Belegarth

by **varadin** » Sun May 04, 2003 6:59 pm

Ok in the kingdom of Pentwyvern there is talk about allowing plastic and ALuminium armor. Mind giving me your thoughts on it.

by **Tren** » Sun May 04, 2003 7:32 pm

I think you should keep it period materials, I've worn a chain shirt made of only aluminum, it's like a feather, before you'd know it you'd have everyone running around in aluminum hauberks because it's cheap, light, and easy. And even if it comes last, this sport is still about realism, and real armor was not easy to wear.

by **Sonus** » Sun May 04, 2003 9:00 pm

Period, it just makes the game more real. I wouldn't mind aluminum greaves or bracers though....

by **Derian** » Sun May 04, 2003 9:06 pm

Keep it period. Otherwise, you'd get **** like brigadine made out of lightswitch covers on pleather backing.

*shudder*

by **Ivan Rockbreaker** » Mon May 05, 2003 2:12 am

I like the idea of plastic armor. In SCA they let you wear what ever as lona as it LOOKS period. Kidex is awsome and works very very well. I think something to keep in mind when addressing the realinsm issue is that all the weapons are very light compared to their real life counterparts.

by **V-Hil** » Mon May 05, 2003 8:30 am

This sports weapon are already getting lighter and lighter. If a person wants to wear armor and reap its benefits, they should have to suffer at least a small bit with the added weight, slowed movement and all the other disadvantages of wearing armor.

by **Winfang** » Mon May 05, 2003 8:31 am

So that what's your persona name is. And all along I really thought it was Mini-Teppick or Teppick Jr.

by **Gonf** » Mon May 05, 2003 8:51 am

I can see aluminum armour being worked into the game on the basis of replica mithril, but as for using it on the battlefield, I'd say nah'..

-Gonf

by **Cidion** » Mon May 05, 2003 10:04 am

Please keep it period materials. I can see how the door could be opened to other arguements later.

by **Sphinx** » Mon May 05, 2003 10:54 am

I must agree with everyone else, keep it in period. I view battleguard as a kind of reenactment society as well as a fighting sport. When reenacting something, you want to keep it as realistic as possible ne? I know some people down here have worn plastic sports equipment, but they don't count it as armor. They're wearing it for their own safety.

by **Mercer** » Mon May 05, 2003 11:13 am

Opening it up to cheap knockoffs is a slippery slope, at the end of which lies one of the prime problems with NERO (besides tap-fighting and cheesed-out magic).

Keep it period. Otherwise, you'd get **** like brigadine made out of lightswitch covers on pleather backing.

Seen it, fought against it, barely restrained my urge to set the twit on fire...

by **varadin** » Mon May 05, 2003 2:14 pm

Winfang wrote:So that what's your persona name is. And all along I really thought it was Mini-Teppick or Teppick Jr.

once again i am put back into my place....

let me expand. Of what i understand the "ugly" rule would be very much in effect. And since we only have about 3 members with armor on anymore on a regular bases. Supposable its experemental along with some other rules we are changing. Im not in charge i just wanted to see what out of Kingdomders thought about it.

by **Raban** » Mon May 05, 2003 3:29 pm

Armor must remain period metals. The reason that we have always had this rules are as follows.

First, armor is not required. To compare us to the SCA, saying that the SCA allows such types of armor is a non valid point. You can not fight in the SCA without armor. We do not require armor to fight, that is why they allow platic armor.

Second, the battle system of this game has never been fantacy based. It is based on real combat. I will not comment on the light weapons let me just say that Mitril Chain never was real armor. It is fake, it is imaginary, and should never be allowed.

The fantasy part of this sport is in persona creation. It is not in the battle rules. This is a sport. Even in "professional" sports they have limits on what is allowed for some things are just "cheesy" to allow into a sport. I personally want to fight skill to skill on the field and not have to worry about those "cheesy" items that people use because they cannot handle reality.

by **fading** » Mon May 05, 2003 3:58 pm

hehe mithril is period?

by **bahamunt** » Mon May 05, 2003 4:03 pm

but then again mithril isnt real...

by **Mekoot Rowan** » Mon May 05, 2003 4:40 pm

Well said Raban.

by **Gonf** » Mon May 05, 2003 4:51 pm

I was referring to using mithril like armour for some scenario that would be used to recreate one of Tolkien's many battles, but using it in an actual fight is just cheap..

