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Postby Izareth » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:30 am

Although I was not personally responsible for damaging the damaged banner, I bought some hardware to repair it. I would have repaired it before I left, but V-Hil told me not to worry about it, so I gave the Hardware to him.

Never fixed, but compensated for.
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Postby V-Hil » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:44 am

Izareth is correct. He got the pieces to fix it, was ready to do it and I told him I'd take care of it.

The banner issue was brought up because it shouldn't have happened. We didn't want to play the "stealing the banner" game. Whether it was a few members of Horde stealing it or they coerced someone into doing it, the point is no one should be stealing ANYBODY's stuff.

To you roleplayers: "But goblins steal things." Humans take people who steal things and chop their hands off or throw them in stocks or string them up. Orcs would probably not think twice about chopping a goblin's head off. The characterization argument is flawed.

So, respect everyone's personal property, period! Also respect people period. If anyone had "floured" me, I would have beat the **** out of them. I think that is why the people who dusted or floured anyone either picked someone who that didn't appear intimidating/threatening/vocal or just picked someone they knew.

Time to grow up, adults. If you're a leader, time to police your troops.

I'll also add that if anything occurs at Octoberfest, I will personally see that your unit doesn't fight some unit battles at O-fest. Then perhaps the group will police itself.
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Postby Sir Guts » Wed Jun 28, 2006 10:41 am

woah there v-hill, couple things wrong there,Your logic in units policing there unit is so flawed i cant even choose where to begin. most of us at these events are adults, and yes i consider 16 an adult, as if your old enough to drive, your old enough to know right and wrong. But we are not responsible for our respective units, nor our respective units are responsible for us. We dont kick out the whole unit for one person doing a bad thing, so why punish the whole unit. think bout the logic in that. how would you like if someone running an event came to you and said so and so broke a rule and because of thqat all of urak cant fight today. you'd be **** * and throwin a **** fit i bet wondering why your responsible for someone elses actions. unit comanders and such aren't baby sitters and this isnt the military.

secondly i got flour'd and my first response was of anger, but you know what, its flour, it brush's off and it was funny, so relax with some stuff like that as its not damaging anything, and thats the kind of shenanigans that can be laughed at and have in a good time, no reason for threats or violence over something simple like that
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Postby Cyric » Wed Jun 28, 2006 12:09 pm

16 is not an adult, no matter how mature you think you are.

At any rate, Adults do stupid stuff too, and i think units policing themselves is a good idea. I know a lot of units already try and do that, to varying degrees of success. I think holding a whole unit off the field for unit battles is excessive, but this kind of stuff has been going on for years, and it's not getting any better.

As for the flouring, that was a bit stupid too. Stuff like that is the reason i tend to stay in my camp. i don't need to be accossted by people who are trying to have fun at the expense of others. I know they were being "nice" about it and had water to clean up the person, but why even do it in the first place? that would be a lot more nice.

It's all just a matter of respect and common courtesy.
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Postby Kegg » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:06 pm

Guts The Heavy Blade wrote:woah there v-hill, couple things wrong there,Your logic in units policing there unit is so flawed i cant even choose where to begin. most of us at these events are adults, and yes i consider 16 an adult, as if your old enough to drive, your old enough to know right and wrong. But we are not responsible for our respective units, nor our respective units are responsible for us. We dont kick out the whole unit for one person doing a bad thing, so why punish the whole unit. think bout the logic in that. how would you like if someone running an event came to you and said so and so broke a rule and because of thqat all of urak cant fight today. you'd be **** * and throwin a **** fit i bet wondering why your responsible for someone elses actions. unit comanders and such aren't baby sitters and this isnt the military.


Its called peer pressure. People do these stupid things to win "favor" with others in their units. If everyone in their unit makes it unmistakably clear that shennanigans are unacceptable, they will end. Instead of doing stupid things under peer pressure, they will do the proper thing under peer pressure.

Vhil is not saying the no one in the offending group can fight at all that day, he is saying for a couple of unit battles, units will be held accountable for the actions of their members. In many team sports, teams (units) may be disqualifed for actions of their members (or even fans).

I agree that unit leaders (and their members) are not babysitters, so if you have babies that need sitting in your unit you had best get rid of them. Problem solved. If those responsible are not allowed to join units, they will most likely either reform or quit the sport.

If it is not the unit (or realm) leaders job to "babysit" those responsible, who's job is it? I suppose that you believe it should be the event coordinators job to babysit everyone. Like we don't have enough to do already. Event coordinators don't make you help with feast, or marshall, or any of the other 100 things that must be done for a successful event. All they ask is that you (and your team/unit/realm) don't mess things up for everyone else. It really is not to much to ask?

