Arm 5 stuff

[Bodhi]

Date being edited for content.

I apologize for putting up the wrong dates. I was relayed the wrong information. Im going to get the exact dates and post here shortly. Please be patient.

[Thorrinn Eikanskaldisson]

Then the wolves have to pull from feast. As much as I hate to do that, and as much as we were looking forward to this (especially all the preparations that we had going for it) We already have commitments at ragnarok.

Bohdi I hate doing that to you. I really do. I hope to see you at a event soon when I can get back up that way.

[Sheik]

Since I live so close to Forest Glen, I will be attending Armageddon over Ragnarok.

But we do have a number of people who fight with both groups or their unit meets once a year at Ragnarok. I would hate to lose those people.

I think we easily could have had it a week after Ragnarok like Sofie suggested and no one objected to on Nan Belegorn's message board.

If I do not get to see the Dark Angels, I will be a sad panda.

[Dr. Kazi]

I do believe Bodhi has it wrong, I've asked Kegg to reserve the park for the 11th-18th. Week before Rag, like normal.

Edit: I think the confusion is due to Bodhi and I interpereting "third week of June" differently. But the 11th-18th should work fine.

[Thorrinn Eikanskaldisson]

Just let us know. We want to help with feast, but have prior commitments as mercenaries for the great unit battle at rag plus my meeting with the kinsmen. If it somehow changes we will be there and have the feast prepared.

[Sofie]

Sheik makes a very valid point about the unit meetings.

Yes, I reaffirm that the last week of June is the best choice. The week AFTER rag, June 25th -July 2nd. Why has it not been considered? I am still waiting for a good reason (that outweighs the reasons for not holding the 2nd or 3rd week).
1st (4th-10th) and 2nd week (11th-18th) are bad choices because MANY people are still in school. No one can deny that a very large percent of our members are students. Even if they aren't still in school, they just finished and need a break to get there stuff moved or together or whatever before attending a week-long event.

3rd week (18th-25th) is bad because it overlaps with Rag. Too many people (as mentioned by Thorrinn with the feast) have obligations they must uphold at Rag, since its dates are already set.

4th week is uhm, uhm, well gee, I can't really think of why it's a worse choice than any other week.

I demand that the powers that be in this matter give us some reasoning behind their choice as I have above with mine.

[Sofie]

Sheik makes a very valid point about the unit meetings.

Yes, I reaffirm that the last week of June is the best choice. The week AFTER rag, June 25th -July 2nd. Why has it not been considered? I am still waiting for a good reason (that outweighs the reasons for not holding the 2nd or 3rd week).
1st (4th-10th) and 2nd week (11th-18th) are bad choices because MANY people are still in school. No one can deny that a very large percent of our members are students. Even if they aren't still in school, they just finished and need a break to get there stuff moved or together or whatever before attending a week-long event.

3rd week (18th-25th) is bad because it overlaps with Rag. Too many people (as mentioned by Thorrinn with the feast) have obligations they must uphold at Rag, since its dates are already set.

4th week is uhm, uhm, well gee, I can't really think of why it's a worse choice than any other week.

I demand that the powers that be in this matter give us some reasoning behind their choice as I have above with mine.

[Kegg]

I have been asked by to reserve the park from the 11th to the 18th.


-----Original Message-----
From: Reid, Daniel J [mailto:reiddani@-----.EDU]
Sent: Monday, December 26, 2005 1:56 AM
To: glarson@----.com
Subject: Arm 5 dates


Eriador has decided on the third week of June. The dates for that week, from Sunday to Sunday, are the 11th through the 18th. Thank you!

[Thorrinn Eikanskaldisson]

Thank you Kegg we are most definatly back up to full running of feast on tue then.

[Zale]

so has the date been signed in tripplicate, lost, found, and burried in the ground to become peat moss yet?

[Romuinus]

So The Dates Are The 11th Thru The 18Th? Right Left Center Agrh.

