Thoughts from an Outsider about Armaggedon VI

[AudriSampson]

I am a friend of Lady Feri and some other members in Danville area, so I knew that most of them were going to be at armageddon, and that I would probably be running errands and other things for Feri and my other friends. I did not stay very long when I was there, but it was long enough to come to a few conclusions that I figured I would share to maybe help you out.

1. Not everyone is a fighter: After looking over your flier and sitting in Lady Feri's tent I realized that there was NOTHING geared towards Non-combatants. There are so many opportunities to teach History or the Culture of the Middle Ages.

2. Location: Come on guys couldn't you get Kickapoo park or somewhere within a few miles of grocery stores, department stores or locals work places. Ive spent more money on gas running my roomie and my LP to and from the event then there registration cost.

3. Presentation: The first thing I saw as I came in was cars and sleeping tents. Had my friends not said were here I probably would of kept on going down the road figuring the event was further down. It really did not feel as if I were walking into a different time period just a huge campsite with oddly dressed campers. Also on this note I would strongly start to encourage better costuming and behavior while around the camp because I really did not see the difference between Belagarth members and Ampt Guard members (hopefully I spelled Ampt Guard right), after being told by everyone that Belegarth was a step up from Ampt Guard in there friendliness, fighting and realism.

4. Sin Night: Does your group need to promote wide scale public drunkeness and Sex to have fun? On top of all that we add wide spread illegal drug use by your members at the event. Most groups would shut down there events for those behaviors rather then encourage it. Truthfully if your event was held in a more populated area, such as Kickapoo, arrest would have been made, and your event canceled.

I understand that attendance is down this year (as of my writing this) and I sure hope it gets better, but I honestly can not see that happening if all visitors have experiences like mine.

Now on a positive note my room mate has had alot of fun. Since he's been there this week he has learned to Fight, bought garb and is still probably fighting in the overnight fight as I write this. He lives in a house with two girls and a girl cat so its a good chance for him to be the big macho aggressive guy in a format where its appreciated. Thanks to the fighters that helped him out.

Audri Michelle Sampson

[Bodmin]

and this is when you realize that events are nothing more than dressing stupid, beating the hell out of each other and get stupid drunk with your friends out in the woods

wash rinse and repeat

[AudriSampson]

wow lesson learned

[Kharn]

1: I don't recall that any Belegarth event was really organized enough to cater to non-combatants, but frankly, as a combatant, I'm not terribly concerned. If non-combatants want to organize non-combatant activities for other non-combatants, I'm sure this would be encouraged and maybe even supported, but I'm not gonna waste my time teaching a lesson on basketweaving.

2: We've used Forest Glen for as long as I can remember, and I enjoy the seclusion. I assume that Kickapoo or any of the other parks that are closer to civilization would be more expensive, and quite frankly, I'm not interested in fighting at Kickapoo. Sure it might be a nice way to have more people see us, but I enjoy having the place to ourselves.

3: Guess what, this isn't the middle ages, and our campsite at Forest Glen isn't so spacious that we can cram all the cars back out of sight. I'm sorry that we don't live up to your ridiculous expectations. I do agree that costuming and garb has gone downhill for years, I've been buying better garb myself this year, but I can't really speak for others. As far as behavior, unless you want to cite some specific examples, thats a pretty meaningless statement that can't really be addressed any further. I would never claim that Belegarth is a step up from any other fighting/recreation group, rather that we are our own unique experience. Comparisons to other groups are pretty meaningless.

4: Maybe thats one of the reasons we keep it at Forest Glen. Personally, I haven't seen a sin night since Arm 2, and it was pretty mild that year, so maybe it's gotten worse. I don't see how the group promotes public drunkenness in any form, since it's pretty secluded drunkenness. But honestly, it just sounds like you are exaggerating. Widespread illegal drug use? I think you are reaching pretty far there, but again, I wasn't there this year. Could you walk around and smell people smoking marijuana? I don't doubt it. Were these people pretty stupid to be smoking it away from their camp sites? In my opinion, yes. Does that constitute widespread illegal drug use? No.

Basically, it seems like you had some pretty absurd expectations, and I don't really see many people agreeing with you.

I could be wrong though.

[Od1n]

Sounds like you were expecting a renaissance fair and got a soccer game.

Welcome to Belegarth!

I am just curious, did you do anything to try and make the medieval experience any better such as wearing garb? or did you walk around in jeans and a hoody the whole time? Just curious.

[Brooder]

AudriSampson, from the sounds of it, you are taking this too seriously. Paraphrasing what Bo (one of my unit's commanders) once said, "We are hitting each other with foam sticks. We shoudn't take ourselves too seriously."

I came into Belegarth expecting something similar to what you sound like. I've quickly found out otherwise; and I like that better. I like the relaxed, easy going, and party atmosphere. The point of Belegarth, just like any game and sport, is to have fun. And if a person becomes too serious, then it isn't fun anymore. Thus, no point in doing it.

By the way, if you don't want to drink, have sex, or do any illegal drugs, then don't do it silly! No one is going to hold it against you for not doing any of these things.

[AudriSampson]

First let me apologize for posting while I was still mad about some things. So with a calmer mind I write a follow up post to clarify some thoughts and answer some comments.

To follow up on the drug use statement. Pot is illegal! I did not appreciate my ex drug addict Lp telling me she is fiending for pot since in her words everyone got stoned. Im sure she is exaggerating but pot is still illegal and should not be at a public event in any way shape or form.

My expectations were definetly a little high. I had pictured a civil-war reinactment with foam weapons set in the middle ages. I did not realize that there are different levels of reinactment as I found out by reading alot of websites this evening.

As far as Kickapoo park I can definetly see some downsides with having non members around, but that gives the chance for visibility and makes it easier to go get stuff when needed.