And yes. Vhil would be incredibly angry, not at the event coordinators who are trying their best to make sure EVERYONE has a good time but at the lowlife that is causing problems at the event... the person in his unit.
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Postby telanar » Wed Jun 28, 2006 1:58 pm

I have never been involved in the shennanigans, or had things done to me before this event. I came back to my tent on sin night, after spendnig the evening escorting a total of 4 drunk people back to their camps safely, to find my sleeping bag stuffed full hay. I had to spend the next half hour with a flash light picking straw out, and I still haven't gotten all of it out. And it was a brand new sleeping bag. Obviously, whoever did this targeted me in particular, and I can't figure out what I could have done to anyone that would result in this. Had I known who did it, I would have asked Gorlock to throw them out from the event.
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Postby bo1 » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:33 pm

a perfect example of what is not cool to do at an event. that was your stuff that someone else dammaged and made very uncomfortable to sleep on( i will assume). it took time and malicious intent to do it, they should have been kicked out if they could be found.
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Postby Izareth » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:39 pm

V-Hil and I have discussed our unit interaction. I've assured him that we will leave his stuff alone. We didn't molest the Numinor flags, I do think some of my people were trying to swindle someone out of their banner, but I don't think that came to fruition.

We don't want to upset people beyond that of a game of "put that down". We were also not involved in the flour game, a few of my people fell victim to that as well.

As adults, I hope we can come up with an agreeable game for those interested, and we can be aware of those disinterested and leave them alone.
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Postby bo1 » Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:55 pm

hey izzy, It was my banner that was being traded. I was trying to show that its not a big deal and defuse the situation a bit by offering my flag for yours. I thought people were taking it a little too serious and wanted to get it back into a fun game. the plan was to have the Clan of the Hydra march on the field with your banner right after you marched on the field with ours. then a big battle( all mock) over the flags and then plan c for both sides. in the end everbody would be dead except the 2 people holding the flags, who would then exchange them and declare themselves the winner. It would have been fun but i could not barter a deal with the very schrewd Dulin( sp?).
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Postby Ju'Dekei » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:28 pm

LMAO! I would have loved to see Dulin and Bo barter over this. I'm so sorry I missed that.
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:38 pm

I was there, it was awesome.
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Postby Izareth » Wed Jun 28, 2006 4:38 pm

Adults can have fun with this kind of playing too. We need to make sure that everybody involved wants to be involved. I do think there is malice involved with banner stealing specifically. Doing these things with unwilling participants needs to stop.

I heartily agree with the sentiments to that affect.

Thanks Bo for illustrating that fun can be had if characterization of this kind is done with a light heart and respect for fellow participants. This is the only way I want to see these games insue.
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Postby Denara » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:24 pm

Guts The Heavy Blade wrote:secondly i got flour'd and my first response was of anger, but you know what, its flour, it brush's off and it was funny, so relax with some stuff like that as its not damaging anything, and thats the kind of shenanigans that can be laughed at and have in a good time, no reason for threats or violence over something simple like that


Speaking as someone who also got floured, I was pretty upset. While trying to negotiate the flag trade, our group was approached by another group. Sensing that something was about to happen, I pulled myself to the side. Someone I could not see threw flour at the side of my face. It got into my eye and HURT! When I recovered from the initial shock and the burning pain, the entire group ran off. There was no water. I was left to my own devices to try to clear flour from inside my eye.

This is the type of crap that should not happen. I was trying to diffuse other problems when I was assaulted. Yes, I am going to call it an assault. However, because I was blinded, I cannot identify my attacker.
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Postby Ju'Dekei » Wed Jun 28, 2006 6:57 pm

My first reaction is "Thank goodness no one has a wheat allergy".
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Postby Ora » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:06 pm

First, let me apologize for the lengthy post...

