Muskets (however u spell it), will it work?

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why not, here's a poll, should it pass?

no, stupid newb
46
82%
why not, i think it will pass
0
No votes
neat idea but you're still a stupid newb
7
13%
I just want to put in a vote but have no opinion
3
5%
 
Total votes : 56

Muskets (however u spell it), will it work?

Postby beekmaster » Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:13 pm

Ok, I was chatting with my cousin via AIM, and the subject of muskets came up, I was thinking it could be spring powered and shoot an arrow.

However, you'd need a very powerful spring and it would be hard to load.

So I was wondering if I could make one that works by a hand pump ans shoots a sircular nerf foam ball.

It would work like a super-soaker, I might even use a super soaker as the baske for it.

Would it pass?
Would you be allowed to make it rapid fire? (old muskets took a while to load)
Would it be allowed to be deflected? (uness you're in "the matrix" you can't stop bullets with a sword, but the rule says only arrows can't be blocked)

endnote- I know muskets weren't really in medeival times, but they had hand cannons, and ... i forget what they're called... starts with an A...

if you really wan't to get picky I can just say it's a pump action croossbow (those existed, the even had it in LOTR, the uraks had them)
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Postby Derian » Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:31 pm

Hmm.. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say no. For all of them.

I believe fading posted a thread about this a while back somewhere in here. Dig that up, and you should find all the answers you need.
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Postby Kurgan » Sun Jan 04, 2004 6:59 pm

I'm going to have to say neat idea but no. Muskets, as far as I know, were invented later on and are not medieval. Also if you want a rapid firing crossbow then that's what you'd have to find, a 15lb or less rapid fire crossbow. Good luck with that, I can't even find any normal 15lb crossbows.
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Postby beekmaster » Sun Jan 04, 2004 7:12 pm

I searched every post by fading (7 pages) and found nothing
I searched under guns and found nothing

Fading has made a lot of posts, maybe they cut off the last hundered of them, or maybe i just missed it

Actually there was a mention of nerf balls as rocks, nice idea, but back on topic

but they did have hand cannons
its in medeival total war, a neat game

but i may have to go with the pump action crossbow
could i still use the nerf, foam ball idea?
Last edited by beekmaster on Sun Jan 04, 2004 7:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Aria » Sun Jan 04, 2004 7:16 pm

Belegarth is a medieval combat society. Which generally translates to pre-gunpowder. So, no guns.
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Postby Derian » Sun Jan 04, 2004 11:09 pm

And the fact that it would be extraordinarily difficult, if not impossible to make one that would be safe and effective.

However, if you refuse to let this die, you can always make a prototype and test it in your realm. Come up with a working set of rules that don't butcher the game's balance, then bring it to the war council, because currently, there is no way to get a gun of any type passed under national rules.
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Postby Theros the Large » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:31 am

Muskets are a no go...

Period.

If I wanted to pretend to fire a gun, I would just go fire a gun. I could have joined the military if I wanted to shoot at people.

We are a MEDIEVAL group. This idea for firearms has come up in the past and have been turned down. Nobody wants them, we don't need them and figuring out a way to do it safely is frankly too much trouble.

If you want to use something like that in your backyard, be down with your bad self. Waht you do on your own time is your business.

A simulated firearm of any kind will never be passed at an event.
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Postby Xooyan » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:09 pm

if you really wan't to get picky I can just say it's a pump action croossbow (those existed, the even had it in LOTR, the uraks had them)


Actually, I do not believe pump action crossbows are period weapons. I have seen crossbows that were capable of multiple fire (such as those with two mounted mechanisms; however if you watch the behind the scenes of The Two Towers you'll find that Weta Workshop made up the idea of a pump action crossbow to get around the fact that a period crossbow required a windlass to reset the weapon, which in their minds slowed down the action of the battle scenes too much. As far as I know, such a weapon never existed in the medieval era.

