded it wierd sorry. i meant...


i thought we were still having knights as they are now. So a on field combat would be Knight as is.

Order of the sword is for noncombat field work. meaning running an event, running weapon check, heralding, setting up heralding classes and checking classes, thes etypes of things. i was tryting to get noncombatants, Knights are still the rulers( well kinda) of the field, along with mekoots.

Oh, ok. Misunderstanding. I had calculated into my bit that there would eventually be a national-level category for combat recognition. 'Order of the Spear' or somesuch for event admin/heralding/weapons check with 'Order of the Sword' being for field combat, or whatever class names we give them. I would assume that at some level the categories would require crossover (ie. Along with all fighting requirements, you must ALSO show firm understanding/knowledge the BoW, have X amount of heralding experience, run at least XYZ weapons checks, wear consistently good quality garb on the field, etc.), but in general if we offer more specialization it gives people more to pursue within their given path(s).
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Izareth 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
I think that for simplicity and respect, an established award or series of awards would be simpler to institute than a _title_.

A good example of how Knighthood can be done uniformally is Numinor. I haven't always seen eye to eye with all Numinoreans, but I cannot deny that most of their knights have my respect.

I think in-depth character _title_s like this might be doomed to be realm-_base_d. A national council would have a hard time accurately determining a person's contributions to those around them all year round.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Izareth 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
As Kyrian mentioned in his first post, the idea here is not to create a uniform system of National standards for knights, but some sort of recognition because knighthood is recognized differently realm to realm.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
I agree. I do not want to see the hard work of those who have been trying to achieve _title_s be squandered.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Satanaka 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Hmmmm.... I like the goal of this. I am less tackful but I mean no disrespect- I think this can back fire and cause some problems and resentment . We have an awful lot of "good ol boys" stuff already. Seems this could become a "popularity" thing- that warps the actual goal.

I do like "awards" better than _title_s. BUT- even then- when I see someone: "awarded"- I look at the person giving and how close the relation to the awarded is.

We have seen this happen in WC, Officers, Units, and certain '_title_s' in game.

But- I do like the idea and the goal to somehow thank those that have served and continue to serve and the ones that have help form the foundations that IS the game we all love and enjoy.

If we do find a way that fits what we want to do- I'd be glad to volunteer to help.

Satanaka
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bodhi 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
I like the idea of having an award system given out perhaps at several of the national events that must include Chaos Wars so that way there can be someone recognized in both parts of the country. This award should be on a year to year basis that fluxuates criteria (acknowleding contrabution perhaps beyond just fighting).

So to sum up: A yearly award that acknowledges excellent effort but for the most part does not carry any weight...kind of like the grammy's.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Physic 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Why not have separate realm and national _title_s for people. The national one being an upgraded more focused version of the realm _title_. You can have a realm _title_ for art, service, and combat, that would be decided by the realms rules. The national _title_ could be very focused on very specific traits that each one of those should posses. It would be much harder and take much longer. Example would be a Knight national _title_ would require them to display extraordinary talent in leadership, prowess, teaching, and chivalry. This _title_ would be very difficult and could take at least 3-5 years to achieve if ever. Knighthood in SCA generally takes 5-10 years.

For someone to achieve this it would be voted on by current realm _title_ holders. It could be decided in the future to allow voting from only national _title_ holders. There is a lot more details that could be added to this system but I believe that achieving an extremely hard _title_ is something that would really help evolve our game to the next level.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Kyrian 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
physic wrote:
Why not have separate realm and national _title_s for people. The national one being an upgraded more focused version of the realm _title_. You can have a realm _title_ for art, service, and combat, that would be decided by the realms rules. The national _title_ could be very focused on very specific traits that each one of those should posses. It would be much harder and take much longer. Example would be a Knight national _title_ would require them to display extraordinary talent in leadership, prowess, teaching, and chivalry. This _title_ would be very difficult and could take at least 3-5 years to achieve if ever. Knighthood in SCA generally takes 5-10 years.

For someone to achieve this it would be voted on by current realm _title_ holders. It could be decided in the future to allow voting from only national _title_ holders. There is a lot more details that could be added to this system but I believe that achieving an extremely hard _title_ is something that would really help evolve our game to the next level.

