Belegarth

I really like that Idea about doing it the Hybrid way. I say we do it that way, It's cheap, effective, and if you make a tabberd just for the medic guild and if you wanna have a few drinks, you just take it off.

So now what? we are using the GSL to cover out butts to help the ind that is hurt along with asking them if they want help. Now what? we have the lvl situation delt with within the guild. so where do we go from here

Freki wrote:so where do we go from here

I would draft a proposal with all the important information from this thread and have someone submit it to the war council for discussion on if it's something they want done in Belegarth or not. If you want input/help getting all the important information together, let me know.

That would be most helpful. PMed

Freki wrote:That would be most helpful. PMed

I'll try to get it done tonight and sent over to you.

~Þ~

you sir are teh awesome sauce

Part of the GSL wrote:Members must not be paid, must not expect pay, and cannot act outside reasonable common sense.

I think this means members cannot be granted a discount on event fees/etc as well. I'm going to put that into the proposal...


Proposal has been PMed to you since your email came back unknown.

Thank you for the quick reply. it looks very good and PMed back to you as well along with my email again..afghan internet is kinda odd at times...

UPDATE to Medic Guild

ALCON,

The purposal has been brought to the WC for review and discussion. You can thank Thorondor for putting the purposal together for us. I will keep everyone posted on what is going on in the WC thread or you can follow along with this link http://board.belegarth.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=35477

Looks good. I'm looking forward to this moving ahead.

What would we need to provide as proof of training/certifications to get a ranking?

BTW, I'm assuming that basic first aid/CPR training would qualify as an EMR based on this list. Is that correct?

I apologize if I missed that discussion in the thread so far.

Æthelric wrote:Looks good. I'm looking forward to this moving ahead.

What would we need to provide as proof of training/certifications to get a ranking?

BTW, I'm assuming that basic first aid/CPR training would qualify as an EMR based on this list. Is that correct?

I apologize if I missed that discussion in the thread so far.

As for proof of certification, I know of a website that was started, but needs to be revamped. We are currently working on getting a new one up as a collective database for all members credentials / certificates.

As for the First Responders, they are ind that have been through the Red cross First air class...CRP and BLS (basic live saving skills) classes...no more than 6 to 8 Hrs. It's all good if you missed it though, no worries. If you have any more questions fell free to PM me or just ask away on here.

Freki wrote:

Æthelric wrote:Looks good. I'm looking forward to this moving ahead.

What would we need to provide as proof of training/certifications to get a ranking?

BTW, I'm assuming that basic first aid/CPR training would qualify as an EMR based on this list. Is that correct?

I apologize if I missed that discussion in the thread so far.

As for proof of certification, I know of a website that was started, but needs to be revamped. We are currently working on getting a new one up as a collective database for all members credentials / certificates.

As for the First Responders, they are ind that have been through the Red cross First air class...CRP and BLS (basic live saving skills) classes...no more than 6 to 8 Hrs. It's all good if you missed it though, no worries. If you have any more questions fell free to PM me or just ask away on here.

OK, thanks for the clarification.

I've been through a first aid/CPR class (I have a card certifying it, too), but would be perfectly OK with going through another one just to make sure the certification is standardized with everyone else in the guild. I could probably use a refresher, anyway.

Just let me know what to submit for verification, and where.

Some one said something about sewing something on your garb:
If you are OK with being on call ALL event go right ahead, but I will say that I think it is a really bad Idea. I think the simple tabard or vest is an easy way to go, and if you wanna spiff it up be my guest. just make sure it was the markings that we have loosely agreed on thus far.

Someone said something about discount on event:
That would be considered pay, so would anything that you get more then any other eventer; such as room or super feast (you get the picture I hope)

Someone said something about proof of certification:
I'll start maintaining a database. Just send any request to get into the guild here: Shcriby@gmail.com
put this in the message
(fighting name)
(mundane name)
(state or area of operation[where you fight/go to events])
attach to the email
(photocopy of certifications and/or licenses)
(photocopy of driver's license)
(put in color for those who just are skimming this pile of awesome)

This way I will be able to tell who we have, if their certifications and/or licenses are still good, and what rank they'd be.

Thanks for putting the proposal up there. To be honest it looks great, but I dunno if all of those forms are necessary. What was the thought process on those?