[Dr. Kazi]

Edit: you can read through this if you want, but just know that we are now planning on having it 25th-2nd, because all these reasons are weak.


All right, I've been told that its my job to make a final call on the dates and explain why, so I guess I'm as close to the "powers that be" as you're gonna get, Sofie.

First off, yes, overlapping with Rag is not a good idea, and we arn't going to do that. But you're real question is why do we want to have it 11th-18th and not 25th-2nd. To tell you the truth, you're absolutely right, the 25th-2nd would work fine. Or if it wouldn't I'm not aware of the reason why. But right now I am leaning towards holding it 11th-18th anyways.

The reasons are hardly incontrovertible, but I'll give them anyways. It mostly has to do with conservatism. We're hosting geddon from 6 hours away, and we're trying to change things up, make the fighting tighter and more enjoyable, the nightlife likewise, encourage more participation on the realm level, and generaly make a positive shift in the atmosphere, attitude, and feel of the whole event. Thats a lot to try to do, especialy since at this point it looks like the majority of the planning and much of the doing is falling on the shoulders of NB, which is a realm with a very small veteran core (10 to 15, somewhere around there). And not only are we small, but we are young. Even in that core group, quite a few of us are under 21. So I guess the point is that when we are stretched that thin and worry about how to achieve all of our goals, we don't really want to have to deal with moving away from the traditional date on top of it all. The week before Rag is a known factor, the week after is an unknown. Like I said, I can't think of a reason it wouldn't work, but I'd hate to suddenly discover such a reason a few months down the line.

So thats the main justification, minor ones would be that the later you go, the hotter it may get, the buggier it'll get etc. But you know what, the point about the students on quarterly schedules is a good one. In fact I think it should be tried. Maybe next year, when there is more time to consider it, and maybe a larger realm closer by hosting it.

So in conclusion, we are a bunch of big sissy sissypants and don't want to risk it.

In further conclusion, despite all the nonsense I just talked about, or perhaps because of it, we are going to host a Geddon that will awesome you like you've never been awesomed.

[Od1n]

Ah this kinda sucks. I think alot of western students won't be able to make it out, due to a lot of school's spring term finals end on the 16th this year.

Oh well.

[Dr. Kazi]

Alright, so having written all that crap I just realized that the reasons I gave were faulty. I mean, if we're trying to change it up and make it better we might as well go for this. The other thing I realized, after reading Bishop's post, was that I live in Iowa-land, and in Iowa there are no universities on the quarterly system, so I was having trouble getting a feeling for how many people wouldn't be able to make it if we held it on the 11th-18th (my fault, since he was hardly the first person to say something about it). Sooooooooooooo in short stop the presses, you're right, its worth it to change the date.

So I am going to contact Kegg and make sure he knows. Sunday June 25th- Sunday July 2nd is now the week we are shooting for. One way or another, the date will be official on January 2nd, when we turn in the request to the park. Sorry about all of this confusion, but I think it will be worth it in the end.

[Kegg]

Not that you should move Arm because of us, but Galin, V'hil, Soth, Piper and myself wouldn't be able to attend that week (it is the same week as Origins Game Convention which Edhellen is attending).

Our attendance at fighting may or may not be missed, but I have a feeling the massive amount of gear (cookers, castle, tents, tikis, trailers) might be. Also whether anyone knows it or not, the above list of people have done a massive (majority?) amount of work at Arm's up until this time. Just want you to be appraised of all the information before a decision is made.

What's wrong with the 11-18th (the third week of June), like it always has been? I know some college students may have difficulty attending, but moving it will cause others who planned on this weekend to miss.

KAZI... Call me. I just emailed you my phone number.

[Vokor]

why not have a vote on it? not in this forum but the Realm Leaders War Council forum. that way it can be fair. Give it a month time limit, put the three dates up and get it over with.

[Kegg]

I spoke with Kazi last night. It appears that it will indeed be the 11th-18th. I make reservations on Monday.

[Xooyan]

So much for western attendance.