I really like this idea but, as Savetuba has mentioned before, do you have any ideas on how to make sure our smaller realms don't get left out of consideration?
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Rowan 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Physic's suggestion seems reasonable. I think it would make sense if people would not be eligible for national recognition until they had attained realm recognition, or at least been nominated by their realm.

Very roughly, I would see the process proceeding as follows:

1) Nomination (requiring majority vote) by the Home Realm (possibly putting a cap on the number of persons a realm can recognize in a given period [ie one person every two years])
2) Sponsorship to recognizing body (possibly by members of said body or representatives of voting/speaking realms) which accepts or rejects the application (hopefully _base_d on proscribed requirements [ie time in sport, service as realm or national leader, etc.] rather than on personal opinion)
3) Whatever trials/tasks/duties are prescribed by that body (taking previous accomplishments and services of the individual into consideration)
4) National Recognition (with proper pomp and ceremony [I hope it involves a party])

That's my 2¢.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Physic 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Kyrian wrote:


I really like this idea but, as Savetuba has mentioned before, do you have any ideas on how to make sure our smaller realms don't get left out of consideration?


At a national level you would have to be know nationally by people. That means you would have to attend events and make a big impression on people. Which I believe should be a requirement. You should really stand out to everyone to achieve this.

This would still allow small realms to have knights. If a person from a smaller realm wanted national attention it may be more difficult for them but not impossible.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Cedric 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
Doesn't work, since the moajority of people go to regional event. Many easterners don't go to chaos wars, many westerns dont go to any eastern events. Smaller realms and people who dont want to travel 1500 miles every year would be left out, unless their smaller realm was in the center of Belegarth.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
I agree with Cedric. As much as they may want to, most fighers cannot afford the time and/or money to make repeated semi-annual trips across country for events. Curse us and our relative level of semi-successful expansion of the sport. ;)

This would definitely have to be _base_d solely on a requirement/achievement system. It's the only fair way to assure that everyone gets equal treatment in the process, and it's also the only way to minimize the risk of 'good old boy' awardings. If it is kept as an awarded _title_ instead of a _title_ as it is currently understood, it wouldn't conflict with realm and unit-_base_d knightings.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 2 Weeks ago
i am all for a fair system, but seriously to think we can have an unbiased systems for our group when the government cannot with a trillion dollar budget is foolish. I would love it to be fair to everyone, but if that means that we cannot get anything done then not only is it unfair to the potentially shafted, but also to those who would get a fair shake.

I grow wary of the constant must be fair systems, when in the end nothing gets done.

I don't want to require people to travel 1500 miles a year to be able to get the _title_ they want, but everyone in the Sca has to to be anyhting. They have no shortage of members trying to get _title_s. Sometimes if you really want something you have to make sacrifices, like time and money. This is what this is about, those that go above and beyond the normal participation, right?

Besides i think anyone worth a lick gets to either chaos, Sw, Fest, BEltain, arm, Eq, or maybe melcorme. If you don't attend one of these a year you really don't go to many events, save for Rag, but that is a different sport. I realize there are alot of fun events out there, i am not crapping on them, but i think it is widely accepted that these are the big ones. I have 2 a year in madison, one day mini's, people that only make it to these are not event goers by me.

I think it is great to start to recognize those that truely put forth alot of effort to attend events, and they should be rewarded when they do. If you go to chaos but not Eastern events, great, i still think you should be considered for the _title_, just like of you only go to Beltaine, or fest, or any of the other big events. Those that make most of these events should get extra consideration, cause they put forth the effort to go to events.

just my opinion, rip me apart if you wish

bo
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Physic 2 Months, 1 Week ago
Cedric wrote:
Doesn't work, since the moajority of people go to regional event. Many easterners don't go to chaos wars, many westerns dont go to any eastern events. Smaller realms and people who dont want to travel 1500 miles every year would be left out, unless their smaller realm was in the center of Belegarth.

It works its only a matter of details. It would have to be decided what is required to attain this _title_. Maybe it means that you to have to travel east or west to acheive it. Maybe it doesnt. If a person wants it bad enough they will do what it takes. Remember this isnt supposed to be easy.