Yes I was guilty of no garb. I had just gotten of work and had to bring my Lp down and decided to stay for a visit. Soccer is pretty fun though , and I figure Ill retry Belegarth if a local chapter gets formed here in Danville, A friend of mine is thinking about doing it so we will see

Audri Michelle Sampson

[Troll]

events are not meant for tons of people to watch, and i find it to be much better if there are only belegarth people around at belegarth events. leave the recruiting to practices, i say

[Big King Jimmy]

I figure Ill retry Belegarth if a local chapter gets formed here in Danville, A friend of mine is thinking about doing it so we will see

Their used to be a realm in Danville, Middle Earth.

Belegarth is what it is. What you expected and what we are aren't the same thing. :: shrug :: we're hard to describe. But we love what we do.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Actually I support everything Audri has said and agree with Winfang.

This is why you don't get people to Bel events anymore. It the lack of support from the general populace.

You don't care about non-fighters huh? Who do you think makes your food, makes your garb, takes time out of their day to take care of your sorry * when you get sick or busted?

All those people are typically non-fighters. Feast and garb quality has gone down at events because non-fighters don't feel welcome at belegarth events.

Why the hell are you running potentially new members, fighter or not, out of the sport jsut because you don't give a ****. That's saying you don't give a **** about the event.

And people wonder why Rag numbers were record-setting this year.

If you don't give a ****, don't post. You arent worth the oxygen.

[Winfang]

When opportunities and sugguestion are given to improve the game we prove that we're content with the status quo and resist change. And it's a wonder why Dagorhir's Ragnarok has over a thousand in attendance and fighting field larger then even Oktoberfest.

[Xooyan]

Well I think some of my points about why I don't go out of my way to go to Arm have been proven as well as some of the many points I made about welcoming new people. The responses to this person's post should have reflected a willingness to listen and respect her opinion. She clearly made some errors in what we are about, but that could have been dealt with kindly and informatively.

Everyone talks about wanting more folks to fight and having more stuff going on at events and then wonders why Belegarth is growing slowly and having trouble retaining members. This kind of behavior is why. Belegarth absolutely MUST learn how to encourage new membership through welcoming attitudes and events geared toward promoting new members.

[Ora]

Its truly a sad state of affairs when it comes to this. The comments I've read in response to Audri's observations are simply discouraging, disheartening, and quite frankly, beyond disgusting. I cannot believe the cavalier attitude some of you are having towards "guests" who might well have brought more people into our game. Instead of embracing and learning from all of this you're just kick it to the curb. Its people like you who'll bring our game and our history to a screeching halt. Reiterating what both Fang and Xooyan have stated, no wonder Ragnarok's numbers are so high and ours so low. Its your ridiculous outlook and utter contempt for continuing a tradition that has been going on for more than twenty years that keeps our organization from growing and becoming more than what it has been. I'm so completely * off right now my only thoughts are: HOW F#CKING DARE YOU speak as if you represent our entire organization!

[Kharn]

lol, this is ridiculous. It seems like you guys have felt this way for a long time and were just desperate to try and make someone look bad at the same time that you expressed your viewpoints.

The bottom line is: the expections and claims of the original poster are ludicrous.

She did bring up points that I absolutely agree with, but I can't comment too much on them since I'm only able to make it out for saturday this year.

Pot Smoking needs to be confined to your camp if you are gonna do it, even at sin night. I don't know how much she is exaggerating, but I should not be able to walk around the campfire/main area and smell weed. You are just being a moron and putting the entire group in jeopardy. I still maintain that saying 'widespread illegal drug use' is just a ridiculous, sensationalist claim.

Garb: Again, I can't comment on this too much, I haven't been there yet, but I have seen alot of complaints in general about our waning standards for garb. I know mine has been pretty lousy for a long time, but I'm spending some time and money to improve it this year. But wearing a tabard over your t-shirt with sweatpants and nikes is not garb and shouldn't be permitted at a national event.

Now upon rereading my own post, it does seem antagonistic, so I apologize for that, that was not my intent.

As Jimmy said, Middle Earth was the foam fighting realm of Danville. I'm pretty that if you wanted to get them fighting again you could, maybe by advertising through one of the game stores there or something. Danville had it's own problems, but that is neither here nor their.

[Magpie Saegar]

I read the first post here, by Audri, and I agreed instantly... I've been doing Belegarth for nearly three years now, and I've loved most of it. Lately, though, the grandeur has been wearing off and I've begun to see things more how Audri saw them. I think the reason that this didn't happen sooner is because I've had the wonderful chance to be around my friends here in Rhun.

I would also like to express my shock at Bodmin, Kharn, and Bruder's posts, and echo Ora's frustrations.


Audri: Events, especially when you have high expectations, don't always live up. This isn't as applicable if you are a combatant, but if you are a non-fighter, then yes, I can certainly imagine. Our events, in my limited experience, currently do little to cater outside of the current-norm mindset.

I'd certainly encourage you to get involved in practices, however. This sport can be extremely fun, and it can provide a means for good exercise, stress relief, self-expression, and social interaction.

We just need more people like you to speak their minds and then step up and help us do something to fix things. Thank you for your words, even if they were in frustration. I'm glad you chose to help us rather than just leaving and never thinking about attending again.

:-D


Also, in response to your claim #2 about location... I'm not sympathetic about how much you've driven to or from the even, if you're somewhat local. When I got to events, it's a five hour drive each direction. There are some people who have more. There are many criteria for choosing a park, I am sure, but proximity to local's workplaces should not be one of them.
This isn't a major issue, or anything, but I wanted to respond to something from your original post. I do agree with most else of what you said.