That much said, I also believe in the complete uselessness of a crossbow as it translates into foam fighting. Therefore, I say make the weapon if you like. I'll come out and shoot you with a recurve. I gaurantee I can reload and fire with a conventional recurve faster than you can with a crossbow. And of course, I have a much greater chance of hitting my target given the limitations of the crossbow's 15 pound maximum draw. ;)

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Postby Shratisfaction » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:19 pm

When I grow up I wanna be a !5 lb crossbow.
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Postby Elerosse » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:39 pm

Shrat wrote:When I grow up I wanna be a !5 lb crossbow.


shrat, you want to be too many things when you grow up.

on topic, isn't it mroe fun to hit people anyways???
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Postby beekmaster » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:46 pm

precisly, this wasn't a serious query, not only would a pressure or spring powered weapon be too weak to feel if it hit you

But the reload time and weight would make you a very easy target

you don't have to explode

jeez
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Postby Ulf Iversen » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:59 am

You know, Realms can technically do whatever they want in-realm, so If your realm council is fine with it, go for it, just don't bring it to events.

Also, you can get a bunch of people together and do your own thing on the side, maybe that would be best.
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Postby beekmaster » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:48 pm

u know what might be fun,
as a side attraction at one of the big tourneys
you could have a "hand cannon" contest
for no real prize
maybe you could score on furthest fireing, most accurate, quickest reloading ect ect
just an idea, I think it would be fun

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Postby Mawr » Thu Jan 08, 2004 4:58 pm

translate
beekmaster wrote:u know what might be fun,


"Do you know what might be fun?"

as a side attraction at one of the big tourneys
you could have a "hand cannon" contest
for no real prize


"You could have a 'hand cannon' contest as a side attraction at one of the big tourneys, but there would be no real prize."

maybe you could score on furthest fireing, most accurate, quickest reloading ect ect
just an idea, I think it would be fun


"Maybe scoring could be based on distance, accuracy, number of shots made, etcetera. It's just an idea; I think it would be fun."

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/translate
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Postby Marcadus » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:05 pm

Ok Xooyan you can shoot faster than most people with a recurve bow as well. You're way faster than me anyway. Maybe I should have practiced more....eh who cares. They did use they did use crossbow catapult things ( I can't remember what they are called ) but those were used in castle sieges. I'm trying to make a multi-arrow fireing weapon but I doubt it will pass even if it does it's limited to 15lb draw and that won't do much. I most likly won't be able to use it at an event either.


ok question for anyone who knows is there the ablity to use a rock thrower and if so what would be the limits on the thing. I want to know if I can use my water balloon launcher to fire 5' rocks :devil: would those be considered red rocks?
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Postby Eoric of the Riddermark » Thu Jan 08, 2004 5:06 pm

True muskets are not period, but "hand gonnes" are definitely medieval (in widespread use by the late 1300s). Do some research, and if you're still interested just build one and try it out in your local realm. In essence, you'll be doing all of this for a missile weapon that can be used once per battle and doesn't really convey the benefits the real weapon did (the ability to punch through plate armours). Still, if it sounds like fun to you, I'd say go for it...

Marcadus, I believe the siege weapon you're thinking of is a ballista.
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Postby Barahir Ingem » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:03 pm

I thought the realism requirement specified the time period as "pre-gunpowder." Maybe it's not written, but I've heard it described that way many times.

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Postby Eoric of the Riddermark » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:28 pm

It might specify that, but if we take a strict interpretation of that then you'd need to ban a lot of stuff currently seen in Belegarth: kilts, quite a bit of samurai gear, true two-handed greatswords, doublets, etc. ;)

Besides, all I'm saying is that if his local realm will let him try it, nobody here should tell him he can't.
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Postby beekmaster » Thu Jan 08, 2004 6:30 pm

yes, I know, that's why they won't be used in tourneys

one-use? my idea is to use nerf foam 1" diameter balls that could be loaded in one after another.