Has anyone considered that things such as this -- shenanigans -- is one of the reasons attendance has dropped so considerably? I haven't been to the past few Arms due to other personal obligations, but from past experience at other events I've seen the damage done to people's personal property "all in the name of fun" and its simply should not be tolerated no matter how "inexpensive" an item may be or appear to be (homemade banners, garb, pillows, blankets, sleeping bags, etc).
How are we as an organization supposed to encourage people to attend our events to have fun fighting and partying if they constantly have to stand guard over their personal property? As Onyx stated, its one of the reasons he tries to stay in a hotel... and I can't say as I blame him. How far are things to go and to be let go before something is done? There are expensive items that people bring to events (ie cars, weapons, etc.) and "personal grudges" or "fun" can be taken to an extreme and nothing is done. True, everyone is responsible for the things they bring and there are some deviants out there just looking to steal things and that's truly sad. Belegarth is supposed to be an extended family and I for one have never stolen nor thought of stealing or destroying something that belongs to one of my family members.
As far as the way things were run at the event, I wasn't there, but I'm reading a lot of bad things and it simply boils down to if a new group volunteers to run Armageddon, for pete's sake, some of the more established realms need to take them by the hand and help them out or simply tell the group NO, unless they've run a few local events to prepare them. Yes, I'm sure there was plenty of help, but it sounds like it wasn't given where it was needed. Troll is a very big responsibility for even the most experienced of us. Money is involved, but there is also the "central info station" for the event. I'm not suggesting babysitting the people, but someone more experienced with Troll needs to be readily available to help out or to say "that's not a good idea" (like yelling at people instead of greeting them to the event and/or marking what could be construed as offensive words written on event tokens).
Feast is a big responsibility (been there, done that). As Izareth knows, it's not easy to plan a feast when you don't know how many people are expected to be in attendance. ****'s gonna happen, like running short on food, but short of taking only advanced reservations to establish an attendance to feed, you're either gonna run short on food, or you're going to buy way too much food and possibly end up with a ton of waste. Throwing away food is not only throwing away food, but it's throwing away money.
My suggestion is, before volunteering to run a week-long event as 'geddon or even running the feast at 'geddon, make sure you've been involved with and/or run a local event or feast. Getting some experience under your belt will do worlds of good when it comes to the bigger events.
As for the shenanigans, I'm all for ZERO tolerance as well. If we keep doing nothing about them they're going to continue to grow into extremes until the law is called in... and that definitely poses a problem for future events at any camp site. I've been around to see the lists of "missing" items at events and very rarely have things such as "live" steel weapons, expensive sunglasses, weapons, stereos, cameras ever been returned.
I've seen far too many passive responses to "crimes" at events that its ridiculous. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, but someone has to be or things are going to get much worse.
Several years ago DD's board of directors had to deal with one its members at Rag. That person was caught stealing (off site), but the board suspended that person from fighting with our group for a year. This may seem a bit severe to some, but setting examples such as this is possibly one of the best solutions for getting it into people's minds that there are consequences to their actions. Believe me, there are many people out there who have the mindset of, "if you don't do something about this problem, I'll involve the law and something will be done." I hope it never comes to that.
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Postby Dr. Kazi » Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:43 pm

We didn't exactly volunteer for the job.

I just thought I would mention that the thing people are most upset about, shennanigans, is not something that has to do with Arm V specifically. As everyone here has said, its been going on forever. Discourage it, ban people, whatever, but don't act like NB hosted the first event ever where people got harrassed and their stuff stolen.
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Postby Izareth » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:00 pm

Ora, I think you'll find that I, at least, am trying to address this problem without the use of Zero Tolerance. Because of the error factor in determining the culprit when no one was around.

Theft of sunglasses and live steel have nothing to do with the 'prank' or 'shennanigan' discussion.

I think that determining who might be willing to play the banner game, and ensuring those who do not are taken seriously when they exclude themselves, is a good way to keep tempers down and take these complaints seriously.

Physical assault, dumping tents, and stealing are not included in my proposal, and should be addressed as seriously as deemed necessary by event coordinators.
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Postby Ora » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:00 pm

Kazi wrote:We didn't exactly volunteer for the job.

I just thought I would mention that the thing people are most upset about, shennanigans, is not something that has to do with Arm V specifically. As everyone here has said, its been going on forever. Discourage it, ban people, whatever, but don't act like NB hosted the first event ever where people got harrassed and their stuff stolen.

I'd like to point out that I wasn't implying that this is the first event this has happened at. It's been going on for a very long time and its been getting worse. Time for it to end.

If you didn't volunteer, how'd you end up doing it? That's something that's discussed at WC and that's when people (realms) volunteer. If your realm WC representative decided on something big like that without consulting your realm, I'd suggest you take it up with him/her. That's a decision that should involve the input before making the commitment.
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Postby Ora » Wed Jun 28, 2006 8:55 pm

Izareth wrote:Ora, I think you'll find that I, at least, am trying to address this problem without the use of Zero Tolerance. Because of the error factor in determining the culprit when no one was around.
Theft of sunglasses and live steel have nothing to do with the 'prank' or 'shennanigan' discussion.
I think that determining who might be willing to play the banner game, and ensuring those who do not are taken seriously when they exclude themselves, is a good way to keep tempers down and take these complaints seriously.
Physical assault, dumping tents, and stealing are not included in my proposal, and should be addressed as seriously as deemed necessary by event coordinators.