-Gonf

by **Ora** » Mon May 05, 2003 5:03 pm

Aluminum is pretty, but isn't it a bit too soft and pliable to make battlefield sustainable armor? Plastic underneath armor I can see, but making armor out of plastic is just cheesy.
I'd say keep it all as close to period as possible.
If any of you have ever read, or even seen the movie Lord of the Rings you'd know that mithril is Moria-silver and silver is a very period material... get with the program.

It would be interesting to see an all silver suit of maile... expensive as hell!

by **Poeir** » Mon May 05, 2003 5:06 pm

Well, instead of aluminum, you could use carbon fiber... It's extremely light and stronger than steel. Of course, it will cost a fortune. So it's a lot like mithril.

by **varadin** » Mon May 05, 2003 5:13 pm

OHHH A carbon fiber breast plate they should allow that on coolness factor.

by **Ora** » Mon May 05, 2003 7:18 pm

Guys... carbon fiber is a synthetic material... silver is very much a natural material. How can there be a comparison between the two?

by **varadin** » Mon May 05, 2003 7:21 pm

true but carbonfiber is still jsut * cool

by **Ora** » Mon May 05, 2003 7:30 pm

Well, hell... if we're going on coolness factor, let's just throw in titanium!
Let's face it... almost everyone in this sport is all for having armor being somewhat cumbersome and a hinderance to the wearer for it to count as armor. Although there are some people who have armor that is not quite as hindering as it looks, it is still made within the rules system of our sport and so it is allowed. There is a give and take to armor.... the give, you get one extra hit before you lose a limb or take death... the take is you're hindered a bit more than an unarmored person.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Pentwyvern has chosen to abstain from being Belegarth or Dagorhir, so whatever they choose to do they're doing within their own rules system.
IMHO using aluminum and/or plastic as armor is still just cheesy.

by **varadin** » Mon May 05, 2003 7:38 pm

DUDE that would just be plain sweet

by **Sir Killian** » Tue May 06, 2003 2:23 am

im going to repeat a few things others have said so bare with me

1. SCA does require armor... not all kingdoms allow pickle barrel armor... and the ones that do are laughed at...

2. we are not a tap fighting 100% fantasy based game...were only 50% fantasy based...

3. everyone would have armor...

4. SCA doesnt allow light metals such as aluminum or silver or easily maleable metals...

5. did i mention everyone would have armor....

6. armor is something to work on and take pride in wearing... if you allow non period things this destroys that special perk...

7. WAHHHH armor is expensive i cant afford it... STFU and get a job you lazy, cheap *... it cost 25 dollars for a spool of chain and 100 dollars approx. for a hide of leather..... so start saving your money and buy the materials....

in short allowing non period materials is dumb......
this is foam fighting .... we pad the weapons not the fighter.... if you want that extra hit it will cost ya.....

and if i saw armor like i see at an amtgard field on our field id be forced to quit the sport and go play golf.... or something

killian

by **Owen** » Tue May 06, 2003 6:12 am

Yes well I agree that only "period metals" should be used, I know I have a problem with Stainless steel, because of that rule and yet it has been known to be used in the Aratari. Whne ever I use to bring t up basicly I was yelled down because of it, even if at the time it was not legal something about it looking good on the feild bugger that I say!

IMO only period metals should be used.

by **Elebrim** » Tue May 06, 2003 12:21 pm

I can understand if it is only a part of the overall armor, but having everything in your armor made entirely out of non-period materials is really dumb. It does defeat the purpose of the whole set up. However, no one has mentioned pleather yet. . . :roll:

by **Eoric of the Riddermark** » Tue May 06, 2003 3:20 pm

Please don't turn Belegarth into a LARP-like cheesefest populated by plastic-clad paladins and aluminum-clad amazons.

That's all I have to say about that...

by **Cidion** » Tue May 06, 2003 3:47 pm

Please don't turn Belegarth into a LARP-like cheesefest populated by plastic-clad paladins and aluminum-clad amazons.