Akbar- dont hait badd speelurs, their stil pupul u no

Bara- they should have a rule that says so, i agree that it would skrew up the game. but there's no rule forbidding it that I saw, as long as i don't have too much pressure on it and can "half draw", which i can do by pumping less air into it

It just occurs to me that just like early "hande cannones" an air powered thing would also be very innacurate and only usable in close quarters.

Marc- if you wand to see a cool rock trowing ballista, check out www.trebuchets.com i think that's how u spell it.
Wait, you're using a water balloon thrower, I wanted to do that
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Postby Mawr » Thu Jan 08, 2004 7:12 pm

No, they aren't.
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Postby beekmaster » Thu Jan 08, 2004 9:15 pm

that's mature :roll:
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Postby Barahir Ingem » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:00 am

beekmaster wrote:one-use? my idea is to use nerf foam 1" diameter balls that could be loaded in one after another.


I can see a playability problem here. If your throwing a small foam ball with limited force, it's unlikely that a target, especially an armored target, will feel it. Arrows are well padded, but they have enough mass that a person will usually feel the impact.

Oh. and muskets weren't repeaters, so realism nixes that idea. It should take at least as long to reload a musket as to reload a crossbow.

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Postby Thorondor » Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:01 am

During early American history (few hundred years ago) a person needed to be able to fire 3 (THREE) aimed shots in a minute to be considered a good shooter. It takes just under 20 seconds to load and unload a musket...

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Postby Zeldrine Cold » Fri Jan 09, 2004 10:32 am

I would have to agree with Barahir. In the heat of battle a lot of times when someone shoots me with an arrow, while I'm on one leg and trying to defend myself from more than one person, I don't feel it. And I don't even have armour yet. So then if you're talking about something that is limited to 15lbs draw weight, and how would you be able to measure the thing in the first place, then you would have to get someone probably right between the eyes for them to feel it.
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Postby Eoric of the Riddermark » Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:36 pm

Thorondor wrote:During early American history (few hundred years ago) a person needed to be able to fire 3 (THREE) aimed shots in a minute to be considered a good shooter. It takes just under 20 seconds to load and unload a musket...


Colonial-era musketmen had a lot of advantages and technical innovations that wielders of the medieval hand-gonnes did not.
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Postby Thorondor » Fri Jan 09, 2004 12:43 pm

?oric , you put what I meant better. Reloading a medieval musket probably would be slower than Colonial-era muskets.

All in all, get a bow, they are nicer :)

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Postby Valder » Fri Jan 09, 2004 1:06 pm

Get a bow?? After I just spent all day designing a blue-foam hand-gonne?? I don't think so! This thing rawks... dare I say roxxors! A big tube of closed cell foam (two layers, for your safety) that hurls open-cell foam-wrapped Titleists by means of a spring-loaded platform, which is tied to a fiberglass trigger that also sets off an .mp3 gunshot in front- and rear-mounted Bose speakers!

I calculate the maximum effective range is something like 12 feet.
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Postby Beorn Tordensjold » Fri Jan 09, 2004 2:28 pm

Ok... it's official...

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Postby Valder » Fri Jan 09, 2004 3:59 pm

Nay, O craftsman; I'm sarcastic. I think muskets, hand-gonnes, cannons, catapults, ballistae, trebuchets, horses, motorcycles and flubber shoes are all ridiculous additions to foam-fighting. My apparently enthusiastic endorsements of foolishness like that is generally meant to mock to person who proposed it. As I prefer to use winking smilies and <g> marks sparingly, I will amend my previous post to make the sarcastic element more clear:

"I calculate the maximum effective range is something like 12 inches."
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Postby Beorn Tordensjold » Fri Jan 09, 2004 4:36 pm

Fair nuff...

But it's still pathetic. :)
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Postby beekmaster » Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:36 pm

don't hate

yeah, maybe ball bearings could be put inside the foam, i like the idea of golfballs (yeah it was a joke, I know) but they would be very heavy.

it would take just about that long to reload
u load the bulet in
u pump it up this would take a while and sinda simulates punding the charge down the barrel
u fire
u load another bullet
ect....