The bigger form w/ medical history would be beneficial if something does happen and we need to take the fighter to the hospital. We would have all of their medications, etc with us to give to the hospital. I remember one event that the person ended up with alcohol poisoning and was taken to the hospital. They were in NO shape to give any medical information so having something like the first form would have been extremely helpful for the hospital.

As for the declination form, that is for additional protection of the members of the guild. Lets say your finger is dislocated and at a 90 degree angle from your hand...medic gets there and says "i'm a medic, do you want me to fix your finger?" You say no, i'll do it myself and then pop it back into joint. We'd want you to sign off on the medical declination form because if you did something wrong it wouldn't be blamed on the medic.

That's my feelings on the two forms. The first one might take a little bit of time to fill in for someone in my situation (I have Cystic Fibrosis) but for the normal person that fights they might need to spend an extra 2-3 minutes filling in the medical information.

~Þ~

Thorondor wrote:The bigger form w/ medical history would be beneficial if something does happen and we need to take the fighter to the hospital. We would have all of their medications, etc with us to give to the hospital. I remember one event that the person ended up with alcohol poisoning and was taken to the hospital. They were in NO shape to give any medical information so having something like the first form would have been extremely helpful for the hospital.

I see your point and I agree that we need to take into consideration, but we should also make sure that his doesn't get out of control.

Thorondor wrote:As for the declination form, that is for additional protection of the members of the guild. Lets say your finger is dislocated and at a 90 degree angle from your hand...medic gets there and says "i'm a medic, do you want me to fix your finger?" You say no, i'll do it myself and then pop it back into joint. We'd want you to sign off on the medical declination form because if you did something wrong it wouldn't be blamed on the medic.

I disagree with this on the basis of the fact that under the GSL we are bystanders. We are not in charge of their health. If they pop their finger back and later they feel the reprocutions, it will still not be our fault for not giving them proper care. We just happened to be by them. This is why I feel that the declination form is too much.

Also I think there are a few thing we should clean up in the purposed charter, nothing big or monumental, just things that would make things more clear and understandable. brb to work on that.

Tails wrote:

Thorondor wrote:As for the declination form, that is for additional protection of the members of the guild. Lets say your finger is dislocated and at a 90 degree angle from your hand...medic gets there and says "i'm a medic, do you want me to fix your finger?" You say no, i'll do it myself and then pop it back into joint. We'd want you to sign off on the medical declination form because if you did something wrong it wouldn't be blamed on the medic.

I disagree with this on the basis of the fact that under the GSL we are bystanders. We are not in charge of their health. If they pop their finger back and later they feel the reprocutions, it will still not be our fault for not giving them proper care. We just happened to be by them. This is why I feel that the declination form is too much.

True, where were you yesterday! I guess the declination form isn't really needed since we're operating under GSL...

It's why I think we should cut out all of the forms all together. But at the same time people do have serious medical conditions and it certainly is hard to get good info from them when they are intoxicated.

Tails wrote:It's why I think we should cut out all of the forms all together. But at the same time people do have serious medical conditions and it certainly is hard to get good info from them when they are intoxicated.

I'm gonna steal this and put it in the BMCS medic thread...if you don't mind tails

I'mm gonna ask you to make a couple edits in a while to your original post if ya don't mind

No prob, just let me know where at and what to take away / edit and I will do it up right.

"Marking:
Belegarth Medical Guild members should be marked by a Red Cross flag belt, which also states their level of qualification marked in superscript (ex. +1, +2, +3, +4).

Medic Level 1: Red Cross Professional Rescue training. Includes First aid AED/CPR.

Medic Level 2: EMT-B, Emergency responder, LPN. Have basic first aid, First Responder, and AED training through a recognized program, with the appropriate certificate of participation and completion stating such.

Medic Level 3: EMT-I/85, EMT-I/99, RN. Must have advanced medical training in responding to trauma and medical emergencies.

Medic Level 4: BSN, Medical Doctor, EMT-P (Paramedic)"
please change this for starters, and let me know if you want me to explain any of these changes

also

"Protecting ourselves: The bystander laws of whatever state in which we are operating in. (ex. GSL, Duty to act, Etc)"

done and done, let me know if anymore changes need to be made.