That's all I have to say about that...

PLEASE!!!!!!!!!
hehe

by **The Lost Celt** » Tue May 06, 2003 9:26 pm

For those of you who were speculating about aluminum being used in the SCA do a websearch for "Metallurgy for Stickjocks" - Aircraft aluminum is used a lot along with "street sign aluminum" - Hell, I know a guy who squired under a jousting troupe for 5 years and every suit of armor he helped build was made of the stuff.

Of course you have people that hate plastic and aluminum and even stainless in the SCA but a quick question would be if everyone is assumed to be armored is there a difference in the amount of strikes a person may recieve before he or she takes a "killing blow?" Protection is obviously more of an issue and if there isn't any advantage conferred than I suppose it would be more acceptable? I think this is probably the biggest difference in attitude between armor types in foamfighting and SCA - That and the risk of heat exhaustion is a bit higher in a full kit

Personally I wouldn't mind plastic being used more often - under 3/16 leather. I've once heard someone say "Foamfighting is more dangerous than SCA" and I tend to agree with them because of the lack of armor. People assume that because a big stick is padded it's not going to hurt them, but cores fail and sometimes even break. Some players take more risks because of the assumption "Big padded stick isn't going to hurt me"... We all know the crazy ones

I've been putting it off but I really want to go for a gorget and some mitten gauntlets after some fo the stuff I've read on this board plus my own * getting hit in interesting places.

I'd like to consider alternate materials but with the extra advantage, the fact that armor isn't required to play, and the simple truth that we can't all afford it or even desire it probably make the whole issue a pandoras box that shouldn't be opened.

That and I really don't want to see a guy with pop-tab lammalar armor, I just ran across a pattern for that last week... Amtgard, big surprise.

by **Sir Gheldar** » Thu May 08, 2003 8:47 pm

We are still trying to recreate a semi authentic/fantasy form of ground combat. If you wish to use armor you must bare the weight! I'm all for keeping period materials only.

by **Visgoth the Barbarian** » Fri May 09, 2003 4:42 pm

period metals. In real combat a plastic or alumnum would cut like the casing on a sausage under any blade other than like a dagger. and anyway you would look like an * in anything other that period

by **Forkbeard** » Fri May 09, 2003 7:09 pm

I feel that our armour aceptance standards should be based on how armor looks and works, rather than materials. There are a lot of people in "leagal armor" that look like ****. They only get passed because the rules are so vauge. Many, many people in the sca and other serious combat sports use plastic armour that not only protects them more than enough, it looks almost perfect. That pickle barrel crap that everyone is afriad of shouldn't be leagal anywhere.
My 2 bits,
FB

by **Beorn Tordensjold** » Sat May 10, 2003 8:57 am

Someone I know made a piece of 8 in 1 maille out of 14 ga. standard aluminium wire, and showed it to me back in the day whren Ered Duath was still Battleguard, for the question of alternate materials for armor. I promptly pulled out my pocketknife and cut the piece in half. I think that that ended that discussion pretty quick.

I personally wouldn't have a problem with some alternate materials (particularly stainless or titanium), but I think that they would have to be able to function at least as well. Pickle barrel (Smurf) armor is plain ugly, but it works for what it was intended for, heavy SCA combat, which can be extremely injurious. Our form of fighting doesn't tend to be injurious (not like SCA injuries) and so ugly armor or not, plastic isn't NECESSARY for this. For that matter, no armor is really necessary.
We don't need to use plastic. Aluminium just isn't strong enough for use, in my opinion. It has to be so thick, that it isn't practical. Sure, you can get road signs and do armor out of that, but if you thought that pickle barrel armor was ugly...

by **Andrek** » Sun May 11, 2003 3:33 am

Beorn

I thought that the stop breast plate was a good idea. It kept safe warriors at bay

. I agree that only period materials should be used. You are forced to do up keep on it and I don't like the light side of medieval reinactment at all. Very bad for manlyness. We don't require armor because our weapons are so safe. Have you ever been hit by a bamboo stick? You need to protect everything! I say we stick with the rules!

by **Sir Killian** » Sun May 11, 2003 9:58 pm

you cant hate on ugly armor....

then how will horde be allowed to wear armor???

by **Thorondor** » Sun May 11, 2003 10:23 pm

I think that stainless steel shouldn't be a problem. It has the weight of steel, but it's nice and shiny, so it looks good on the field. It just looks like new galvy, but it never darkens.