[Xooyan]

Pot smoking at an event, whether in your camp or not should not occur. It is illegal and should be reported to the authorities.

Your post was not just antagonistic it was uncalled for. I appreciate your appology, but I don't think you really get how much that kind of response hurts our sport/game.

People, we must start thinking twice BEFORE talking.

[Ora]

Also, in response to your claim #2 about location... I'm not sympathetic about how much you've driven to or from the even, if you're somewhat local. When I got to events, it's a five hour drive each direction. There are some people who have more. There are many criteria for choosing a park, I am sure, but proximity to local's workplaces should not be one of them.
This isn't a major issue, or anything, but I wanted to respond to something from your original post. I do agree with most else of what you said.

I think she was complaining, in general, about the distance to the nearest stores/supplies... not how far from work. Most people at the events like a store nearby for ice and food. From what I recall, Forest Glen is quite the haul to the nearest stores.

[Soo Ma Tai]

1. I understand that there is not a lot for non-combatants to do at events. Keep in mind that we are a medieval combat society, not a medieval historical society, so nearly all of our efforts go toward making the fighting aspect of our game better. That said, there are many of us, at least out west, here who are trying to do more than just fight. We are trying to create a better environment to all.

2.Though I sympathize with you on this one, finding a park that will let us us their facilities can be very difficult, especially when trying to get them under budget so that events don't cost an arm and a leg.

3. You are right, and though we try, making a completely medieval camp is very expensive and most of us play this game because the cost is not so great. Honestly, most of us can barely afford to go to events. So though I feel for you on this one, and would like to see more medieval looking camps, it's going to be a somewhat slow process.

4. Sin Night: Sin night is a tradition at long events, and gives the players a night to relax, have fun, and simply party with the friends they have made over many years. Though pot may be illegal, so is underage drinking, theft, underage sex. Since we generally take care of these illegal activities in group, I don't see any reason to involve the police with a couple people smokin a joint. (sorry Xooyan, just giving my opinion)

It sucks that you had an unfavorable experience at your first event. I too, felt much the same way after my first event. It was totally not what I was expecting, and I was a bit disappointed in the lack of medieval feel. That said, I now go to events to meet up with old friends, meet new ones, and hang out with 300 people who are just out to have a good time. I hope that you do continue with Belegarth, if you or your friends need help starting a realm, I can easily be reached by PM or e-mail * stygia@mail.com and I would be glad to offer any help I can.

[Mekoot Rowan]

Quite a few valid points have been brought up from a number of people. Even Bodmin (in some ways) has a good point.

Some of Audri's concerns are rather far fetched. As has been pointed out, there is almost no way to give a real "medieval feel" as long as there are nylon tents and foam weapons laying around. This having been said, there also needs to be some kind of standard, and I think it really revolves around good garb.

I wasn't at Armageddon, but I know first hand that belegarth parties can get out of hand by the stupid actions of a few (or just one person in my case). Unfortunately, the majority of people get blamed for the actions of a few people. This isn't fair, but that's how it is.

Speaking directly to the drug use, I think it's unfair to call it widespread. If all you did was smell it then how do you know it's not just one person? If you saw three people then how do you know that it wasn't just those three people. I'm sure that there are certain camps where such things are more likely to occur, but you can usually solve the problem by just not going to those camps. If there really was "widespread" drug use at the sin night festivities, then perhaps this was something that should have been dealt with then rather than waiting until later to post it on the internet.

If you personally want to report everyone you see that is doing something illegal, then that is your own perogative. Personally though I try to keep myself in a live and let live frame of mind. If they're not hurting you or your property then perhaps you shouldn't worry about it.

I sympathize with your friend's fiending, things are hard to steer clear of when they're waved in your face.

I speak for myself, not Belegarth as a whole. I don't think that anyone can do that.

[Pryderi]

Kickapoo state park is not friendly to a weeklong camping event, or even a decent sized weekend event. Their group camp is really small, maybe large enough to accomodate 100 participants maximum. There are no readily available shower facilities at Kickapoo(unless they have been installed recently), and the only viable fighting fields are 1 mile or more from the group camp. Also, it is almost the same distance from Kickapoo to town for shopping as it is from Forest Glen. We used to have events at Kickapoo a LONG time ago, but stopped for the above reasons.

[Ora]

Kickapoo state park is not friendly to a weeklong camping event, or even a decent sized weekend event. Their group camp is really small, maybe large enough to accomodate 100 participants maximum. There are no readily available shower facilities at Kickapoo(unless they have been installed recently), and the only viable fighting fields are 1 mile or more from the group camp. Also, it is almost the same distance from Kickapoo to town for shopping as it is from Forest Glen. We used to have events at Kickapoo a LONG time ago, but stopped for the above reasons.

Thanks for explaining about Kickapoo, Pryderi.
I don't think the problem is the park, however. The problem is the way we represent ourselves to the general public and the things they see. Although most of our events take place in pretty well isolated areas of parks, because we're in state parks we're always subject to "curious Joe/Jane" walking/driving through to see what's going on. I know we've had that happen at DD events. We never know who's going to drive through and I can think of a few very close calls and even encounters with park rangers who were routinely doing their jobs by checking on things.
I know there's no way to do away with the nylon tents (I for one may have a pop-up camper at my next event) and I'm not suggesting we do so. What we may want to consider is the amount of traffic generated by people who're just too lazy to walk to weapons check or to another area of the camp to visit. If the showers are close within walking distance then walk.

[savetuba]

I know there's no way to do away with the nylon tents and I'm not suggesting we do so. What we may want to consider is the amount of traffic generated by people who're just too lazy to walk to weapons check or to another area of the camp to visit. If the showers are close within walking distance then walk.