I'm all for roleplay, but encouraging thievery of any kind may to lead to problems, whether its in game or not, because someone is going to step outside of the rules or use the rules to do something they want to do and call it a part of the game. I hope your "shenanigan" rules work out. As long as very strict guidelines are set down, leaving no loopholes for what's in and what's not in the game of "shenanigans" then it might work. I hate to say it, though, but I fear there's always going to be banner stealing (or other defacement of property) because of the whole unit/personal grudge thing that's going on which is completely childish. It comes down to people being responsible. We're at events to have fun, true, but events aren't excuses to turn into a bunch of childish idiots who have no respect for other people, even if you don't like them -- "shenanigan" rules aside..
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Postby Xooyan » Wed Jun 28, 2006 9:07 pm

Personally I'm very interested in the "Banner Game" Izareth is suggesting and his take on a rule set for this kind of activity. One my favorite events was Rag 15 in DD when we played the Rune game as part of the Great War. Sneaking into camps and trying to nab the runes or read them without getting caught was great fun and kept people playing in character games all evening. It also made it fun for lots of units or realms that like to hang out or party in their camps to have something to guard against.

I really think we can come up with something to fill this "need" for some kind of schenanigans. It makes sense to me to see Horde running this type of activity and I'm impressed thus far with much of what Izareth has to say about it.
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Postby Izareth » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:42 am

Every one of my posts regarding the Banner game emphasizes that there will be clear indicators for in-play items.

If it's not in-play, the coordinators and owners of said item are greater empowered to persue punishments based on vandalism or theft. No one can hide behind an excuse of "I thought it was a game" because the participants of the game and those outside the game are clearly determined as so.

If this is adopted, it can be understood to look for in-play indicators. We can use this to help enforce these sketchy behaviors.
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Postby Thorondor » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:03 am

Something else that has sparked my memory...If people continue to vandalize things and assult people we will eventually have to start dealing with authorities. This is speaking only of myself and not for anyone else. Although, this type of case might also be associated with drinking...

Because of my history and everything that I have been on, I can snap. Not a yelling rage, but a true psychological rage where I don't remember anything that happens and I loose full control of my actions. If someone decides to flour me or what ever and I'm not in the best of moods, there is the possibility I will go into one of these rages and severly injure the other person. There's no way around dealing with cops when people have to be taken to the hospital for physical injuries.

This isn't anything like "oh, a marshal might get hit by a meteorite during fighting". The past two times it has happened, it was triggered by stupid things. The first I grabbed my sister (Elwing) by the shoulders and threw her about 6 feet onto the couch. The other I nearly choaked out JD without realizing it.

Now...things to think about.
1) What would happen to the group/sport when it comes out that we've known about this type of 'pranks" and ignored it?
2) What would happen with our use of the park(s) when the story spread?
3) What would happen to the person who assulted me - assuming I was able to be stopped? Assuming I wasn't pulled off of them?
4) What would happen to me? I would probably stop coming to events to prevent this from ever happening again. I'm a kind hearted person and don't like to see other people hurt.

My psychologist has told me to avoid problems as much as possible before I severly hurt someone, but if the problem comes to me from out of the blue, there might not be anything I can do to stop my reaction.

People need to start thinking about the large picture. Sure, it might be funny to throw flour or steal a banner. But what happens when you're caught and the person takes it into their own hands to stop you? There's going to be lots of trouble, both in the game as well as with the authorities.

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Postby savetuba » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:27 am

So what happenes when theft, assault, and jokes become the least of our worries? So far it has been pure luck that nothing else has happened.

In our world today a guy could come to the event, nobody knows him and trys to have fun but people who don't know him target him for these "jokes". Now suppose someone else molests a kid, or rapes someone, or someone is found dead in the bush? Or maybe someone beats the **** out of some joker? I know long before the police even show up there will be a lynch mob and they will probally target the person no one knows.

What is stopping "jokers" from forming a group and kidnapping some one and holding them for ransom? "we want booze and if you want your friend back give us booze." or some **** like that?