Sorry guys, but I feel like you're choosing to support Dagorhir and cross-over players rather than your die hard western Belegarth bretheren.

Personally, I severely disagree with this choice and as much as I sympathize with the difficulty of planning an event of this size, I think this is a terrible choice on the part of the organizers.

If this is going to continue to be a problem in the future (apparently it is) stop having the * event in June. Bow to the Dagorhir event planners, cancel Summer Wars, move this event to the first week in July, and be done with it.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

While I sympathize with you, Xooyan, I think any choice is going to lose attendees.

With the 11th-18th, we lose some of the western attendees, but keep the larger population of folks who are still crossover and overall closer to the event. It sucks, but unfortunately is still true.

By holding it over Rag, attendence would lose many more who are closer who wish to attend both, even if it is for just a weekend. You also lose many people who already have previous commitments to RAG who have volunteered to help with ARM under the assumption that the two will not conflict, as it has been in the past.

The week after RAG, personally I felt was a good time, but can understand if a still fairly new realm with fairly new members wants help from some of the event veterans who would otherwise cannot make the week after RAG.

I think you may have an intersting idea about potentially merging Sumer Wars and ARM. While some may complain, it may bolster overall attendence to the event. Just something to consider for the future.

[Od1n]

[Mekoot Gorlock]

I think the vote is a good idea. I also say do it over rag but i'm a jerk like that.

[Xooyan]

I'm interested to see that your priorities lie with those who are closer to the event. I understand the problem, trust me. I simply disagree that we should be less concerned about people who come from far away. The west is a significant portion of our membership and they just got cut out of the event because people think it's more important to schedule around Rag than around their OWN people. That stinks in my opinion.

I'm glad you at least understand that we should think of a more long term solution. But I'm most sorry that so many young westerners will miss out this year.


Sorry, but I still think this is crap and short sighted crap at that.

[Od1n]

I'm interested to see that your priorities lie with those who are closer to the event. I understand the problem, trust me. I simply disagree that we should be less concerned about people who come from far away. The west is a significant portion of our membership and they just got cut out of the event because people think it's more important to schedule around Rag than around their OWN people. That stinks in my opinion.

I'm glad you at least understand that we should think of a more long term solution. But I'm most sorry that so many young westerners will miss out this year.


Sorry, but I still think this is crap and short sighted crap at that.

Too bad they don't give a ****.

[Tasis]

It sounds to me like it may unfortunately be too late to change the dates for this year since many people have already made plans assuming the normal week before Rag dates. I understand that Edhellan and those individuals Kegg mentioned, do a lot to support Arm and Belegarth in general, and I for one would miss their presence at Arm.

I also, however, sorely miss the presence of our students, who have not been able to attend Arm due to the events' timing. I also find it a little odd that you place the Origins Game Convention as a higher priority than Arm. I guess that is a business decision mostly, which is your perogative. However, I don't think that the Origins Game Convention is a high priority for most Belegarthians. If it came down to having hundreds of students, or a few people who would rather attend a game convention, I think the choice is easy.

I think that this is definitely something we should discuss further to see if something can be done about the dates to accomodate those who are in school (high school or college). I think it would help if we could get a list of dates as to when people are out of school for the summer, as that varies from place to place. Is there not a time when the Edhellen folks could attend during the summer break, perhaps the first week of July as Xooyan suggested?

I also would like to mention that while it's not possible for everyone, I personally managed to attend Rag X, even though I still had a week of high school left. At least in Idaho you could miss 5 days of school, although I did have to reschedule finals and whatnot seeing as I skipped finals week. That said, I don't think most people can afford to do what I did, and I think it should be possible to come up with some better dates for next year.

If we continue to hold Arm at the same dates, we will be doing ourselves a disservice by ignoring some of our most enthusiastic members. By changing the dates by as little as a few weeks, we could help keep our organization strong by accommodating students. Students are a huge part of our new member base, and supporting them is how we grow bigger and better as a group.