Could we not screen moddern tents from view? like take some of those reed screens and tie them to poles. will look like a fence, hiding modern tents, keeping the entrances to one's camp down to a select few so as to help prevent theft/gaurd camp from attack. Not to mention if the tent areas were walled off then the average walker would see less of billy drinking from a beer can in his own camp.

-Estrella war (27?) reference.

[Ora]

I guess people could do whatever they'd like to disguise their camping areas. Those screens are a little pricey (I was going to build a small fence in my backyard and they were about $25 for 4x12ft lengths) Some units have been known to build sheet walls (wood/bamboo poles with sheets/cloth stretched and attached) around their encampments. Some people drape banners on and around their tents too.
Anything to help disguise modern day things are always helpful.

[Theros the Large]

I have just returned from Amageddon and I thought it was one of the best events I have ever attended.

I am very sorry that this young lady had a bad time.

Sin night was VERY mild this year. The most risque thing that went on was the wet tee-shirt contest. Oh, we had a keg of beer and a glow in the dark *. I did not witness any public sexual acts or see anyone doing anything illegal around the fire.

People who want more entertainment for non-coms should step up and get the ball rolling. For example, there was a bellydance workshop run by Skada and Mistie on friday afternoon. They took the initiative to give something back outside of the fighting field.

Was this person there for the Bardic games on friday night? It ran for several hours and was a great deal of fun. No swords required there either...

For someone to say there was NOTHING at the event for non-coms is ridiculous.

[Nuri]

1. As a non-com, I share your frustration, but opening our events to non-com activities is something we are beginning to do. There was a bellydance workshop in the middle of the week, and the bardic games Friday night, which was very well attended.

This is something that needs to be worked on, yes, but we are making strides. We need to gauge what people are interested in, before we can plan these activities. Most of the things we are interested in, haven't made the jump to the fighting events.

2. Pryderi explained well why we aren't at kickapoo, but I will be honest: We like seclusion. Part of the reason I love Forest Glen is the change from city to small town, to corn field to forest. That being said, most of the places that will take us are in the middle of nowhere. There is something to be said to trying to stay at the event.

3. Wouldn't the first thing to be seen was Troll? One of the things a realmmate wants to work on is setting a mood at Troll itself, but coming into forest glen, you hit the fighting field.

Also, we run at full capacity for cars. There isn't a way around that. It's the same at almost every event I have been too.

4. I don't condone illegal behavior at events. It's stupid and it puts everyone at risk. I didn't see or smell any drug use, so I can't say anything. But the point of Sin Night, is well, Sinning? Other parties are not as high-strung, and there are quite a few people who enjoy sitting in camp more.

Now, I do agree with some of the sentiments -- we need to set a tone at events that is well -- out of the ordinary. We aren't period and we shouldn't attempt to be -- when was the last time you saw a goblyn in your history book -- but that doesn't preclude haven't an "out of time" experience. I think personally, getting one piece of nice garb, and a wooden bowl, and nice mug goes a long way after fighting. You don't need the wardrobe I have, or my basket of feast gear, but make the attempt. I don't care what people have in their own camps, honestly.

And we do need to work on recruiting and maintaining non-coms -- with real activities to do (and no, "sitting at troll" does not count as an activity.) Doing things so that the fighters can play is not why non-coms should be around, we need to develop our own skill set. (And many are....there are a lot of dancers, a growing group of entertainers that come to events to show off their skills, I prepare music for bardic games, etc)

There has been a laziness lately, but we can come out of it, and there are some groups and people who want to spearhead it.

So lets talk about the good, okay? Geddon had amazing feasts. The city fighting looked fantastic. The rain was mild in comparison to others. I'd say there was less drama, but I'm with the realm that ran the event -- theres always drama. I saw more people in good garb than ever. We've stopped handing people paper plates at feasts and expect people to provide their own. There was a lot less people being lazy and not helping out. This event was the smoothest I've ever helped run.

[Davit]

I am going to jump on board with Theros and say I am sorry that Audri did not have a good time at the event.

I am also going to join in with some of the points Xooyan and Ora have stated, some, ok a lot, of the posters previous to them need to learn to be more welcoming to new people and not get their jollies off by being a jerk on a web-board.

To everyone: please remember that people who post here, as Ora stated DO NOT SPEAK FOR EVERYONE. I know that some of you have, and still do, help to run events and know that a lot is out of your control.

Oh and as too Feast quality going down, obviously you have not been at most of the events in the last few years, feast quality in general has been going up in my opinion, and due to a bunch of the people co-ordinating events, the amount of people bringing feast gear has increased. (people realizing that we aren't going to provide is a great motivator)

And while I totally agree with taking care of non-fighters, because I to believe that it is one of the keys to expanding our sport, please don't try to use the arguement that everything done at an event outside of the actual fighting is done by non-fighters, because I know that a lot is, but Brenna you seem to think that everything is. And we do get people to Belegarth events every year, Springwars and Oktober fest are growing to over 500 people each for a weekend, one event does not make an organization.

And we are getting better at getting more people to realize that non-fighters do have a place in our sport, and we are working to make more people, both fighters and non-fighters feel welcome and safe in Belegarth.

[Lady Feri]

Audri you are just * off because your boy friend and life partner wanted to join belegarth and you don't want them to. And you were only there for one hour while we were on break for supper.

your opinions are NOTmine.
to answer each of your remarks

I am a friend of Lady Feri and some other members in Danville area, so I knew that most of them were going to be at armageddon, and that I would probably be running errands and other things for Feri and my other friends. I did not stay very long when I was there, but it was long enough to come to a few conclusions that I figured I would share to maybe help you out.


(What?)

1. Not everyone is a fighter: After looking over your flier and sitting in Lady Feri's tent I realized that there was NOTHING geared towards Non-combatants. There are so many opportunities to teach History or the Culture of the Middle Ages.