There just seems to be too much hostility towards new people and a lack of saftey.
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Postby Izareth » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:18 am

This is like when you expressed your concern about a killer murdering people at an event, Savetuba.
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Postby Dr. Kazi » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:48 am

Seriously, Savetuba. You said the same wierd thing after last Arm. And no, there still isn't any way to prevent some random psycho that no one knows from coming to an event to kidnap/rape/kill someone. Except that they would get caught, jailed, maybe executed who knows. Which is pretty much the only thing that keeps people from doing that stuff anyways.
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Postby Big King Jimmy » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:55 am

savetuba wrote:What is stopping "jokers" from forming a group and kidnapping some one and holding them for ransom? "we want booze and if you want your friend back give us booze." or some **** like that?


Where did you acquire this information? Alright group, cyanide capsules.
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Postby div » Thu Jun 29, 2006 11:59 am

Savetuba, I have to agree with Izzy and Kazi, that's a bit far-fetched. In short, I think that booze hostages and lynch mobs are extreme and unwarranted concerns during events.
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Postby Xooyan » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:00 pm

Okay, woah.

Thorondor,
If you have a phsychologist that is telling you there are instances in which you might not be able to control yourself and you believe him, I don't ever want you on the field at an event. I think you need to rethink your position here and realize that if you assaulted someone in response to something like what we've been discussing here, you would also be liable for and act of illegal aggression and I can tell you exactly what would happen. You would end up arrested.

Savetuba,
Honestly, I'm not sure where you're getting these ideas. The things you are talking about are not remotely acceptable. A crazed lynch mob? Are you nuts? Please think twice before you post things like this.

Can we center this discussion on constructive insight rather than wildly out of control and severely unlikey potential occurrences? I entreat you all to remember that this is a public forum and that we are trying to pose solutions to problems.
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Postby Mekoot Gorlock » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:30 pm

Ora wrote:
Kazi wrote:We didn't exactly volunteer for the job.


If you didn't volunteer, how'd you end up doing it? That's something that's discussed at WC and that's when people (realms) volunteer. If your realm WC representative decided on something big like that without consulting your realm, I'd suggest you take it up with him/her. That's a decision that should involve the input before making the commitment.


Our WC rep. said that we couldn't run this event when it was first brought up. He said multiple times that "we are just a bunch of highschool kids". At that time TA was also saying that they would love to run the event and would have no problem doing so. We continued to say that we couldn't run it and continued to be ignored. We were given Wild Wood to help us run it and we still said no but no one listened. So it wasn't some decision on the part of our WC rep that none of the rest of us had input on because he was saying what the realm wanted him to say and no one listened to us they only listened to the now graduated and moved on members of the other Iowa realm.
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Postby savetuba » Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:40 pm

so I'm paireniod, but I do see the chance of all of these things happening. True we can not stop someone from entering and doing harm, but our own responce is what I'm thinking about. With such a close knit group any large atrosity will anger a lot of people and in the law-less-ness of events lynch mobs can and probally will form.

You seem to think it won't happen but it did at arm 4.

The things you are talking about are not remotely acceptable.


Yet we are talking about assaulting people, damaging property, and theft. All which have happened and were obviously acceptable to not have anything done about any of it untill weeks after it happened.

If there is going to be a crack down on law-less-ness then I think all possible senarios be looked at and how the group, and how events, should handle each.
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Postby Ora » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:47 pm

Mek Gorlock wrote:Our WC rep. said that we couldn't run this event when it was first brought up. He said multiple times that "we are just a bunch of highschool kids". At that time TA was also saying that they would love to run the event and would have no problem doing so. We continued to say that we couldn't run it and continued to be ignored. We were given Wild Wood to help us run it and we still said no but no one listened. So it wasn't some decision on the part of our WC rep that none of the rest of us had input on because he was saying what the realm wanted him to say and no one listened to us they only listened to the now graduated and moved on members of the other Iowa realm.


I know it's too late for this now, but in the future problems such as this can be avoided by simply voicing the issue to WC via this UBB to let them know that you're unable to do run the event. That way others will have time to step up to take things into control. Then if your group wants to volunteer to help them that's all the better. Having known your group probably wouldn't have been able to handle things its better to step down than have things fall apart around you.
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Postby Ora » Thu Jun 29, 2006 2:58 pm

savetuba wrote:so I'm paireniod, but I do see the chance of all of these things happening. True we can not stop someone from entering and doing harm, but our own responce is what I'm thinking about. With such a close knit group any large atrosity will anger a lot of people and in the law-less-ness of events lynch mobs can and probally will form.
You seem to think it won't happen but it did at arm 4.
The things you are talking about are not remotely acceptable.