I fear that if we fail to change the dates that we may be driving a wedge between the older and younger realms, including most of the West. I don't want to blow this out of proportion, but I think that if students can't attend Arm, then they will turn their focus to events that they can attend. National events are really what hold us all together, and I would really like to see us work this out to get the most attendees possible.

[Kegg]

Arm has always been the 3rd week in June. We actually plan our year's events a year in advance. With that in mind we have already spent several thousand dollars for vendor space at Origin's this year, considering that Arm was the third week in June. We also HEAVILY promote Belegarth at game conventions. If future Arm's move to the same weekend as Origins, we will then have a choice to make. Like I said in my above post, we were OK with missing THIS Arm, I just wanted to make sure that those running the event would understand that we wouldn't be there to help (manpower/material).

As far as hundreds of students go, the most people we have ever had attend from the west has been maybe 30 (though this may be because it has always interfered with school). A move to the week of Rag, or the week after very well might cause a much larger drop in attendance than we would gain by additional western (student) attendance. I truly don't know. I also agree if it was a delta of 100s of attendees that could be gained by moving it a couple of weeks, it would be a no brainer. Hopefully even this year, these 100s will show up at Chaos (I plan on attending).

Finally, the weather in early June is much nicer in Illinois than in early to mid-July. June has alot of 70s and 80s. July has mostly high-80s and 90s (and some 100).

Though I heartily agree we need to do what we can to maximize attendance. I am just not sure what that is.

[Bodhi]

First of all, the comment that we dont give a **** is way out of line. If we didn't we would not have gone through this much trouble deciding on dates. We weighed the pros and cons and honestly our realm is going to need the help of Kegg and the other individuals mentioned. We are not from Illinois and we have no experience working an event at forest glenn (much less Illinois). I would recommend however that WC gets together during the week to preset the dates of the next Arm and discuss all of this. For those in the west, we apologize for the conflict in dates. Dont forget that you still have Chaos Wars and I hope that a lot of people from the East can make it there.

[Dr. Kazi]

Dude, Bishop, if I didn't give a **** this would be alot easier.

What are we supposed to do then? The 25th-2nd would have been good dates, but the fact is that we cannot run Geddon in Forest Glen from six hours away without Kegg's help. That was the understanding from the begining when Eriador agreed to host Arm 5. So this leaves us to decide between going with the usual week, which it turns out doesn't work this year because of quarterly finals (are they coming late this year, it hasn't been a problem before . . .), or overlapping with Rag.

So right now everyone who can't come because of finals is furious because we are planning on having it the 11th-18th, but I bet if we were talking about having it the 18th-25th there would be just as many people online and * about that. We would lose alot of fighters to Rag, including an entire realm that is one of two groups who have thusfar volunteered to help run a feast and help out. But if we keep it the 11th-18th, we lose alot of students, and the west once again feels left out in the cold by Belegarth.

This is obviously a big issue. And trust me, I am very aware, and very concerned, about western feelings of exclusion in Belegarth. So what do we do now? Which bad choice do we choke down? At this point I think we have two options.

Option one. The date gets turned in tommorrow, Arm happens the 11th-18th, lots of people are *.

Option two. The date gets turned in tommorrow, but we start an open discussion weighing pros and cons, talk to unit and realm leaders and get actual estimates about how many people we would lose from the two options, rather than just saying "well a bunch of people wouldn't come if we do this or that." Then as soon as we can, we make a choice, and if we decide the 11th-18th isn't good, we try to change the reservation. Of course this option depends on whether or not Forest Glen would be willing to let us change a reservation, or whether other groups take the other week anyways.

I hope you all realize that we are trying to make this work, we are trying do whats best.

[Xooyan]

Perhaps I was making the mistake of assuming the purpose of Armageddon was to act as a NATIONAL event designed to bring east and west together. If the concern is to maximize attendance of eastern Belegarthians then by all means, accomadate yourselves at the expense of your western members.