Æthelric wrote:I think that any medical data collected should be very simple and straightforward, and all of them should be voluntarily disclosed, like this:

• Do you have any life-threatening allergies that you wish to inform (Medics Guild/Event Organizers/etc.) about?
  
• Do you have any serious medical conditions (such as one that an EMT would need to know about if one were called) that you wish to inform [Medics Guild/Event Organizers/etc.] about?

I don't really see a need for getting more information that something like that, though, and I think it would be best if we made it clear that they don't have to answer if they don't want to.

QFT

this is how I feel, what a boot you guys?

Makes sense to me. I would leave it at "allergies" instead of life-threatening allergies though. I have a 3 drug allergies and 2 of them aren't life threatening, but I let medical people know about them because the reactions are rather unpleasant.

I definitely agree about making it clear that they don't need to respond if they don't want to. If you have bad allergies or serious medical conditions, normally you are used to filling out medical forms and, I for one, feel more comfortable if people know about my condition just in case something happens to me.

Thorondor wrote:Makes sense to me. I would leave it at "allergies" instead of life-threatening allergies though. I have a 3 drug allergies and 2 of them aren't life threatening, but I let medical people know about them because the reactions are rather unpleasant.

perfect, I like it.

I like that as well

well, looks like things have slowed down in WC. We should start skimming the pond scum off the top of our pool so we can start swimming.

I think right now we have three things to do right now.

1. file the business stuff down. (make sure that we can get a smooth professional looking charter down.)

2. Get members (or people generally supporters)

3. figure out this whole legal stuff.

Allright so I'm a newb to Belegarth but here's my two cents on this whole medic guild as I am an EMT and have done my share of volunteer fire fighting..........(If I repeat anything that's already been said I apologize, i read everything but I'm super tired).

A. You guys are good on looking at liability. Don't get caught up in the what ifs. Boil it down to the simplest form and work from there. I.E. it doesn't matter what the "medic's" level of training is because emt, paramedics, and nurses all work under the LICENSE of a physician CERTIFIED in that individual state or county. When they are not at work they are SIMPLY first responders/EMT-Basics. A Doctor isn't going to be able to do anything more but maybe, MAYBE diagnose something and even then if he isn't at work I guarantee you he isn't going to touch the diagnosis thing with a 10 foot pole arm. In short as stated earlier if you act in a safe reasonable manner you are probably okay. If you try to start an IV when a needle you have from work you're probably going find yourself in a lot of trouble.

B. The only thing we should be carrying is what is in a BASIC first aid kit that you can buy at the store. Oxygen, believe it or not, is classified as a medication. If they have certain conditions they need to be documented and the patient should be responsible for having their medications on hand. We can assist them in administering, but not giving.


C. The forms are a great idea but there is another form I think we need to impliment and that is our own version of a "run report". That way we can document what happened, what we saw, what they said, what we did. If they refuse treatment have them sign they don't want to go to the hospital or Against Medical Advice.


I like the idea of the guild I just want to make sure every T is crossed and I dotted before I go put my butt on the line. And lets be honest...The people who would sue are new players to the game , people we don't have rapport with, and people who feel we have acted irresponsibily.

A: You missed the point of a guild system.

B: This has been hashed out already

C:Also has been hashed out.

Thanks for your input. I'm glad someone still reads this ****. On the topic, we may or may not get insurance soon, so that would radically change the approach to this issue. I want this to happen, I really do. I'm waiting to see what happens as far as the issue of insurance is concerned.

Tails wrote:A: You missed the point of a guild system.

B: This has been hashed out already

C:Also has been hashed out.

Thanks for your input. I'm glad someone still reads this ****. On the topic, we may or may not get insurance soon, so that would radically change the approach to this issue. I want this to happen, I really do. I'm waiting to see what happens as far as the issue of insurance is concerned.

Well at least some people "try" to read this ****.

Thanks for picking this up guys

I still think NO ONE should be carrying scalpels or suture kits (or IV lines, or saline bags, or O2), even if you've spent 7 years as an army trauma surgeon and have now been working at your local ER as head of trauma.
I (an LPN) would defer to your experience and knowledge, but I don't think we should be sewing or cutting people up.
Someone stated earlier that most (if not all) of our event sites are near enough to a hospital for an ambulance ride and I agree (now someone may need to stand out by the road so the ambulance knows which dirt path to take, but hey at least it gets there)

I also think that for injuries more than a scrape we, as bystanders, recommend the injured person see a doctor, if not right away then after the event. this ankle is probably sprained, but I recommend you see a doctor and get it x-rayed. For now I'll wrap it with this sports wrap and you need to elevate it, ice it and try not to walk on it too much.