Yet we are talking about assaulting people, damaging property, and theft. All which have happened and were obviously acceptable to not have anything done about any of it untill weeks after it happened.
If there is going to be a crack down on law-less-ness then I think all possible senarios be looked at and how the group, and how events, should handle each.

I don't know how long you've been involved with the organization, but rest assured there are some responsible individuals who aren't going to just sit back to let things go that far and not do anything.
We are a community of friends and family and for the most part we look out for one another. If someone sees a crime or stands by while someone is being assaulted then they're just as guilty as the people committing the crime.
Any serious scenarios would be and have been handed over to the local law enforcement. There have been instances in the past where the law has been called in at events, but things were kept to a degree of silence and discretion so as not to alarm other attendees. Its never a good thing to have to say this, but is has happened and thus far there have been very rare occurences.

Izareth, I hope your rules system works well. My only suggestion -- and I'm sure you've taken this into consideration -- is you inform everyone of the rules of the game, not just those playing. That way there's no excuses and people are aware of the consequences.
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Postby Derian » Thu Jun 29, 2006 3:43 pm

I am, and have been NB's WC rep for a long time.

This is how the WC at Geddon 3 went:

Galin: I nominate Eriador to run Geddon 5.

Derian: I really don't think we're capable of running this event; the majority of NB is still in high school/early college, and Tir Asleen is entirely a school-year realm. I'm not even sure if they have practice in the summer.

Someone else: I second Eriador for Geddon 5.

Derian: Add in the fact that we'll be running this event from 6 hours away.

Someone from Numenor: Oh, it'll be ok, Numenor will help. (And they did.)

President: All in favor? *Unanimous vote save for NB/TA*

Derian: *sigh*
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Postby Xooyan » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:33 pm

savetuba wrote:so I'm paireniod, but I do see the chance of all of these things happening. True we can not stop someone from entering and doing harm, but our own responce is what I'm thinking about. With such a close knit group any large atrosity will anger a lot of people and in the law-less-ness of events lynch mobs can and probally will form.

You seem to think it won't happen but it did at arm 4.

The things you are talking about are not remotely acceptable.


Yet we are talking about assaulting people, damaging property, and theft. All which have happened and were obviously acceptable to not have anything done about any of it untill weeks after it happened.

If there is going to be a crack down on law-less-ness then I think all possible senarios be looked at and how the group, and how events, should handle each.


There were lynch mobs at Arm 4? Really? Look, I'm not trying to discredit you here, but who was lynched and by whom were they lynched? Certainly something this serious would have taken precendent with WC discussions, yet I never heard such a thing at WC nor later on the boards.

I'll also have you note that I never said ANY lawless actions were acceptable. I'm a solid advocate of calling the police in instances of crime. I know you don't know me, but I am likely one of the most law abiding individuals you are likely to meet.

Of course it is possible for anything to happen. It's POSSIBLE at any time in any place. I could get hit by the mailman in the street tomorrow and die, but it isn't likely.

I maintain that your scenarios are unlikely in the extreme and remain steadfast in my faith that Belegrim are not going to start lynching each other or allowing others to be lynched any time soon. C'mon if you really thought that and kept showing up to events, I'd be questioning your personal sanity.
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Postby Xooyan » Thu Jun 29, 2006 5:41 pm

Derian wrote:I am, and have been NB's WC rep for a long time.

This is how the WC at Geddon 3 went:

Galin: I nominate Eriador to run Geddon 5.

Derian: I really don't think we're capable of running this event; the majority of NB is still in high school/early college, and Tir Asleen is entirely a school-year realm. I'm not even sure if they have practice in the summer.

Someone else: I second Eriador for Geddon 5.

Derian: Add in the fact that we'll be running this event from 6 hours away.

Someone from Numenor: Oh, it'll be ok, Numenor will help. (And they did.)

President: All in favor? *Unanimous vote save for NB/TA*

Derian: *sigh*


No offense intended, really, but why didn't the Iowa realms revisit this at the Arm 4 WC if it was still a major concern for them? I'm not trying to make anyone accountable here. In fact, I would advocate that we not try to turn this into any kind of blame game, but instead see what we can learn from it and try not to repeat our mistakes. I'm still convinced that even most people that are complaining are not trying to do so with the express intent of shaming Nan Belegorn.

