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 Post subject: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:01 am 
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Im not sure whom exactly is in charge of the financials for the event, but when can we expect to see the financial breakdown for costs vs revenues? I know when I arrived at Troll on Monday afternoon, there were nearly 300 sign-ins, meaning the event had already raised at least $10,000. I'm interested to see how everything broke down.

Thanks in advance. :)


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:30 am 
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Thats not something the event coordinators usually make public

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:53 am 
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Sir Par wrote:
Thats not something the event coordinators usually make public



Is there a reason why not? Given that Belegarth is an NPO and Chaos Wars is run under the banner of Belegarth, it seems pretty reasonable to expect that full disclosure of revenues and expenses would be provided, yes?


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 1:46 pm 
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Chaos Wars is not run by Belegarth. It is run by an Idaho Club, The Highlands of Chaos. We use the Belegarth Rule Set, as made available to the public through the corporation. Any and all funds generated by Chaos Wars goes back to Chaos Wars.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:18 pm 
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Plithut wrote:
Chaos Wars is not run by Belegarth. It is run by an Idaho Club, The Highlands of Chaos. We use the Belegarth Rule Set, as made available to the public through the corporation. Any and all funds generated by Chaos Wars goes back to Chaos Wars.


Who are the members of said club and where are they incorporated?


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 4:25 pm 
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Dude ... do you have a specific question about the uses of funds or something? Because otherwise you're just looking like a * ...

The event was awesome, the event coordinators VOLUNTEER their time for over a year to pull off the event, and things such as bathrooms and locations cost money. So, like Pthug said, the money is spent on Chaos - Putting it on, so that you can have a good time.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 6:17 pm 
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Seriously.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:34 pm 
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I'm not entirely sure why there's hostility. I don't have a question to ask other than the one I did: can we get a financial breakdown of Chaos Wars?

I'm really not trying to be a jerk. I appreciate that people put in effort. I've run a lot of events that were hard work, so I'm familiar with the effort needed to run an event of scale. I have nothing but respect for people who organize these things.

That said, an event this size with this much money involved can only benefit from transparency and openness, so I guess I'm confused why people are reluctant to want to talk about it. My question is simply how was the revenue from Chaos Wars spent and who is accountable for said money?


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:46 pm 
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Asking people about their money is rude, brah.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:48 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 9:53 pm 
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Sheesh Laoric im not sure where to begin.

Are you the IRS or what?

I dont think anyone would disclose that kind of data to a random person.

Why the scrutiny?

And yes thats a irl pic of me with my crew...


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:27 pm 
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Laoric is a cross-gamer like me. HE and I both are used to looking at the financials of events we attend. Generally its to get an idea of the cost analysis for the event. Where the money was spent, so that we can learn from other events if/when we run our own.

I don't think he meant to offend, just interested in the particulars of it all.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:29 pm 
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Krazypickle wrote:
Sheesh Laoric im not sure where to begin.

Are you the IRS or what?

I dont think anyone would disclose that kind of data to a random person.

Why the scrutiny?

And yes thats a irl pic of me with my crew...


I'm not a random person. I'm a member if Belegarth who thinks that when people are entrusted with over $10,000 they have a duty to be open and honest about how they spend it so that the event can improve and grow for the betterment of all.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 10:40 pm 
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Ok you win, ill admit it, I shoot off at the mouth sometimes. :angel:

Its just the event was so awesome, I wouldnt think the finances would be in question. Considering the amount of work put in....unless the event was suffering. I dont understand why anyone would care.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:24 pm 
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http://www.accessidaho.org/public/sos/corp/D54293.html


And they aren't "entrusted" with that money. It's my understanding that a private group put on a private event, we paid to go to said event, and they use said funds to put on the event again the next year.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2012 11:25 pm 
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It also seems like the sort of thing that could have been handled through PMs or something else more discreet than asking when (not if) somewhat sensitive information would be released on a public forum.

Oh, and since I've been saying it everywhere else, thank you guys so much for running such an awesome event- even if I was viciously attacked with a beverage by one of the organizers on the last day~!

:P


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 9:24 am 
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laoric is not being a jerk about it, he just wanted to know the breakdown to better understand how chaos spent money, so people can learn and plan their events. It is a common practice with other groups, and some transparency with our events economics will only help future coordinators of chaos war to understand how the money gets spent and what to expect. in other words, lay off laoric, he is just trying to be helpful

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 12:15 pm 
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Cedric wrote:
laoric is not being a jerk about it, he just wanted to know the breakdown to better understand how chaos spent money, so people can learn and plan their events. It is a common practice with other groups, and some transparency with our events economics will only help future coordinators of chaos war to understand how the money gets spent and what to expect. in other words, lay off laoric, he is just trying to be helpful



God Damnit Derian insert a **** "I Agree" button already.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Zeldrine Cold wrote:
Cedric wrote:
laoric is not being a jerk about it, he just wanted to know the breakdown to better understand how chaos spent money, so people can learn and plan their events. It is a common practice with other groups, and some transparency with our events economics will only help future coordinators of chaos war to understand how the money gets spent and what to expect. in other words, lay off laoric, he is just trying to be helpful



God Damnit Derian insert a **** "I Agree" button already.