Duh, we have Chaos Wars. Like we would ever forget that. I don't even see what the heck that has to do with this conversation. The point is that apparently whether or not Arm is scheduled to accomadate the west is based on our previous years attendance. So with our attendance levels down for another year, I'm sure you'll all reconsider that choice next year, right?

I'm not arguing that there aren't other important considerations in determining a date for Arm; however my personal opinion is that this decision will continue to alienate the western contingency by making it much harder for them to attend the event (and yes, I do think those 30 members make a huge difference. They represent members of realms from half the country who make a tremendous effort to attend an event more than a thousand miles away from them. Why make it more difficult?).

Kegg, you pointed out the problems in your own argument already. Also, I lived in IL for 19 years and there's no way of knowing if it will be 3 degrees cooler in June than in July. I'd rather deal with the heat than the scheuling conflicts that will recur every year we keep trying to schedule around Rag (since that's a big priority for everyone).

[Tasis]

As far as hundreds of students go, the most people we have ever had attend from the west has been maybe 30 (though this may be because it has always interfered with school). A move to the week of Rag, or the week after very well might cause a much larger drop in attendance than we would gain by additional western (student) attendance. I truly don't know. I also agree if it was a delta of 100s of attendees that could be gained by moving it a couple of weeks, it would be a no brainer.

I really don't know the numbers either, and 100s was probably a bit of a stretch now that you point it out. I doubt we can really get a very good number up front, though, and we'd have to guess a bit as far as how many people we'd lose or gain by moving the event.

I'm pretty sure that moving it to the same week as Rag would cause us a significant drop in numbers, which is why I liked the suggestion of a later date. I'd like to hear more opinions on this issue, from the event coordinators as well as any other people who have concerns about the dates. Clearly, no date will ever work for everyone, but I think that we might be able to settle on a better time than the week before Rag.

Option two. The date gets turned in tommorrow, but we start an open discussion weighing pros and cons, talk to unit and realm leaders and get actual estimates about how many people we would lose from the two options, rather than just saying "well a bunch of people wouldn't come if we do this or that." Then as soon as we can, we make a choice, and if we decide the 11th-18th isn't good, we try to change the reservation. Of course this option depends on whether or not Forest Glen would be willing to let us change a reservation, or whether other groups take the other week anyways.

I think that is a very good idea.

I would also like to reiterate that I am always very appreciative of all the great work done by event coordinators. I certainly don't want to come accross as demanding. I'm simply posting my opinion on how we might be able to get more people to Arm.

[Kegg]

Kegg, you pointed out the problems in your own argument already.

I gotta stop doing that.

Climatologically, May is nicer than June, June is nicer than July. July just sucks (in my world view). I hate hot+humid. This is a personal opinion (that hot sucks, not that it is cooler May/June) and should not be used to make earth moving decisions.

The point about attending Chaos is, when Chaos really starts packing them in, it will be proof of massive, event attending, western realms. At that point, Belegarth will cater to them, for no other reason than they will hold many votes on War Council (and will therefore influence the days that Arm is held).

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Xooyan, my priotirites for THIS ARM, lie with getting maximum attendence and help for a newer hosting group. I agree that dates in general need to be considered for next year's ARM to accommodate everyone, but it just appears that this discussiong came a little too late for this year.

It seems that many have picked up that this needs to be a serious disucssion for years to come and overall I think that is important.

[Mekoot Gorlock]

I'm going to say that the west is very important to me and they need to be givin more consideration. We are a group that is seprate from rag and we should not consider there event in our planing. The week of rag is the best week for the people from the west and it should be when we hold arm.

I went to chaos last year and the people there were really upset about geddon last year and how they were treated. Those of us that were there from Iowa told them in event cordinater capacity that this year would be better and that they would be thought of during planing. I think that they are far more important than the people who will go to rag over arm anyway(not saying those people arn't important) its because they want to suport our organization and arn't being givin the opption.

I don't care about the attendence at the event as much as some of you what I care about is that everyone is givin the chance to go that can be there.