I just looked back at the WC notes (which I took) from Arm 4 and there were 0 motions with regards to problems with running Arm 5. Again, I'm not trying to make anyone look bad, but if Nan Belegorn really didn't want the job, that was a great time to bring it up and shed the responsibility.
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Postby Dr. Kazi » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:00 pm

We thought we could, and we tried, and I don't think we completely failed, either (alot of the things that made it tough happened after Arm IV, and by that time backing out would have been unfair for whoever would have ended up getting nailed with it). But the whole issue isn't really relevant, and I never should have brought it up. Lets put this one aside and address what is actually important.

Like lynch mobs?

No, not that either. I think this thread is getting too big to serve as a constructive place for conversation about Arm V and future Armageddons. We should either split it, or start new threads about stuff like dealing with theft and harrassment or whatever.

But I would like to end with a last thank you to all my NB friends who worked so hard, and all of the invaluable help Numenor provided behind the scenes, and the Horde, and everyone else who chipped in. I know for a fact that no matter what has been said here, a LOT of people had a blast at Arm V, and it's because of you all.
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Postby Derian » Thu Jun 29, 2006 7:16 pm

Kazi wrote:Lots of stuff.


Bingo.
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Postby savetuba » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:14 pm

Xooyan wrote:There were lynch mobs at Arm 4? Really? Look, I'm not trying to discredit you here, but who was lynched and by whom were they lynched?


It was on the moonless night, I remember that night because it was very dark and sitting in the grass you could hear all kinds of life aside from the mob that was moving from camp to camp attacking whom ever they wanted. I forget which camp I was at, friendly people though, but a large group of armed people started up to camp and a few people in the camp gathered weapons close and stood ready the mob stopped seeing armed resistance and made a wide arc around us. I was curious so I slipped off into the dark and followed the mob. They stoped at our tent and talked amoung them selves as to who's tent that was, if they should care, and other things that disturbed me, I know it disturbed me because I remember the fealing of dread and fear, but I can't remember what they were saying exactly past the initial questions. They moved on from camp to camp, searching in my oppinion for someone. If they met someone on the road or on the way they would group attack that person. I didn't bother getting close enough to hear what they said durring or after the attack but the person was cursing at them as they moved on. So it went on for several hours before the mob lost interest and broke up wandering back to their camps. I stayed up for another hour or so watching and listening before going to bed.

Did it happen the next night? nope. Definatly a mob and they were obviously looking for someone and by the burtality of the attacks on random people I don't think it was for a good reason.
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Postby Xooyan » Thu Jun 29, 2006 9:38 pm

Do you know the meaning of "lynch mob"? I'm just curious because you seem to have angry mob and lynch mob confused.

Secondly, by "armed" do you mean they were carrying foam padded weapons or do you mean actual weapons?

Third, if you literally felt threatened or felt someone else was threatened, did you report it to security?

4th, are you on some kind of paranoia inducing meds that we should all know about or just really overly fond of ridiculous conjecture?
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Postby Spork » Thu Jun 29, 2006 10:13 pm

Definatly a mob


A true medieval feel.

Honestly, so many people are bickering over what went wrong and why. I've seen shenanigans done and I'm a noob. I just sat here for 30 minutes reading every post excluding Oras that was extremely long.

There are several conversations going on here, one about mobs, one about shenanigans, and one about how to better next years Geddons.

At least there isn't flaming or complete bastardazation of peoples words. (Yes, I know people are pointing their fingers.) If there should be a game where people play "shenanigans" I think there should be major rules set down. I don't think you'll be able to over-all get rid of them, because that seems like a task that'll be hard to accomplish.

I believe that a lot of people in this game come out to hang with friends and meet new ones, at whatever event they travel to. Overall, I've heard the worst and best of this Geddon, although I did not attend. Does this mean, I cannot give my .02?

Now for the meat of my post:

It (Shenanigans) could be something included in a Hunters Tournament or Assasins Tourney, killing people worth _____, capturing a flag worth _______, possibly a Unit Tournament. From what it sounds like, the rune thing rocked, I've heard several people mention it. Some people are concerned that our fellow players in this game cannot handle themselves to play in such a tournament/game. This means something is going wrong and it needs fixing. Designate certain areas for drinking or certain times for sleeping, I don't want our game to turn into a re-make of Auschwitz (No offense), but if it comes down to it, event coords will make that way.

That's my .02, for what its worth. A lot of repeating, I know.
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Postby Cedric » Fri Jun 30, 2006 7:43 am

your lynch mob sounds very much like a mob of city guards that were around on monday or tuesday night trying to find assasins in the assasin game.
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Postby Ora » Fri Jun 30, 2006 10:08 am

If there was a group of people going around actually assaulting people, those who were witness to it (as Xooyan pointed out) SHOULD HAVE REPORTED IT! Don't sit idly by while people are being assaulted. This makes you just as guilty!

