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Should staff wielders be allowed to grab their weapon's own striking surface?
Yes 59%  59%  [ 20 ]
No 41%  41%  [ 14 ]
Total votes : 34
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 Post subject: Striking Surfaces: Application to Staves
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:18 pm 
Hero
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A friend of mine and I were messing around in his backyard when he told me that he had been training with a stave for the past several months. One point he had made was that he had been training using the full length of the stave, and not just with marked handle areas. It allowed him to be much more accurate with his strikes, and he could use the weapon more safely because of the increased control.

This brings me to my point: For stave users, could there be an exception to the "No grabbing striking surfaces" rule? If it allowed the weapon to be not only safer, but also more playable and more realistic, then why not? This exception would only be for the fighter using the weapon. It would apply to weapon grapplers as normal.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:31 pm 
Underling
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Although it's against the rules as written, I think it makes a lot of sense. But no, you couldn't as the rules are written. You could work on getting it changed, though, I suppose.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 5:36 pm 
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i would consider this a loophole in the rules and allow it because i can't think of a playability, realism, or safety concern that cannot be overcome with the proper construction of said stave

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 6:10 pm 
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The only thing I'm curious about is the fact that the handle, if he is not holding it, could hit people.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 6:13 pm 
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You can always adopt it as a house rule for home battles and practices. I wouldn't have a problem with it personally.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 6:44 pm 
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CONGRATULATIONS. youve found the main reason staffs in foam fighting arent as good as originally believed. Its the main problem with them, but its the rules. As for changing the rules. Ha good luck its been this way fro a while for a reason, thus its not gona change.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 6:58 pm 
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*shrugs* the rules do seem to change from time to time, despite what all the naysayers say.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 7:02 pm 
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3.7.5. Gripping the striking surface of an opponents Weapon results in the disabling of that limb.

I'm not finding any other rule about grabbing striking surfaces, and this one pretty explicitly apllies only to other people's weapons, NOT your own. ANybody want to shed some light on the rule mentioned above?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 8:50 pm 
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You just nailed it Dmitri. There is absolutely nothing wrong with grabbing your own weapon anywhere, therefore it is totally ok to swing a staff anyway you want (as long as only the striking sruface hits). There were several reasons for this specific and planned ruling. One is that many people feel that weapons can be damaged by grabbing the striking surface, if you want to do it to your own ok but not to someone else's. Another reason is that too many people kept trying to grab opponents weapons while they were being swung. Probably the single best reason I have ever heard for not being able to grab an opponents weapon by the striking surface came from Dominus of Rome and had to do with grabbing swords blades. A real blade was very narrow and not exactly easy to hold onto. Foam blades are MUCH wider, easier to grip, and most importantly the fingers have soft, grippy places to dig in and give a firmer grip. Very unrealistic, pretty unplayable to determine if a hand was cut or not, and in a nasty tug it can become unsafe if done repeatedly. It is one thing to grab your own weapon wherever you want because of the fact that in reality you would be in control of it yourself. It is another thing to grab a weapon which someone else is moving around and trying to kill you with.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 9:15 pm 
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There is one small safety concern involved in this. Foam is not meant to be a handle, the repeated use of it as such would cause the foam to break down that much faster. Possibly during the course of a battle. Unlike incidental padding where this might not be a big deal the other end of a stave is still a striking surface which may be used later in the battle.

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 Post subject: RE: Whoa, time out
PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 10:32 pm 
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Ahem
As I understand the rules, and as they have been explained to me, you may not grab your own sword, flail, etc by the striking surface. Also, if your own weapon is hit into you (striking surface hits you) with enough force, it counts as a hit. Are we saying this is wrong now because there's no rule that explicitly states you cannot?

Rules are made for a reason. If you want them changed, talk about it with realm leaders or the war council. If you wawnt to make it a home rule that you can grab a stave by the striking surface, go ahead...but if I see you holding a striking surface at a national event, I'd have to call your attention to it, and I'm sure heralds would call you to lose the limb.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2003 11:17 pm 
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The point is, it's NOT against the rules. I have a staff that's been used quite a bit, often by the end, and the padding has not been nearly as badly damaged as my blue swords have just by being banged against each other in the course of combat. Nothing in the Book of War suggests that you can't grip your own weapon's striking surface, so in point of fact, the local rule would be one disallowing it. That's not to say it's totally unreasonable to disallow it, but it certainly isn't in the national rules.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 8:29 am 
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I'm with Dmitri and Freyson here. We have a guy who made a nice staff with stabbing tips on both ends. I doesn't really work against sheilds or reds, but he has fun with it. And we've all used it once or twice for fun. I let people swing it by the end. They nearly always grip it with one hand at the end and the other on the handle, so the exposed handle portion some of you are concerned about hitting some one isn't any further forward than it is on a glaive.
The brass tacks here are:It's NOT against the rules. It may have been before, b ut now it's not. If you anti people don't like it. Talk to the war council.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 8:59 pm 
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Ike, I doubt that the occasional grab of very thick foam on the end of a staff is going to do more damage than the continual hitting and blocking.

Calarn, it seems that someone explained the rule incorectly to you. You MAY garb YOUR weapon by the striking surface, you may NOT grab your OPPONENT's weapon by the striking surface. This rule was made this way specifically, I know becuase I think I was the recorder at War Council who worded it like that after what seemed like months of discussions. I explained the reasons in my previous post. We are not saying that a hit is now not a hit though... that is quite a stretch. If a striking surface, yours or theirs, hits you with enough force it is a hit. That is totally different from gripping your own blade. I do not mean to sound rude in the following, but I would suggest you take your own words to heart. Rules (such as this one)ARE made for a reason. If you want a rule locally which states that you cannot grab ANY striking surface, then by all means implement it. If you want the current rule changed, talk to the realm leader or war council. And if you should make a call like you said you would at a National event then it would be you who are violating the rules. Heralds who know the rules would most definitely NOT call the staff user injured.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:00 pm 
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Yeah, what Freyson said!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 9:15 pm 
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Freyson,
I agree that the rules allow for this. Or should I say the rules do not specifically disallow this. However I disagree that gripping the foam will do less damage than striking with it. Striking is a quick action spread out over a large area. A grip, a firm grip, on foam is a long compression with small intense compresion points. Add into that the foam will then be stressed to swing the weapon side to side. I am not saying I am right that it will break down faster just that I believe it would. I would not mind seeing it tested for safety.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2003 11:27 pm 
Underling
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So long as there is suffecient padding below the striking surface it should be ok, but remember that it's highly likely someone will get hafted (same goes for making polearms)

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 Post subject: yes
PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 11:24 am 
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double ended weapons rule. anyone who thinks they are stupid, and useless,... ... well, i don't like you then. i agree that you should be able to grab the surface cause saftey should come first. A staff is different that all other weapons out there, and it should have different rules, like all the other weapons out there have diffenet rules.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 31, 2003 2:36 pm 
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w-hoooo! ya that's cool I'm going to tell everyone about it!! I've had it ingrained in my mind so long that you can't grip you own weapon's blade that I didn't look at the rules...Ya my staff wielding friends will be mighty happy...and I agree fully with the rule!!


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