If SCA and Amtgard can establish this there is nothing stopping us from hammering out what needs to be done then doing it.

Post edited by: physic, at: 2007/10/22 23:15
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Cedric 2 Months, 1 Week ago
Bo, you only included 1 western event, chaos, in you list of events. The west has events almost every other weekend theroughout the year, you canot expect people to travel to all the eastern events to be recognized by YOU, when they are already well known, respected, and deserving in the west. You guys are thinking nationaly, when SCA, and Amtgard do things regionally. Officers/kings of each region are the ones who give out the awards, not a national leader, or officer group. In the SCA, if I recieve my knighthood in Artemisia, it is good in any kingdom or region I go to. A national system that is divided by regional representaion is the most fair way to do this. BTW ebonhold just held its crown wars and and held court and handed out service awards, and has been doing so for a while now. We have already implemented various orders and awards for different stuff, so this can work in our sport.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by mikaiyawa 2 Months, 1 Week ago
rather than "knighthood' for the non fighters maybe call them Master/Mistress? As in a combat knight who makes great armor being Sir So-in-so Master Armorer? Or an artisan who doesn't fight being a Master Weapon-smith or some such?

things would still vary a bit from group to group I suspect. the SCA calls it's Laurels (arts people) Master/Mistress, so it might be something you could just snitch and adapt.

Mieka
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 1 Week ago
i did not mean to leave out western events, i was trying to get a list of big events around the country. Go ahead and include the 5 big western events in the list.

Maybe a regional system is better than a national system, although it is a loftier goal to have a national system.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 1 Week ago
bomatic wrote:
i am all for a fair system, but seriously to think we can have an unbiased systems for our group when the government cannot with a trillion dollar budget is foolish. I would love it to be fair to everyone, but if that means that we cannot get anything done then not only is it unfair to the potentially shafted, but also to those who would get a fair shake.

I grow wary of the constant must be fair systems, when in the end nothing gets done.

I think that's a little bit of an unfair comparison. But I see your point. At this point, however, the 'fairness' would be generated by the set of rules, and not by any 'affirmitive-action knightings' that are handed out. Part of the disfunction of the government comes from the fact that (approval or disapproval of this notwithstanding) they try to make sure everyone gets 'equal treatment,' which ends up translating to different things for each group that take up large amounts of time and resources to guarantee. For us, since everyone would be on relatively the same page, a blanket set of 'you must do XYZ' requirements would achieve that end more effectively.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 1 Week ago
i agree but if you set xyz to be attending events then the argument is in full circle. That is my point, if you want to be an event feast master, you have to go to events on both sides of the country and earn respect from everybody. Then people will say things like i have made hundreds of feasts for the west i have no money to go east, thats unfair. or i go to SW and beltain every year and cook, now i have to go to chaos to finish my trials/whatever. Same result.

I don't want people to have to live the game, at the expence of all else, but making yourself known to the community is part of the process of earning respect.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 1 Week ago
Good point. In theory, it is a good idea for people to attend out-of-region events.

But in practicality, is it reasonable for us to require it? It costs a large amount to travel +1000 to an event, not to mention 1) transporting all the equipment/supplies needed for the given vocation, 2) transporting the rest of his/her general eventing gear, AND 3) the gear and supplies of any helpers or family members that might need to make the trip. Also, what if we expand our international _base_? Would we require the guys in Denmark to fly over here to get approved? Or the group in South America? Or Australia? And if we did, wouldn't we, out of equality, need to fly there to do the same?

Perhaps this issue should reach a compromise: in the event that a candidate for a _title_ can not for whatever reason personally attend an out-of-region event, the individual submits a detailed application and record of all of the tasks undertaken to earn the _title_ to the other region's major governing body (ie. Chaos WC to Eastern WC, and vice-versa) with a letter of recommendation from his/her governing body as to whether or not they approve or deny the awarding of the _title_. If the other group cannot meet the candidate, they at least have the option of approving or denying the _title_.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 1 Week ago
this does not require everybody to attend out of region events, only those, who by definition, want to expand beyond the normal participation. Don't have the money or time off for a O.R.E., then you can still be a member of belegarth, but it will be harder for you to gain the _title_s listed in these posts. thats all, the way people are talking its like i want to require everybody in the sport to go east or west. I also don't have a problem with people giving out there own awards and _title_s for service, it just is not part of the national _title_ system. If it works for you fine, i support all groups having there own systems of honor for their members.