I like the tabard/tunic/garb/vest ideas better than an armband. A belt flag could be useful on the field if the person is also wearing a unit/kingdom tabard or tunic.

as for staffing at events perhaps a sign-up (like running troll)

my 'sounds like a broken record' 2c and a random idea or two

thanks again guys!

So now that it seems like this topic might get some more steam let me clarify some things that were mention and hit on via PM

megs wrote:I still think NO ONE should be carrying scalpels or suture kits (or IV lines, or saline bags, or O2), even if you've spent 7 years as an army trauma surgeon and have now been working at your local ER as head of trauma.

Right, nobody wants anyone operating on the field. At MOST I'd say splinting and getting someone to the hospital, is what we are shooting for. If this topic keeps coming up because of the "levels" thing that I'd like to implement, those are there for the sake of a guild system. (people with similar skill sets talking shop and sharing ideas)

megs wrote:I (an LPN) would defer to your experience and knowledge, but I don't think we should be sewing or cutting people up.
Someone stated earlier that most (if not all) of our event sites are near enough to a hospital for an ambulance ride and I agree (now someone may need to stand out by the road so the ambulance knows which dirt path to take, but hey at least it gets there)

Agreed see above. ^

megs wrote:I also think that for injuries more than a scrape we, as bystanders, recommend the injured person see a doctor, if not right away then after the event. this ankle is probably sprained, but I recommend you see a doctor and get it x-rayed. For now I'll wrap it with this sports wrap and you need to elevate it, ice it and try not to walk on it too much.

Agreed see above ^

megs wrote:I like the tabard/tunic/garb/vest ideas better than an armband. A belt flag could be useful on the field if the person is also wearing a unit/kingdom tabard or tunic. As for staffing at events perhaps a sign-up (like running troll)

Personally I like the vest idea, or the vest/beltflag combo. The reason for this is that then a person with the vest is the active medic (to be sober) and then someone with a belt flag is just a member. This allows someone to be "active" one night and then party the next.

Tails I like the idea of having a tabard and a belt flag to show who is and who is not on duty.... Sorry for not being on here as much as I used too, I made it back home in Jan and it's been balls to the wall ever sence due to a wedding and getting ready for beltaine this year. I have been skimming over the past posts and I will do my best to get a copy of my carts from the army soon as I get off leave.

I dont care if its nerco or not. I spent the last 20 minutes reading all of this and its a great idea. Im curious if its still in effect??
Because if so i'd go to a red cross CPR class sooner due to events and such (was planning on doing it this summer anyways).
Did this idea just die out or is it still in motion and full steam ahead?

Thanks!
Blitz

It's on hold. I have no intention on letting this die.

Any Idea of when this will pick back up?? im totally intrested in this.
Not yet quailfied, but soon hope to be in CPR.

I am sorry I was gone from the forum for a while, and I still want to be involved in this if we get it going. I just need to know if my Canadian Red Cross qualifications would stand legal at events in the U.S. Because if they do not, it will be frustrating for me to be a member of the Guild and not be able to do anything.

Blitz(IG) wrote:Any Idea of when this will pick back up?? im totally intrested in this.
Not yet quailfied, but soon hope to be in CPR.

TBA, really. But trust me, when I start this project back up you will know.

Okay there's like, a billion posts to read, and its 2am.

But I will say, as someone who is CPR/First Aid certified, if **** goes down, I want to know who else can help me.

So I'm sewing some basic Red Cross belt flags (mines a red Star of David cause I'm **** cool like that), and I will be handing them out to people who are likewise CPR/First Aid certified (please provide proof if I don't know you personally).

I don't think we need to get fancy with this stuff. It's just a beacon to help people identify those who can help.

I'll be at Okfest this year for (hopefully) Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I'm EMT-B certified, and would gladly take time to step out and help with basic injuries (e.g Bloody noses, shallows cuts, and so forth.) Maybe a sideline booth stocked with cheap first aid items such as OTC pain relief, allergy relief, disinfectant, and so forth?