Side note:
Cedric wrote:your lynch mob sounds very much like a mob of city guards that were around on monday or tuesday night trying to find assasins in the assasin game.

I remember when that started at Arm I. I don't think it was a part of the actually assassins tourney... people just decided to form an "angry mob" to hunt for the assassins. I think it added a touch of realism to the game.
Sounds like what's being described to me, too though.
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Postby Sheik » Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:47 pm

Who is this shady person? ASSASSIN!
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Postby Thorondor » Fri Jun 30, 2006 3:12 pm

[quote=Xooyan]Thorondor,
If you have a phsychologist that is telling you there are instances in which you might not be able to control yourself and you believe him, I don't ever want you on the field at an event. I think you need to rethink your position here and realize that if you assaulted someone in response to something like what we've been discussing here, you would also be liable for and act of illegal aggression and I can tell you exactly what would happen. You would end up arrested. [/quote]

Yep, I'd end up arrested as well as the person who assulted me. Then I'd be out on bail, found innocent due to either self defense or by mental disease and defect. Add ontop of that I'm protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act due to my medical issues and it'd be a bad day for everyone involved.

Which is partly why I've only been to 2 Arms (1 & 4). I love Fest and can't wait to get back to SW. The problems there are kept under control and are delt with quickly, efficiently, and quietly.

Just a few definations for everyone: I pulled them from dictionary.com since http://dictionary.law.com is a little more in depth.
Vandalize: To destroy or deface (public or private property) willfully or maliciously.

Assault: *A violent physical or verbal attack.
*An unlawful threat or attempt to do bodily injury to another.
*The act or an instance of unlawfully threatening or attempting to injure another.

Battery: The unlawful and unwanted touching or striking of one person by another, with the intention of bringing about a harmful or offensive contact.

Self-defense: The right to protect oneself against violence or threatened violence with whatever force or means are reasonably necessary.


Add in that there is minimal light at night and something as harmless as flour becomes more dangerous due to the fact that it DOES hurt when it contacts the eyes. If someone feels threatened, they are legally allowed to react with sufficient force if they feel they aren't able to escape the threat.

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Postby Obryn » Fri Jun 30, 2006 8:03 pm

Thorondor wrote:Yep, I'd end up arrested as well as the person who assulted me. Then I'd be out on bail, found innocent due to either self defense or by mental disease and defect. Add ontop of that I'm protected by the Americans with Disabilities Act due to my medical issues and it'd be a bad day for everyone involved.

Erm... I'm going to call * on a bunch of this. You don't understand the way the legal system works, and you don't understand how the mental disease or defect defense affects you and your future.

Back on topic, though, am I the only one who's really disappointed we as an organization still need to have discussions about whether or not theft is appropriate?

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Postby Thorondor » Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:43 am

Eh, I'd get a nice lil padded room.

Either way, now that the drugs have normalized me a little bit better.

We shoud NOT be needing to discuss if theft, vandalism, practical "assault" jokes, etc are too far should already be covered and determined the outcomes of said things. The sport is 5years old. These should be set as well as the base rules are set.

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Postby Winfang » Sat Jul 01, 2006 8:17 pm

Derian wrote:I am, and have been NB's WC rep for a long time.

This is how the WC at Geddon 3 went:

Galin: I nominate Eriador to run Geddon 5.

Derian: I really don't think we're capable of running this event; the majority of NB is still in high school/early college, and Tir Asleen is entirely a school-year realm. I'm not even sure if they have practice in the summer.

Someone else: I second Eriador for Geddon 5.

Derian: Add in the fact that we'll be running this event from 6 hours away.

Someone from Numenor: Oh, it'll be ok, Numenor will help. (And they did.)

President: All in favor? *Unanimous vote save for NB/TA*

Derian: *sigh*

LOL, thanks for making me laugh Derian. You didn't want to run Arm and yet you voted for yourself to do it.

Also, I can't believe it took this long for someone like Obryn to come on here and sum up what this all is. You're debating weather stealing is okay or not. This has made for a good a laugh.
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Postby Xooyan » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:23 am

Actually, Winfang Derian said that everyone voted in favor with the EXCEPTIONS of Nan Belegorn and Tir Asleen.
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Postby Zzyzx » Sun Jul 02, 2006 11:35 am

It's been fun guys. Time for new threads.
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