To repeat This is about a national _title_ system for exceptional members, not a system to make sure we honor every member we have( which we should have too, another post) no matter what their level of involvement. Key word "Exceptional". Lets try to raise the bar not set it low enough so everybody can jump over. It is the nature of things that some can and some cannot, and in this case some chose to some choose to not. The same people that will say i don't have the money, show up at a local event with 100$ worth of booze and 2 cartons of smokes. It is fine to make those choices, i don't mind, just know that if you wanted to make sacrifices, you could. I am sure that there are people that truely could not do it, but not very many.
Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Satanaka 2 Months, 1 Week ago
hmmmmm..... Does anyone think that by trying to "Nationalize" something that it will also weaken as well as take some of the uniqueness away?

Also- One of the problems I have had with a "National" Knighting- is that many that I see that would be making the vote or choice- I do not see as a Knight or that they earned or deserve the _title_.

(and I am sure that some feel the same- with me and against me)

I also do not like the way that our group seems to slip more into a popularity contest or the mentality of certain groups that will always favor their own. (look at WC)

So- in short- I do not think this is such a good idea in actual reality. Good idea in theory BUT in our group- I just don't see it working or being true.

"... All ____________ (insert any _title_) are not created the same..."

Sorry to sound negative.

Satanaka
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Ora 2 Months, 1 Week ago
IMO establishing definitions of _title_s is the first place to begin. If you're going to set standards for people to earn _title_s then they'll need to know exactly what their _title_ means. To start, I'd really love to hear the definition of what a knight is in this game; Not how its achieved, but the definition. If a common definition cannot be made (not just for knight) and agreed upon then its impossible to have a "national" _title_ for anything. Once definitions are established and agreed upon then how they are reached can be established.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 1 Week ago
that is a great idea. i am not a good definition guy however, so i let the masters have at it.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 1 Week ago
Wait... this is still an award-_base_d _title_, right? At least, that was the idea we were discussing from the beginning. The balance we were trying to strike was the creation of an award for exemplary skill in XYZ area while not usurping or dismantling the current knighting system.

So if we are creating the awards as they have been discussed, the _title_ would be conveyed by the award, not by it's own power. It wouldn't be a knighting, because the award would have to be granted by WC or by a panel, and not through a realm or lineage. Or did that change?

I'm a little confused now.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by SirMadog 2 Months, 1 Week ago
Ora wrote:
IMO establishing definitions of _title_s is the first place to begin. If you're going to set standards for people to earn _title_s then they'll need to know exactly what their _title_ means. To start, I'd really love to hear the definition of what a knight is in this game; Not how its achieved, but the definition. If a common definition cannot be made (not just for knight) and agreed upon then its impossible to have a "national" _title_ for anything. Once definitions are established and agreed upon then how they are reached can be established.

I think what we are trying to define here is not a Knight, but a "National Belegarth Knight"

I would start off by possibly defining a National Belegarth Knight is someone who has obtained the _title_ of "Knight" from 2 voting realms that are in different states or provinces.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Cedric 2 Months, 1 Week ago
so if you are going for a national _title_ Bo, are you comming out west for your recognition. I think your missing the point thatmost people dont travel both ways, with a few exeptions. I am assuming(and thats bad) that you would expect every person trying to gain a _title_ to traverse out west as well. Now where is that coffee!
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by Elebrim 2 Months, 1 Week ago
SirMadog
I would start off by possibly defining a National Belegarth Knight is someone who has obtained the _title_ of "Knight" from 2 voting realms that are in different states or provinces.

What about unit-_base_d knightings? Do Mekoots or Kinsmen count? Or do they strictly have to be "Knight of the realms of _____ and _____"?