Seconded!

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 5:30 pm 
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Part of the reason we cant give you a response is that we are still looking at all of the bills. I am still waiting on three bills, not to mention the final cost on our Port-a-pottie vandalism. Laoric what information are you looking for specifically? I know that this year we invested money back into items such as the weapons check tent (we bought 2), Generator and Light systems. Typically, if you want to talk about items such as the financial in and outs or Chaos, you are welcome to do that at War Council. I know that Dopp, Myself and others would be glad to share our experience in running events and how to both plan for and break down the cost of the events.
All I know is that I, for one, am not 100% comfortable on disclosing the financials of Chaos on a public board.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 10:44 pm 
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i prpose this then.

as belegarth is a Non profit corporation i suggest that a general seasonal/quarterly/yearly fiscal summery be submitted on the "General" financial breakdown of all or most of the major events taken under the belgarth name. that can be given out when Requested from whoever hold the treasury position.

this ensures that only the Investors of the company (the populous of belegarth) and not the rest of the world get this information

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Thu Aug 02, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Good idea. ^


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 9:01 am 
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1. Belegarth is a Not-For-Profit, not a non-profit.

2. Chaos Wars War Council is the proper forum for these questions, not the internet.

3. We have been in a unique situation that does not require us to pay camping fee's, thus this allows us to spend more money on things like Feast.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 10:17 am 
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Also, keep in mind that Chaos War is not run by Belegarth itself, so it isn't necessarily subject to the same rules that Belegarth is as a not for profit organization.

Belegarth (as a corporation) runs one event a year, and that event is Armageddon. Financial breakdowns of this event (as well as all other financials of the organization) are posted in the Realm Leaders forum as well as the Belegarth Officers forum by the treasurer.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:43 am 
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Derian wrote:
Also, keep in mind that Chaos War is not run by Belegarth itself, so it isn't necessarily subject to the same rules that Belegarth is as a not for profit organization.

Belegarth (as a corporation) runs one event a year, and that event is Armageddon. Financial breakdowns of this event (as well as all other financials of the organization) are posted in the Realm Leaders forum as well as the Belegarth Officers forum by the treasurer.


This made me think of a tangential issue. While most realms are small and don't deal in money values that the government would take notice of, events like Chaos Wars are big enough that, should the IRS notice, could cause some serious suck for the people with their names on a piece if paper somewhere. Has there ever been any discussion of requiring larger groups to acquire some kind of protection via NPO status? My question is mostly just out of personal interest.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 2:05 pm 
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If I am not mistaken, the Highlands of Chaos is an Idaho State Club. That means we operate under and are awarded protections under Idaho Law.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 6:30 pm 
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Yeah, Belegarth by design is not in the business of telling realms what to do. Belegarth (as a corporation) has adequate protections (excluding the insurance issue) in place but do not require or guarantee those protections via our bylaws. We feel that it is more beneficial to be overly inclusive than it is to be overly protective. For every realm/event that will cause a massive, colossal **** that results in legal action, there will be 500 successful realms -- that sort of thing.

Don't get me wrong, I am 100% for transparency. Plithut, I love you, but I don't understand your concerns about not wanting to release the financials publicly. But, that said, as a member of the Belegarth BoD, it isn't my business. Chaos Wars has been incredibly successful thanks to people like Plithut, so I will trust their judgement in these matters.

Laoric, I think you bring up a very, very good point. I would love to see any/all realms posting detailed financial breakdowns for all their events for the exact same reasons you would. It's not an issue of feeling like you need to keep people honest, but rather that posting such numbers can greatly assist other groups in planning their own events.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Fri Aug 03, 2012 11:09 pm 
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Derian wrote:
But, that said, as a member of the Belegarth BoD, it isn't my business.


I have a slight concern with something you said, but didn't feel like reposting your entire comment. You mentioned that the Belegarth corp has limited access to what goes on at events by design, only really providing the insurance (if im correct) for those events. IF this is correct, wouldn't that place bel corp inline for a lawsuit or possible IRS action if the financials weren't handled IAW state and federal law?

Ofcourse im no lawyer and don't really know, just trying to apply some logic.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:06 am 
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Belegarth has no insurance and does not provide it for any event, practice, gathering or meeting.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 12:08 pm 
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The less like Amtgard, the better.

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Overall I believe the article was positive for our image, loosely defining us as a sadomasochist anti-larp. I'm ok with that. http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/LARP-harder

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 2:05 pm 
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Why?