[Ryker]

The week of Rag isn't the best date....even RWC tried for a later date (for getting more students to show) but couldn't get the site for the date they wanted.

[Vokor]

so the whole vote thing? you know where the people choose?

[Cedric]

CW had almost 200 people there, so if you want us to "grow" before considering the west, I think we are showing our growth. We would gt more votes on WC, but the reps on WC now make it hard for us to attain voting rights. I took the Ebonhold realm for speaking rights this year, and had half the realms questioning me and wanting proof of our membership at ARM. Certain realms did not want to give us rights, because they believed we did not have significant numbers at arm, and therefore should not have rights on wc. It was a 30 minute conversation just for us to get speaking rights describing every insignificant detail of our realm. Other eastern realms get asked 5 question and there good to go.

The attitude towards western people is what is driving us away more then the dates. The way people were treated at arm is why they will not return, not the dates. If people would quit **** on people because they are from the west there would be more of us there. And yes, the west brought out 33 this last year, ALL of which drove more then 24 hours to get there, then get treated like garbage. Whatever though. Most of iowa realms are excempt from this though, they have never treated the westerners with anything other then kindness and willingness to help, if more people were like these guys/girls our sport would grow.

[Kegg]

I didn't attend much of ARM last year (busy at work). I have heard from several sources that the Western realms were treated poorly. What happened? I seriously have no idea why (or how) they were treated poorly.

My comment on Chaos wasn't intended to be a slight. I (and Numenor's) practice and standard is to almost unquestionably vote to give realms voting and speaking rights.

The Chaos War comment was rather of fact, that as the center of mass of the sport moves west, they will have a greater and greater say in the sport. Which I believe is a good thing.

[Kegg]

Just want to clear up one thing from an above post (after speaking with a friend who thought it sounding like I was trying to take my ball and go home if I didn't get my prefered dates).

Belegarth (and its constituent realms) are more than welcome to use any gear that I (or Numenor) have for event hosting whether we are able to attend or not. Some method for getting the stuff to and from the event needs to be worked out, but if you can manage that everything else is cool.

This pretty much is a standing offer to any Belegarth group, not just those hosting Arm. If you need something and we have it, just ask.

[Vokor]

That is very cool.

[Obryn]

Wow, I need to keep up on this forum more... I missed this until Kyrian pointed it out to me.

I think it's safe to say that, until it was mentioned in this thread, Kazi didn't know that the week selected for June would bar a lot of Westerners from attending. I know that I didn't know this until right now. I really find it hard to believe that Kazi and the Iowa realms would intentionally choose a bad date.

Armageddon's always been in June. There's no reason that it will always have to be, apart from climate issues. On average, July is hotter & muggier than June. On the other hand, it also has less rain. While I'm sure it's way too late to do anything about this Armageddon, Wolfpack is hosting the next one and I'm sure we can work with other dates to make sure as many people as possible can attend.

I'm really concerned about this issue with Westerners being treated poorly. I have heard very little about it from anyone, apart from a brief mention here and there. I certainly didn't see any of it. I have a feeling that this is the root problem, and that it's making the dates issue seem more personal than it really is.

Xooyan/Cedric - please give me a call sometime to talk about this. I think you both know that, through my entire time as an officer and as a realm leader, I've been working my balls off to get the Western realms as involved as possible in both War Council and in Belegarth as a whole. If all this hard work is getting * on because of bad experiences at Armageddon, I want to know about it ASAP so we can - if possible - try to fix it. Xooyan, you have my number; Cedric, expect a PM.\

-O

[Cedric]

thanks Obryn, will try to call ya as soon as possible!

I belive the dates are less of an issue and they are blowing up due to the treatment they recieved.

[Winfang]

I would like this out in the open, who mistreated the western?

[Xooyan]

I think it's safe to say that, until it was mentioned in this thread, Kazi didn't know that the week selected for June would bar a lot of Westerners from attending. I know that I didn't know this until right now. I really find it hard to believe that Kazi and the Iowa realms would intentionally choose a bad date.