(why didn't you take the belly dancing class or my caligraphy class or kestrels jewelry making class or learn to make a staff like others did, or take part in the camera scavenger hunt.)

2. Location: Come on guys couldn't you get Kickapoo park or somewhere within a few miles of grocery stores, department stores or locals work places. Ive spent more money on gas running my roomie and my LP to and from the event then there registration cost.

Kickapoo has been used in the past but since the civil war reenactors burned down a building no reenactments ate allowed there and the price ice 6 times the amount as forest glen.And I am the mini mall so no one has to leave the event to go anywhere.

3. Presentation: The first thing I saw as I came in was cars and sleeping tents. Had my friends not said were here I probably would of kept on going down the road figuring the event was further down. It really did not feel as if I were walking into a different time period just a huge campsite with oddly dressed campers. Also on this note I would strongly start to encourage better costuming and behavior while around the camp because I really did not see the difference between Belagarth members and Ampt Guard members (hopefully I spelled Ampt Guard right), after being told by everyone that Belegarth was a step up from Ampt Guard in there friendliness, fighting and realism.

The battle field did not have cars on it and that is where the realism is to be. I sleep in my van to protect my stand...I fought the battle of the racoon all week long. and the sleeping area does not need to be period we are not the SCA.

4. Sin Night: Does your group need to promote wide scale public drunkeness and Sex to have fun? On top of all that we add wide spread illegal drug use by your members at the event. Most groups would shut down there events for those behaviors rather then encourage it. Truthfully if your event was held in a more populated area, such as Kickapoo, arrest would have been made, and your event canceled.

Hello the carnival of sin rented the carnival games from US. and I saw ;no illegal drugs used and if you did why didn't you tell security...you are at fault for that.

I understand that attendance is down this year (as of my writing this) and I sure hope it gets better, but I honestly can not see that happening if all visitors have experiences like mine.

This is not open to the public it is for members enjoyment only...are you a memeber...did you pay 40 to get in. did you sign a waiver?

Now on a positive note my room mate has had alot of fun. Since he's been there this week he has learned to Fight, bought garb and is still probably fighting in the overnight fight as I write this. He lives in a house with two girls and a girl cat so its a good chance for him to be the big macho aggressive guy in a format where its appreciated. Thanks to the fighters that helped him out.

And that just ticked you off that Mike and Angie could have fun without you. I work my but off to make belegarth a better place and you spit on my work. thanks so much...F R I E N D.....



Yashim naomi ferranna- Lady Feri- Dee Polasek of the Twisted Unicorn !*#%^&*&^%$#%** I am so insulted that you attached my name to this pile of reeking gutter slime from the depth of insecurity.

[Ursyne]

Considering my other half is not a combatant, we basically just had this discussion for awhile. We agreed on most everything (with minor grievances). Here is what both of us have to say if you would like our opinion:

1. Non Period Attire/Tents/Areas.
Cost is a HUGE factor. Garb is pretty good as I saw alot of colorful/fantasy like stuff going on. Period stuff is great and all, but this is a "sport". It is centered around fighting, and some of that good looking period attire costs an arm and a leg. Instead of buying the proper material for a Great Kilt, we just took some material from the local store and learned how to create a half kilt. JUST that alone, $65. Now, if it was bought and looked more period (mind you I am a 54 waist) it would have cost about $200. The tents, good luck finding a period tent for under $200 for a two person, ours cost $50 for a 5 man tent.


2. Non combatant activities.
Fighting is the primary part that I see. He sees the idea of having things to do crafty items an idea, but to get other things introduced might draw more people would be a bit of a push by event coordinators. It takes a lot of time and effort to get a place for fighting/camping (I know because we are planning an event in September) is a pain. SCA has problems due to some of the things they do for their events due to the complexity. We have foam weapons, tents, food and drinks. If someone wants to start up something outside of that, go for it! No use complaining as he found out that just talking with people is a GREAT way to get some people to sing or dance around a campfire.


3. Location far from stores.
OK, so I forgot a few items. I had to have someone drive into town and then pick them up and come back. We are camping. Prepare for the worst, and your trips will be limited. I now see how people go camping and stay out for weeks on end as they get items specifically made for camping (canned foods, ice chests, changes of clothes, etc). I preferably would stay in camp area to hang out with people I have met, or have yet to meet, rather than go around and get a dinner at a restaurant.


4. Friendliness of people.
For people stating that others are unfriendly, I remember talking to her friend and helping him learn to fight some. You can not tell me that in the few events that I have gone, I have not met people. I went to Octoberfest in '06, knew ONE PERSON, and came out meeting about 25 people on a "Hi, how are you doing" basis. Every event, those friendships grow, as I know that I was hanging with Wolfpack at their camp and was invited to go there and hang out by a few people. It takes time to get to know people, no matter WHERE you go. Oh, and thanks for the smokes Joyous!


Basically in a nutshell, Belegarth is not perfect. Do we have fun, hell yeah! My first event was kinda like "Oh, is that all?". Now, I look forward to each event knowing that I can depend on great people, great food, great times! I was expecting more of a "ren fair" type thing, but THIS is why I keep coming back. I do not HAVE to talk period, act period, or even care about how goblins really were lepers or disabled people or some crazy thing (just to prove they exist). I for one enjoy having some of the fantasy in it, just because it can make it more fun for me and others. Thanks for actually finishing this horridly long response, and see you all at our September event (more details soon), and Octoberfest!

[Ursyne]

Wow, just wow Feri... and I thought that raccoon took a beating from you! She is right, when one person speaks, it is not for the group (that is for the War Council I think?). Love and hugs to you!

[Thorondor]

WOW Lady Feri...sucks about the raccoon. He get any good beads or clothes from you? You have knives, you should use them!