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Why?


Amtgard is too bureaucratic.


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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 4:34 pm 
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The only amtgard I've seen is having been around Blackspire for a couple years; I might be a little jaded. Naomi? Aristirisi? Yeah.

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Overall I believe the article was positive for our image, loosely defining us as a sadomasochist anti-larp. I'm ok with that. http://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/LARP-harder

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Amtgard is fairly bureaucratic but works well on the whole. I grew up in Amtgard, in the Burning Lands, where the most of the "governing" takes place. It only became an issue a few times (during my time there) when small groups would start up and claim Amtgard without signing the necessary paperwork. Said paperwork was very simple and didn't mean you gave over your whole world to some guys a thousand miles away. It just said that you would follow the rules, be adults and act within the best interests of your members, realm and Amtgard on the whole. This simple contract has been around since very nearly the inception of the group.

I think that Belegarthians get the idea that since we are so very autonomous, all other groups that have contracts and paperwork and oversight are dictatorial monsters. This is not true. In the mundane world you have to sign forms and prove things all the time. Belegarth is the exception, not the rule. In this world of red tape we just tiptoe the line between anarchy and bureaucracy and hope no one looks too close. That's fine for now but may have to change with the times in order to protect our chosen way of life.

I say all of this in order to ask people to stop making this an issue between Amtgard/Dagorhir and Belegarth. They have their way of doing business and we have ours. That does not mean that we should just reject ideas spawned from their methods. Some of those ideas are quite sound and based in reason and logic and have worked well for many years.

Also, remember that the internet does not relay any feelings, just words. Read those words carefully and give people some leeway for a change. In Laoric's original posts he never once said that there was a problem or he was upset. I for one did not read it that way. Please take a minute to rethink how you react to posts on the board. Be overly civil if needed or say nothing at all in an attempt to clean up the bile on the boards. Moderate yourselves for a change and relax. This is supposed to be fun and most of us are normally rational adults.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sat Aug 04, 2012 10:21 pm 
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I heard dopp uses the chaos wars fund to make payments on his Bugatti Veyron

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:53 am 
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I heard dopp uses the chaos wars fund to make payments on his Bugatti Veyron

What is a Bugatti Veyron?

Transparency would be good because it would keep everything fully legit. This why If someone were to make a stink about something it would be shutdown quickly without much effort. Highlands of Chaos is a not for profit club under Idaho State Law and must file and pay taxes monthly with the State, this in itself gives the state notification of money made and would provide protection
if someone were to question anything. This of course is if nothing has been changed sense I dealt with it. I would also like to thank the unpaid very helpful
people that put in time to make It one of if not the best Event I've ever been to, and I've been to a couple. Thanks Dopp for taking on the trouble of
running the Highlands of Chaos State Club that makes it possible to have this sort of event happen. :angel:


Last edited by Sir Thane on Sun Aug 05, 2012 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sun Aug 05, 2012 9:14 am 
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this is a bugatti veyron.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bugatti_Veyron

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Wed Aug 15, 2012 9:45 pm 
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Sorcia wrote:
I think that Belegarthians get the idea that since we are so very autonomous, all other groups that have contracts and paperwork and oversight are dictatorial monsters. This is not true. In the mundane world you have to sign forms and prove things all the time. Belegarth is the exception, not the rule. In this world of red tape we just tiptoe the line between anarchy and bureaucracy and hope no one looks too close. That's fine for now but may have to change with the times in order to protect our chosen way of life.


Holy **** this is truth if Ive ever heard it. If anything, as a company, we should be looking at all of the other foam combat organizations and see what they are doing and why they have made these decisions. This way we can (hopefully) implement the correct changes necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaos XVI financial breakdown
PostPosted: Sun Aug 19, 2012 7:32 pm 
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Plithut wrote:
Holy **** this is truth if Ive ever heard it. If anything, as a company, we should be looking at all of the other foam combat organizations and see what they are doing and why they have made these decisions. This way we can (hopefully) implement the correct changes necessary.


I dig on this. Though I'm not in any way implying that we've changed, when Belegarth was founded there was generally a pretty solid level of trust between realms. As I see it, this trust wasn't the result of anything extraordinary or immaterial - it was mostly the result of regular and continued interaction between realms.

As Belegarth grows, it will become more obvious that this won't continue to work as it did before, unfortunately. As such, our rules & customs need to adapt. Using this as a specific example, I think it's totally reasonable to share event budget figures in most circumstances. I don't know the circumstances surrounding CW, so I don't feel right saying that they should be made public.

That said, (please don't try to equate this to the 'if you're innocent, you have nothing to hide' argument -- an organization is not an individual) I believe that any/all events should be sharing this information. I'm literally at a loss trying to think of a situation where this would be harmful unless the organizing body was engaged in some kind of fraud (not implying that here).

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