Not true. I've been following this discussion on the NB board and pointedly asking that it be discussed here when I post.

You can see that thread here

http://www.nanbelegorn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84

I'm also not trying to say that anyone chose this date with the intention of shutting out the west. I'm trying to point out that though finding a good date is tough, I can't understand why we would schedule around Ragnarok rather than our own die hard membership. Frankly, that * me off and there are no two ways to explain it to me that will make me feel better about it. To everyone who crosses over, fine have a great time, but I don't think we should give Dagorhir events and their schedules precedent over our loyal members.

Armageddon's always been in June. There's no reason that it will always have to be, apart from climate issues. On average, July is hotter & muggier than June. On the other hand, it also has less rain. While I'm sure it's way too late to do anything about this Armageddon, Wolfpack is hosting the next one and I'm sure we can work with other dates to make sure as many people as possible can attend.

Good. This has to be addressed in the future or consider doing away with Arm in favor of promoting a different Belegarth event as the primary National event.

I'm really concerned about this issue with Westerners being treated poorly. I have heard very little about it from anyone, apart from a brief mention here and there. I certainly didn't see any of it. I have a feeling that this is the root problem, and that it's making the dates issue seem more personal than it really is.

The west has been discussing it in the western forum. Here's a look at the thread of discussion.
http://www.belegarth.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=13558&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I think you can see that many people are trying to figure out how to fix the problem. Yeah, some people are just venting, but most are trying to come up with practical ways to encourage a change. Those easterners that have gone to CHaos Wars will tell you that the west tries very hard to be inviting and encourage interaction.

I also tried to bring up things with the Iowa realms that I thought would help them plan for Arm in a way that would be more open and pleasant for Belegarth membership that lives far away from the midwest. I'd like to point out that this isn't just a western issue. I've heard the same kind of stuff from Southern Marches as well.

No offense Obryn, but if you didn't see it, it's my opinion that you weren't looking. I'm not saying you're part of the problem. I've appreciated your work at inclusion over the years. Wolfpack and Numenor have a long standing record of support for the formation of new realms. My beef is more with a large portion of people who seem to think that realms from somewhere other than the "core" of the country are just a bunch of newbs for them to **** on and make themselves feel big and tough.

Yeah, I am upset about this and rightly so. This is a problem that needs to be addressed by Belegarth as a whole (east, west and in between). We talk numbers and say we want to grow and then we get new groups or new faces and we say "great! Fresh meat to treat like crap" rather than "great! more members to welcome to the sport." There is a fundamental problem with that and it's about time we started addressing it.

[Kenneth]

Would a mod please be kind enough to move the thread out of the western forum so those of us who are not westerners can see it? I don't think I saw any mistreatment of westerners either. It isn't exactly fair to accuse us of not looking when it seems that none of us were aware we were supposed to be looking. Anyways, it would be nice for all of us to read the thread so we can get an idea of what to look for. Lets figure out a way around this us vs west mentality.

[Winfang]

http://www.belegarth.com/board/viewtopi ... b70819c39e

That's the link to it.

[Izareth]

I'm going to say three things in the spirit of productive commentary.

1) Though it's not easy, everyone possible should attempt to attend Chaos Wars. I've never been, and I'm hoping to break that trend this year.

2) The larger a group becomes, the harder it is to have one huge Flagship event. It is hard for those who have to travel to it, and it is hard for organizers to deal with ever-growing scheduling conflicts. If you look at the SCA, they tend to have multiple events closer to their realms to keep active. This is similar to us with our many Western events and few Southern. When they have Pennsic, it has a set location and I believe it has set dates (I may be wrong here, if I am please correct me). I have no problem with July in the future, I'm from Tennessee and the heat is inevitable.

3) I appreciate the hard work from Nan Belegorn and Eriador. I don't think anyone begrudges or envies their place in this decision. I hope it all works out. Beltaine always falls on someone's finals, and it really sucks.