What are flubber shoes, u mean those spring bottomed things. Sounds fun to me. But I'm easily amused.

Where can u get parts to make a bow? I'm pretty handy with an actual bow (I even won a contest, I'm so proud).
I know what u are going to reply; shut up.

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Postby Shredder » Fri Jan 09, 2004 5:57 pm

Maybe I don't know what I am talking about, but didn't the company Nerf make guns that shot foam balls? Why would you have to make anything?
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Postby dOnUt » Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:26 pm

id be worried about the momentum of the ball bearing tearing through the foam relatively quickly. those things are very heavy and i doubt you could ever pad it enough to acheive the effect want. by the time its padded enough its still going to fly like ****. golf balls *might* work considering they are lighter and have a larger surface area, but i still think that would hurt like a *, especially hitting in the head/face area or crotch region.

what about a "core" of denser foam surrounding by a few layers of the lighter foam? it wont be very aerodynamic, but nothing in this sport is.
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Postby Marcadus » Fri Jan 09, 2004 6:58 pm

beekmaster wrote:Marc- if you wand to see a cool rock trowing ballista, check out www.trebuchets.com i think that's how u spell it.
Wait, you're using a water balloon thrower, I wanted to do that



ya but I have to dumb it bown a lot it has a tendency to vaporize water balloons. :devil:
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Postby Mawr » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:04 pm

Christ people. If you want to play with guns take up paintball. And don't wear that * body armor either.
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Postby beekmaster » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:22 pm

well, I do paintball every once in a while. * armor? why do u care? are u some kind of "your a disgrace to democracy if you don't like welts" person

u need some freaking prozak man!
did you get beaten up by your gilfreind/boyfreind before making that last post?

dear lourd!

anywho, alleria- ball-bearings come in all sizes, i can find one that is heavy enouch to grant a hit, but not to kill you

why not use a nerf gun? because that would be that wimpy way to do it!
but I've never been one against efficiency.
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Postby Enoch » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:27 pm

Ok, I'm gonna take this really really slow for you. You gave us the choice "no, stupid newb" in your poll, and a vast majority of the people picked it, it's probably a hint, TAKE IT!
don't hate

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If you can't find some of the previous posts in this vein, it's probably because the author got flamed to the point they moved it to the mod forum.
that's mature :roll:

you want mature? grow up.

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Postby Mawr » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:31 pm

Kid, you need to go back to your special education class and study the dictionary.
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Postby dOnUt » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:39 pm

and how much do you know about ball bearings exactly? most, if not all, bearings are relatively HEAVY by nature, so its not the issue of size, but of weight and how that weight could seriously injure someone. golf balls are at least lighter and are intended to be airborn. no matter how much you pad a ball bearing, just the sheer weight and density will not only hurt someone, but rip through any foam padding very quickly, especially if there is enough friction between your "shot" and whatever mechanism you are using to fire it. do the basic physics behind it.

all, if anyone should chill the **** out, its you. i paintball too and i dont wear armor. whats your **** point? personally, i think the plastic armor takes away from the game/sport. fine if you have injuries, but i'd much rather feel my shots, even days after, if it means ill get better and faster at dodging them. considering the rapid rate at which you attacked akbar, id say if anyone got beat up by said girl/boyfriend, it was you and your sensitivity issues....learn to ****' spell, grow up, take your own advice and take some **** prozak.
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Postby Thorondor » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:48 pm

paintball...I'd wear knee pads for the simple fact they are dying. Fighting here, I try to always wear knee pads and my leather greaves for the same reason. If you shot a ball bearing at me, I would be VERY upset. They are dense, aka HEAVY for their size. BAD idea. Good idea--use a bow.