Talked to Angie (my fiancee, non-com). Following is all from her, but it has been a few years that she's been to an event.

First thing she said is she loves the site. The year she came (2005), we camped with Wolfpack and she loved how they took pride in being part of the group. HH, Uruk-hai, and a couple other groups I can think off of the top of my head are this way as well.

She loved sin night as well as the belly dancing & drumming as well.

Maybe banners & decorations for camping areas. If you want medieval tents and that's all, bring enough for everyone.

Other than that...Lady Feri, use your sharp, shiny things to your advantage!

~Thorondor~
~Stash Zabriski~

[Big King Jimmy]

All those people are typically non-fighters. Feast and garb quality has gone down at events because non-fighters don't feel welcome at belegarth events.

First of all, I do understand that having non-fighters who are enthusiastic on helping Belegarth grow improves garb quality, and I would totally agree with you on that point.

But on feasts, I'm never seen such a wrong statement in my entire life. Cooking is not a non-com specialty or a fighter specialty. You can be a fighter and be an awesome cook. I can't actually think of a single non-fighter that was involved with Friday feast this event. Not saying they weren't there, but Theros was THE cook. You don't have to be a fighter or a non-fighter, you just can't be skinny

Troll was awesome, I roll in, I'm greeted with smiles and laughter. Until we get professionally trained customer service agents to roll into our events and run troll for us, we can only do so well. 5 days in the heat and roughing it, you can only be so chipper.

It's not that people are afraid of that pot smoking hippy, it's just that most people don't give a ****. I don't do drugs, don't ever really want to, but I believe in minding my own business, and that's not MY business. You want to get rid of the potheads? That's great, I mean, we'd have a lot more space... entire camps vacated. Parts of Forest Glen would look like we thought the ground was tainted.

There is NO WAY to do a quiet camp at Forest Glen. I've thought about this one over and over again. We get up to 600 or so at Oct fest, and it feels like that place is way way way overpopulated. We've got main fire in back, where it has to be because we're not allowed to drum in the front of the event. We've got the field up front, and frankly that's simply not something we can move. Good fighting groups usually are the crazier partyers, and they take camps near the front, while people who like to party with main fire take the back. Quiet camp would be left with... the middle? Just doesn't work.

As for making the site look more medieval... I'm sure parking behind the camps will help shield the cars from sight. We'll just need to drive through peoples camps to accomplish that. I'll start with yours. And we'll set up a couple of miles of wall to hide the nylon from peoples eyes. I'm sure people who want to hide those tents will cover the bill.

PRACTICES are for recruiting new members. At PRACTICES we should get people out, get them fighting, and get them excited about the next event. You should be having lots of one day events so that they can get a taste without the commitment of a whole weekend. EVENTS are for members, for us. They aren't geared at all, in the slightest, towards people who aren't familiar with our organization. We have to come out of our shells at practices, put ourselves on the auction block and try to sell what we do. Recruitment at times can feel downright embarrassing. We are at events to feel completely comfortable, immersed totally in a belegarth environment shielded from the ridicule of the general populace. If I was ever at a weekend event, and was heckled by a Hawaiian shirt and jeans wearing pug, I'd pack my ****, demand a refund and get the hell out of dodge. That event would be dead to me, I'd strike it from my memory, and recommend that fighters not touch it with a 10 foot polearm. That is NOT why I come to events.

Do we have work to do? Yes, I see a big leap, either forward or back, on the horizon as an organization. I think arguments that have been brewing between conservative and liberal belegrim are at a boiling point. These are interesting times, we must tread carefully.

Armageddon was AMAZING. I had a FANTASTIC time. This has been the black sheep of events for a couple of years now, but it's absurd. We should improve the sport, and we should help non-fighters feel more comfortable, but instead of trying to improve events that are so-so we just get rid of them? Sounds pretty hypocritical to me.

Also, just because someones post was not as............ "eloquent" as yours doesn't make it okay to tell them you think they should die. You really just don't get this live and let live concept at all.

I'm so completely * off right now my only thoughts are: HOW F#CKING DARE YOU speak as if you represent our entire organization!

ditto

[Thorondor]

You don't have to be a fighter or a non-fighter, you just can't be skinny

WRONG! You just have to like to eat! All 160lbs of me proves that if you eat enough, you can cook

[Lady Feri]

Mostly the raccoon was after the food, the first night he gat all the big bags of chips. We just packed everything up in the cargo carrier at night and padlocked the Ice Freezer (to protectct it from the goblins ...yeah no green ice.!) But he was huge! he came up to my knee caps when he was on all fours. I opened the van door and there he was....I yelled Scoot and boy did he ever.


By the way does everyone want me to order an ice machine like this again? I ordered 2 loads...260 the first time and 200 bags the second time....I had 100 bags left over but I was expecting more people on the last weekend. The whole thing cost me 670.00 to rent the machine and have ice on site, so let me know so I can save up the cash to do this.....

[Nuri]

Brenna, if you think feast quality has gone down, you obviously weren't at geddon. Chicken Pesto, Barbecued Porkchops, Apple Cider Garlic Rosemary Pork....honey butter. And what the hamburger and a hot dog feast lacked in subtlety, they made up for in thrift and amount.

Holy crap, I've never been to a better event with food, and I've been to Ma Bell!


Feri, the ice chest was wonderful. I'm not sure how much you will need, but particularly for the warmer events (I'm not sure how much you'd sell at Oktoberfest) it was very nice to have around.

[faline]

How dare you judge our honest and true opinons on an event you yourselves didn't bother to go to? HOW DARE YOU?