Please try to go to Chaos, respect those realms that are expanding our game, and realize that whole population attendance is much easier with smaller groups. It's only gonna get harder, and we're gonna have growing pains.

[Xooyan]

Izareth,
You rule! Thanks for adding some productive responses and possible solutions for consideration. I agree with everything in your post.

[Obryn]

Not true. I've been following this discussion on the NB board and pointedly asking that it be discussed here when I post.

You can see that thread here

http://www.nanbelegorn.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=84

Then I stand corrected. I don't often peruse realms' forums; I missed this one.

The west has been discussing it in the western forum. Here's a look at the thread of discussion.
http://www.belegarth.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=13558&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I think you can see that many people are trying to figure out how to fix the problem. Yeah, some people are just venting, but most are trying to come up with practical ways to encourage a change. Those easterners that have gone to CHaos Wars will tell you that the west tries very hard to be inviting and encourage interaction.

I also tried to bring up things with the Iowa realms that I thought would help them plan for Arm in a way that would be more open and pleasant for Belegarth membership that lives far away from the midwest. I'd like to point out that this isn't just a western issue. I've heard the same kind of stuff from Southern Marches as well.

Again, I've never gone to the Western forum. I'm not a member, and haven't asked for membership. I'm glad that this is coming up now, but I kind of resent the implication that I should have seen it all along in these places that I've never had a call to look.

No offense Obryn, but if you didn't see it, it's my opinion that you weren't looking. I'm not saying you're part of the problem. I've appreciated your work at inclusion over the years. Wolfpack and Numenor have a long standing record of support for the formation of new realms. My beef is more with a large portion of people who seem to think that realms from somewhere other than the "core" of the country are just a bunch of newbs for them to **** on and make themselves feel big and tough.

No, I wasn't looking for it. I didn't know there was a problem to look for. I rely on people to bring problems to me - officers, realm leaders, unit leaders, and the rest of the population of Belegarth. I'm sorry that I wasn't looking in the right places to see it.

Yeah, I am upset about this and rightly so. This is a problem that needs to be addressed by Belegarth as a whole (east, west and in between). We talk numbers and say we want to grow and then we get new groups or new faces and we say "great! Fresh meat to treat like crap" rather than "great! more members to welcome to the sport." There is a fundamental problem with that and it's about time we started addressing it.

I'd be upset too. I am upset now that I see it.

So... let's talk solutions. Let's bring this to the War Council forums. Nothing's going to happen overnight; at the moment I'm glad this is in the open.

-O

[Xooyan]

Again, I've never gone to the Western forum. I'm not a member, and haven't asked for membership. I'm glad that this is coming up now, but I kind of resent the implication that I should have seen it all along in these places that I've never had a call to look.

I posted this link to get the ball rolling, not in order to imply that anyone not in the western forum should have somehow magically known what was being discussed there.

Here's some food for thought for the populace in general though. I've received email from other Belegarth members not located in the west that agrees with me. These individuals think the problem is not that western members are being treated poorly because they're from the west, but becuase they are not widely known. In some ways this makes the problem less offensive, but in other ways it makes the problem worse in the sense that if this is how our sport treats new members or even less vocal membership then we will never grow. People that don't feel welcomed into a group, into the sport by current members will have no reason to return.

So like I said before, this isn't just about the way we treat people west of the Rockies, it's about how we treat everyone. Don't get the idea that I'm one of those touchy feely, miss nicey pants people that needs everyone to give me a hug to make me feel welcome. I'm talking about feelings of general acceptance, introductions, putting your hand out to the new guy once in a while, etc, etc.

[kohntre]

I cant read through all those but I want to say
Is it possible for one of those Computer Wizzies post a calendar with known dates of upcoming events, with allocation for addition of future events with bouncy dates then this could be seen by all and planned upon by all.

[Beoren]

Any chance a new thread could be started elsewhere, so this can revert back to being a Geddon discussion?