Thurat wrote:I'll be at Okfest this year for (hopefully) Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I'm EMT-B certified, and would gladly take time to step out and help with basic injuries (e.g Bloody noses, shallows cuts, and so forth.) Maybe a sideline booth stocked with cheap first aid items such as OTC pain relief, allergy relief, disinfectant, and so forth?

Come find me.

MorganDrakeheart wrote:So I'm sewing some basic Red Cross belt flags

The only problem we've discussed about belt flags is that if someone has had a couple drinks, they are unfit to give medical care. It's not so much a huge issue, but I see people either forgetting or not caring to take them off when they are going to go party.

Count me in for basic medical aid at Okfest as well.

Myself as well, I will photo copy and e-mail you the certificates with in the next 4 days Tails...

I'm state certified (no nat'l certification yet) EMT-B; I carry my small card on me at all times. I'm willing to donate cash towards getting a well supplied med kit that can be kept with whomever is volunteering on the field. Basic med kit(?):

• medical tape
• Bandaids
• Gauze (various sizes)
• Neosporin
• Allergy relief tablets
• Small paper cups (eye injuries happen folks)
• Alcohol wipes (or idodine )
• A few small bottles of distilled water (for cleaning cuts and as an eye bath)
• Ibuprofen
• Tube of hydrocortisone (for skin related allergic reactions?)
• Glucose gel (disgusting, but hell, fighting drains your sugar, and I've seen diabetics go down puking on the field)

Maybe a simple first aid kit like this for any person volunteering time to carry in a satchel or * pack?

EDIT: Removed, edited, reposted some stuff below.

Just read through the WC thread on this again, and I want to throw in my 2c:

I think that we should do exactly what most persons in the thread were suggesting, and just make a guild. A simple red cross, with no level of credential indicator, for a removable belt flag or sash for when we wish to volunteer to help, and that's it. Every event that I've ever been to has an optional medical information section to it, so that's covered and no other paperwork is necessary, and each unit member who decides to carry a kit is responsible for it on their own level.

tl;dr Let's just be a unit. Hellhammer gets together to drink, Medics Guild staunches wounds. Units come and go, and no paper trail exists.

I think that this very loosely defined and regulated form of cohesion is our best bet. When there are 300 people on the field, you aren't going to be able to run to Troll and dig up their waiver, so paperwork like what we've suggested is just unnecessary, and waivers asking if it's ok for us to administer care acknowledges that we are trained. As has been stated, we are just a group of like-minded individuals who want to help. Nothing but our own standards say we need to be qualified to do it. We do it this way, and GSL is the only law we have to worry about.

I think it make more sense for us to each just bring our own, unless Tails has some other idea for it.

That's what I brought up in my second post. My first one is an attempt to compile a simple, but versatile kit. My own kit that I take to practice is unnecessarily huge. Anything I may have missed there?

Allergy relief tablets (if people have acute allergic reactions to anything, these won't help, and if people have bad allergies they usually take something for it already)
A few small bottles of distilled water (good, but not necessay)
Ibuprofen (Acetaminophen, Tylenol, is better because Ibuprofen can slow down fracture healing. if it happens I'd rather one for both situations rather than one for each)
Tube of hydrocortisone (see above for allergies)
Glucose gel (I'd say no on this as well, because diabetics will/should have their own stash in case of an emergency.)

When you are building a first aid kit for an event you have to look at what are the most common problems and build around that. For a belegarth event this is what I would be happy with.

Ice packs
Assorted bandages
Alcohol wipes
A jug of potable water
Gauze (pads and wraps)
Med tape (water proof)
One way breathing barrier
Gloves (nitrile, nobody seems to be alergic to these.)
Bread (at night for those heavy drinkers, of if you want to be an *, activated charcoal)

In fact, cut out the bread and this is what I'd recommend for practices as well. These materials and the right knowledge and you can do a lot. You have to remember, we are first responders not ALS, not even BLS.

And it is seeming like we might have to be a social guild up front, and help out on the side. I'm fine with that, it will most likely be better in the end, it just means that there are some unfortunate zones we'd have to stay inside.

Let me know if anyone has any more questions, I hope to launch the guild officially for this coming spring, so any could we can disperse the better.