:monkey:

~?~

by **Sir Killian** » Sun May 11, 2003 10:36 pm

but it isnt period.... durr.. its all bout the tetanus.... DURRRRR

by **Thorondor** » Sun May 11, 2003 10:54 pm

Killian,

If you want to get technical, galvy isn't period either. If it has the weight, I don't have a problem with it.

~?~

by **Sir Killian** » Mon May 12, 2003 12:01 am

fine then dont use galvanized steel....

i use veg tanned leather..... cant get much more period then leather....

by **Andrek** » Mon May 12, 2003 1:11 am

Killian wrote:fine then dont use galvanized steel....

I see your point. What other wire can I buy, and where to make chain?

by **Eoric of the Riddermark** » Mon May 12, 2003 11:54 am

Wait a sec. Isn't galvanized steel just steel with tin in it (or coating it) for rust-resistance? If so, I will have to check, but I'm fairly sure I've read about medieval armourers tinning steel for that same purpose...

by **Seiichiro** » Mon May 12, 2003 12:15 pm

I think galvanized steel is coated with zinc to protect it. That's why you don't burn it. The zinc gets into the air and into the lungs and that's just bad news. Beyond that, it's still basically iron and carbon.

by **Beorn Tordensjold** » Mon May 12, 2003 1:37 pm

Zinc plated steel is not a new concept at all. It's been done for a LOOOONG time. Feel free to use galvanized wire for chainmaille. Tin can also be used for the same purpose. Besides, you wear it for a while and you lose all of your zinc electroplating anyway, so who cares?

by **Andrek** » Tue May 13, 2003 2:23 am

Well if Beorn says its okay then it must be. I retract my previous statement.

by **Elerosse** » Tue Jun 10, 2003 11:34 pm

if you want light armor go with leather, i ordered some from by-the-sword and its expensive but hey at least it works

by **Emerson Bridges** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 3:55 pm

I think SOME modern materials should be allowed.

For start our weapons aren't period. We know they aren't near the weight of real weapons. Most of the time everything used to make our weapons isn't period.

But for some reason there is an attitude that our armor should be pretty good replicas of real medieval armor. I ask myself "why?". I think the answer is because everyone wants armor to be a disadvantage and an advantage and we want to be taken seriously by other people. With modern materials everyone is worried about people wearing armor that doesn't have the innate disadvantage that period materials have and we won't be taken seriously.

I think we should keep minimium thickness requirements. But I think we should ADD to our requirements but allow some modern materials. We can add weight requirements(based on a formula because of different sizes). We can add materials easily cut with a knife aren't allowed. Also armor should APPEAR to be period.

by **Eoric of the Riddermark** » Wed Jun 11, 2003 4:24 pm

My question is: why do we need to incorporate non-period elements in our armour? We make our weapons the way we do so we don't kill each other, and since we allow shield-bashing we require padding on shields. But what reason(s) do we have to worry ourselves with non-period armours?

by **Andrek** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 2:00 am

Lets face it, you just wouldn't feel as cool walking into Wal-Mart in plastic armor... but Leather and Steel just give braging rights.

by **Beorn Tordensjold** » Thu Jun 12, 2003 7:47 am

What Eoric said. We just don't NEED armor in this. Groups like the SCA require armor, so the rules got loosened up to allow non period materials to make it less expensive for the average fighter. You can get plastic barrels from a car wash, sometimes for free. If we ever required armor, I would be the first one to lobby for non period materials, since it can get really expensive, really fast.

Andrek, Chain wire can be had at IFA in Provo, for about $3.00 for a 1/2 mile spool. It is electric fence wire, ask for that. And walking into Wally world wearing your outfit... Oh yeah. Fun stuff. But it looks dumb if it has ARMOR ALL stamped into your chest...

By-The-Sword does have leather armor... But so do many places, if you just want to buy it versus make it. For that matter, we have leather armor!

Belegarth

Armor?

Plastic or not

Armor?

Ick...

Real?

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