Still liking the idea of _title_-awards as compared to "National Knighting." If we model it as a "This person is such a fantastic contributor to the sport in this category that they have done all this: XYZABC" system as compared to a "This person is a Knight as recognized/approved/voted by the WC (or whatever group is decided to award the Knighting)" system, we avoid the drama that is sometimes associated with 'questionable' knightings on the unit/realm level while still having a quality _title_ that people actually will want to work toward earning.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by bomatic 2 Months, 1 Week ago
cedric, i would expect someone who was trying for a _title_ to travel to the west as well as tennesee. I have made several plans to go south and west, sadly i have been pinned by work on several occasions. I will be planning on going to rag next year as my big vacation, so if i go west it will be a short 3 or 4 day trip. I have made it as far west as iowa and as far east as ohio. i have never been to tennesee yet but that will be fixed as soon as i can.

it is paramount that we have people see the whole sport not just their little neck of the woods. I have had several newbs come to events and come home way more involved and dedicated to the sport. it is great to have someone fight at practices for 2 years and do nothing, then they go to an event and come home make weapons and garb and get really involved.
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Re:National Recognition/Title System
by SirMadog 2 Months, 1 Week ago
Elebrim wrote:

What about unit-_base_d knightings? Do Mekoots or Kinsmen count? Or do they strictly have to be "Knight of the realms of _____ and _____"?



Your not going to like what I have to say about this one.

Because only speaking and voting realms are recognized and there are specific rules for them in our bylaws by Belegarth(article 15 if your want to go look them up) it would be impossible to recognize any other organization other than Voting or Speaking realms as being Organized or official in the scope of Belegarth. Thus the statement, The only way you are going to be able for Kinsman & Mekoots to count is to make units follow some uniform national standard and report to the secretary of Belegarth. A level of organization I don't think any sword sport has ever taken on. As is per that definition we run into a quagmire of irresponsible or inconsistant realm standards regarding Knights, i.e. compare Avalon knights to Numenor Knights, while most on war council would praise and applaud both orders, they are completely different in requirements and in standards.

My earlier definition requires great responsibility to the voting realms. Since any pair of smaller realms could just band together and start pumping out National Knights like their was no tomorrow. Not to mention I dare believe many Knights would find being a Knight of realm A and realm B to be a conflict of interest, what does it say in the bible, a servant can not serve two masters he will either love one more than the other or hat

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:28 pm 
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I think that a change is needed, and there is a lot of good information coming together. I would suggest that before any type of groups are set up, that regions need to be addressed. The whole country should be divided up into regions in order to make all of the parts smaller and easier to handle. Once that is put together, the leaders of those regions can talk with their people, and we can try to put together something everyone can compromise on and work with. It can be one group, several groups, whatever. I think the awards/titles/etc. might be better off given at local levels with national acceptance. Then, say, once a year, or once every two years, whatever, that the national leaders talk with the regional leaders and see if anyone meets the national list, becoming a "Grand..." something. I think the first step is coming up with the foundation of a system so it can function before the specifics are hammered out. Maybe all the voting realms can become the lead realm of the region in the beginning, just to make setting the system up easier... just my two cents...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:56 pm 
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Wow, I don't know how this got it's own forum but here it is.

It should be noted that the huge block of quote that Madog has posted really doesn't have much of anything to do with where the discussion on guilds currently stands. While the above focuses on how to change knighting (something that noone wants) we have moved on to how to form a guild system which both assists new people and gives recognition for the accomplishments of the old hands.

From what has been discussed so far, we have roughed out guild requirements for Armoring, Weapon Smithing, and Cooking. I would like to point out that what we have is still subject to massive change and all of this is only a work in progress.

We would like to continue to expand guild ideas and I'm currently trying to come up with similar measures for Bardic and sewing/garb guilds among others. If you have a suggestion for a different guild then please make it.

Shaelyn, your idea is a good one, and is already in progress. The guild program has gone from being nationally focused to realm focused.

What do we need? We need help. I've been trying to lead this effort, but too often I get people telling me how it won't work rather than offering assistance. We need people with experience in the areas the guilds meant to promote. Who is that? Tailors/Seamstresses, Cooks, Musicians, Dancers, Event Coordinators, etc. If you have experience in an area that a guild covers then please offer your advice. What skills are critical to what it is you do? What skills would be easy for a new person to learn and which ones are highly technical and complex?

More information which highlights the basics of what has come out of our work thus far can be found here.[/url]

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