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Realm: Grim Sword
Unit: Uruk-Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Short Recurve Bow

Postby beekmaster » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:50 pm

whuts a dikshionary?

as far as i know, I never insulted akbar, i just jokingly mentioned that "badd speelurs were people too"
he said they weren't, which isn't really a joke and isn't really an insult, it's just stupid, like a 3rd grade response.

last time i checked, 3rd grade isn't mature. Anyone who takes that deeply to heart as an insult and feels they have to start a flame, definatly needs prozac (sp)

note to fact checkers: I am not a doctor and cannot legally prescribe prozac. All of the opinions expressed in this post are not necesaraly the opinions of beekmaster. all related information in this article is trademark of beekmaster and beekmaster incorporated
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Postby Thorondor » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:53 pm

If you are going to post on ANY web board you should be able to spell at least at a 9th grade level.
This isn't IM where "u" "g2g" "ttyl" "LOL" STFU" etc should be used or typed except in criticism. You have time to actually type out: you, got to go, talk to you later, laugh out loud, and shut the **** up. Take the time, people will respect you more and you won't be thought of as an idiot when you meet people for the first time.
Oh, and typing those all out took about 3 or 4 seconds more than the letters did...so time isn't an issue.

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Daemarth: <On the topic of some people just can't get along> it's like sticking me and Kegg in a room... and I keep punching him in the f'n face, and someone looking into the room just keeps telling him that he just needs to get along with me...
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Postby beekmaster » Fri Jan 09, 2004 8:58 pm

mabey i should "yakity yac, take a prozac/prozak" its a song by capital steps

are bearings solid or hollow, if either, can't you find one that weighs the same as a golf ball? just wondering. no insult.

the idea would be to insert a tiny bearig into the center of the nerf ball

yes umm.. so anyone feel like posting a link to a good bow-construction site?
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Postby dOnUt » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:03 pm

actually they aren't really people, at least to many people on this board. if his response was "3rd grade level" it was because he made the mistake to stooping to your 3rd grade level statement. if you actually look at a lot of the board, those who use leet speak and talk like they are on an IM chat, dont get the same respect or considered mature because it is childish and on the 3rd level to use such language on a message board, especially one where people need to exchange important imformation about an organization.

and i doubt akbar took it to heart. he, along with many other people on this board, hate leet speak and love to critize the people who speak it. am i wrong akbar? last time i checked you didn't give two **** about anything.
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Postby beekmaster » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:08 pm

eye dew spel att a nineth graad levell. Figure it out.
there are rule on speeling on web boards?
but i haven't used gtg or anything, just i forget to check if I'm missing letters.

grow up!? I think i will thank you

mod forum? never though of that, makes sence, being the direction this forum is taking. history will repeat itself infinitely through history.
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Postby Mawr » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:08 pm

I really can't be bothered to hate anybody on the board. That doesn't mean I won't point out their many shortcomings and heckle them, though. I had a mentally retarded friend in highschool that could do better than that.
"I guess what I'm trying to say is, the creationist booklet was to religious literature what tubgirl is to pictures of people having sex." -- Aria
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Postby beekmaster » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:13 pm

Maybe I'm not a person. An interesting idea! Maybe I'm just an thought...or a computer program (ever tried oliverbot on bored.com?). Maybe the whole world is a computer program. Ruled by super-intelligent robots that are harvesting our body heat for energy!

Nah
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Postby Thorondor » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:18 pm

Ok, now I want 30 seconds of my life back.

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Uruk-Hai Serpent Breed and proud
Victory though intensity, tactics and glorious death!

Daemarth: <On the topic of some people just can't get along> it's like sticking me and Kegg in a room... and I keep punching him in the f'n face, and someone looking into the room just keeps telling him that he just needs to get along with me...
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Postby beekmaster » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:18 pm

ever read "Flowers for algernon"? (do you put it in quotes or underline it?). It's just a good book/short story abut a retarded guy who becomes a supergenious.

still waiting for a good link to bow construction, if anyone has one. Don't feel rushed.
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Postby beekmaster » Fri Jan 09, 2004 9:20 pm

there's a customer service line at best-buy that will give you back you time if you return it within 30 days with a receipt.
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