I'm sorry you had a crappy Geddon Audri. But, from what I'm hearing you didn't try. This was THE best Geddon I've ever been to. What we lacked in numbers we made up for in spirit and I'm proud that I was able to help where I could.

Fang, this isn't Dagorhir. If it was, we'd have all been cheated and harassed for a week for not conforming to their ideas. I'd rather take our smaller field then have to deal with their brainwashing. As for their '600' fighter attendance, that's bunk considering that half the people that fought on Saturday were only out for an hour before they gave up fighting for the day and that all heralds and photographers on the field were counted.

I don't know about you, but I'm * proud to be a part of Belegarth. Any contact I have with Dagorhirrim is usually spent singing the praises of the * child because ya know what? We're better. We're more fun. And we throw one hell of a week long event.

It has been long maintained that Belegarth is a community of fighters. Hard core fighters. Our non-coms know and understand this. And it's not that they're not appreciated, because they are. I love the non-coms in Wolfpack. Since my move they've been ridiculously welcoming and have offered to teach me a ton. But they understand that this is foam fighting at it's finest.

It's not Ragnarok, where you'll be cheated as soon as your welcomed to the event. It's not Dagorhir where they'll expect you to sign up just to fight because they're afraid of us.

This is Belegarth and I truly believe that all of us that attended Geddon were able to feel the love and kinship we have amongst ourselves in this sport. I'm glad I went to Rag this year. It made Geddon that much sweeter to watch people lined up for feast and realize that every person in that line is a friend.

[Argyll]

geddon's not on my list of events for next year, based on a lot of the reasons mentioned.

primarily raging egoes, and people being made unwelcome based on limited time in the sport, fighter or non-fighter. These sentiments were being blown out like a volcano at bardic circle friday night.

[Ora]

I want to jump back into this, but I'd don't want to do so until we all move this conversation to the new board. http://www.belegarth.com
GO REGISTER and join the new site!
Remember, at the end of this month this board will be locked down so the sooner we get everyone moved the better!
Thanks!

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Brenna, if you think feast quality has gone down, you obviously weren't at geddon. Chicken Pesto, Barbecued Porkchops, Apple Cider Garlic Rosemary Pork....honey butter. And what the hamburger and a hot dog feast lacked in subtlety, they made up for in thrift and amount.

Holy crap, I've never been to a better event with food, and I've been to Ma Bell!

Then my bad. Just a good number of past events I have been too lately have been going down, food wise. I still can't forget the pizza or spaghetti feasts. *shudder* Though if Theros was the cook, then I can take that on name alone.

Jimmy:

I never said it was a non-com specialty and I know most feast-preparers are fighters. However, they give up a large chunk of their figthing time to do it. I'm not saying this is bad and I appreciate that greatly!

However, what I am saying is that if we could draw more non-coms into the community, fighters wouldn't necessarily have to give up their fighting time for preparing a feast unless they really wanted to. And I have 2 fighters in my house who are professional chefs. Their food rocks, but I don't want to ask them to give up their hard-earned vacation and fighting time just to make us awesome food.

I'm just trying to make a point that more non-coms means more fighting time for some and the potential for better, well-thought out and executed feasts overall.

[Nuri]

Their food rocks, but I don't want to ask them to give up their hard-earned vacation and fighting time just to make us awesome food.

I'm just trying to make a point that more non-coms means more fighting time for some and the potential for better, well-thought out and executed feasts overall.

Oh Bull. Events are my vacation too. It seems like you just want more non-coms to do the work. What do we get out of it? Why should I have to do the work for fighters? I don't exist so that they can fight.

Everyone should be doing the work at events. Not just the non-coms.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Oi...that's not what I'm saying. I've been the cook at several events, and a non-com too, out of choice, not because I was the only non-com there.

I'm saying get non-coms in who want to do the planning/cooking/whatever (they are out there) and everyone pitches in to help. From my personal experience I've seen feasts and other non-com aspects suffer because there is a fighter in the planning position who doesn't want to be there and only half-asses it.

*shrug* If the group as a whole wants to lose out on those non-com aspects, so be it. Just means they will be losing members who find those aspects appealing along with the combat aspects.

Nuri, I really respect you as a person, non-com, and com (when you at leastused to come out on occasion) and really don't want to argue about this. You should know that I am more than just a stick jock or a straight up fighter. If you think the way things are going suits you, rock on. I just don't want to see some of the strong reasons I joined to die out due to apathetic people.

I'm glad to see some steps have been taken to make things better, but my personal experience with most national events has gotten steadily worse.

[Nuri]

I'm basing this argument solely on what you have written. From the way you worded it, it came off as "We need more non-coms so the fighters don't have to do work." I've heard this from a lot of people as of late, and it is annoying (particularly since, as non-fighters, we don't get a lot of recognition anyways).

Events are my vacation too, I have other things I do during events as well.

Don't recruit non-coms to do the work. Recruit non-coms because they add more depth to the society part in BMCS. Get people who like event planning and running to do it, that way you don't get people doing it half-assed because they want to fight.

[/b]

[Kestrel Redwing]

As a half-combatant/half-non-com, I feel I should add my voice to this.

Audri, I think it's pretty obvious that you bristled a few feathers with your comments, and even though you claim that you were angry at the time of your post, you would not have written anything in the first place if you did not possess the opinions you expressed at least to some degree. You were present at Armageddon for an hour, or at the most an hour and a half. In that time, you sat with Lady Feri and myself in her tent. I have only been a non-combatant for a few years, but I am still a non-combatant. Serving as a merchant is something that non-coms can do. Please note that you did not even ask about non-fighting activities while you were visiting. If you had, we would have told you about feasts, Sin Night, the Bardic Games, etc. If you had asked me to, I would have shown you how to make jewellry, as I would for anyone who asked.

The claims you made as to illegal drug use are, in my views, preposterous. During the time you sat with us in Lady Feri's tent, not one person came by who even remotely smelled of marijuana. If you were thinking of the person who strolled in with a hookah, last I heard those were perfectly legal, and therefore can be legally used by someone who is of age to do so. You have no right to make outrageous claims based on a few people who you only encountered because you happened to be sitting somewhere.

As far as garb goes **raises hand** guilty as charged as far as lack of authentic-looking garb, but as a full-time student and a full-time worker I don't necessarily have the time to make good-looking garb. Sometimes simple, unmarked t-shirts and chopped-off sweats are the best I can do. I honestly don't think you were looking very closely, because there was some fantastic garb out there last week. Did you see Fox's? Or Madog's? What about Gut's? Or Pandora's? Or Mistie's? The fact that we are both a Medieval and a Fantasy combat society gives us freedom in how we look.

All you did, Audri, was spend time as an observer and then make claims that would only be appropriate to make if you had been a participant and had actually seen problems. Maybe consider joining us for the week next year before you decide to voice your opinion.

[Ora]

I'm basing this argument solely on what you have written. From the way you worded it, it came off as "We need more non-coms so the fighters don't have to do work." I've heard this from a lot of people as of late, and it is annoying (particularly since, as non-fighters, we don't get a lot of recognition anyways).
Events are my vacation too, I have other things I do during events as well.
Don't recruit non-coms to do the work. Recruit non-coms because they add more depth to the society part in BMCS. Get people who like event planning and running to do it, that way you don't get people doing it half-assed because they want to fight.
[/b]

Nuri, I for one agree with your statement and I'm one of the ones shouting to keep the fighters on the fields and the non-fighters "behind the scenes". NO, we shouldn't be recruiting non-fighters just to work. I'm saying, if the non-fighters have nothing to do and are looking to help then they should know who to see to volunteer. The problem is non-fighters, in many cases, are made to feel so unwelcome we lose them before they get a chance to really know more about our organization. Currently there isn't much at all for non-fighters to do, so I for one, volunteer my time at Troll, helping with feast or wherever help is needed... unfortunately, as far as spending time at events goes, it's work. But again, I for one, don't mind.
I think another thing non-fighters could do that doesn't really involve work... and they'd be on the field. TAKING PICTURES! See a Marshall, don a yellow tabard and take pictures. We never seem to have enough!
Has anyone else noticed our lonely thread here on the board while everyone else is on the new http://www.Belegarth.com site?

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

I'm sorry it came off that way. Definitely NOT my intention. I'm actually in complete agreement with you and Ora about this.

[bo1]

i don't understand.

i never once had a person come up to me and say, " i have nothing to do". if i did you can bet your * i would have done something.

food going down???????????? if having the 3rd best feast ever is down then sorry. This was the opinion of the 25 or so veterans that i talked to.
names you ask, Kyrian, Claws, Tinman, Bahkdar, Joyous, Cuba, ect ect
There was a mass chear for gods sake. Burgers and dogs was good and theros is all i am going to say about saturdays feast.

Fighting was awesome.

(intended for the creator of this crap)
not enough people, then stop **** on my hard work. my plan was to revitalize geddon cause i feel is was the red headed step child for the last couple of years. I think i did enough to get 300 next year on word of mouth.

to end, you are the problem, you do nothing to help at all, you sit there behind your keyboard and type like you are bullet proof.
challenge: i formally challenge you to run a one day event, with feast and some noncom stuff, if you can do it better than the rest of us i will hold your opinion in high regaurd, if not, you fail and your opinion and posts should be ignored.

don't you dare respond to me unless it is in the "upcoming events page"

bo out......

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

If you are directing that at me Bo, look in the events forum. I'm planning 2 events...and they are both weekend events, not all day-ers..I've already done that.

As for feasts going down, did I specifically say 'Geddon? No. I said feasts in general. There are always exceptions to that trend.

Specify who you have decided to direct your atack on before this turns into a * contest.

[Theros the Large]

I think Bo was talking to the person who started all of this nonsense.

I can understand his feelings. Bo put his heart and soul into making This Armageddon the best it could be. I have never seen such selfless devotion and dedication to excellence as his.

I wouldn't want someone bad mouthing my hard work either.

[katina]

This event rocked.

I don't know what the heck Argyll is talking about with the Bardic circle, I think it got a little "political rally-ish" but if being proud to be part of this group is a bad thing then I don't wanna be right. I don't know of a time when I saw anyone trying to make a newb feel unwelcome, unless they were cheating on the field or causing problems off the field, and if you come to my event and try that ****, newbie or vet, I'll do my damndest to make you feel unwelcome.

This sport is made up of primarily COMBATANTS. Of the non-fighters, many of them just come out to hang out and camp and party for a week. I would say the minority of people that come to Bel events are there with the intent to NOT fight and to do NON-fighting things. If those people are interested in learning and doing non-fighting things, THEY are really the ones that need to speak up and either volunteer to run a class or suggest ideas for things for non-fighters to do. As a fighter, I know that I'm not going to eat up any more of my time doing things other than fight, party, fight, and help run stuff.

In response to
Does your group need to promote wide scale public drunkeness and Sex to have fun?

**** yes. Otherwise we'd call it "Super Fun Clean Christian Living Nite". Sin night is the big party of the event where people can get crunk as hell and shoot the **** with their buddies. We sent several people away when we believed they were smoking pot. I ain't a police officer, so if I don't see it I can only ask that it not be done in public. If the event coordinators were suspicious, we confronted the offenders and asked that they leave. Short of hauling the cops down to the fire, that's the best you're going to get.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Thank Theros, we got it worked out.

I can sympathize on the pains of planning an event.

[Elwrath]

what was the official body count for the event?