Incorrect Rules Answers

[Jikanta]

It has been brought to my attention that oftentimes a new person may ask a rules question and recieve several conflicting answers. I have a possible solution to this problem and I'd like to know what you guys think.

As the Rules forum is now, anyone can start a topic and anyone can post replies. I COULD set the forum so that anyone can ask a question, but only certain approved people with special permissions could answer those questions -- I.E. people who were totally familiar with the rules and would give correct answers rather than conflicting or confusing ones. Perhaps these people could be required to pass a heralds/marshals test in order to have this special privlidge.

So, please vote now, and if you have any ideas/questions/comments/whatever, feel free to post below.

[BigBadger]

Can the poster reply within the thread they created?

[Winfang]

I'm all for changing it. That'll cut down on alot of non-sense bs and thread hi-jacking that goes on.

[Jikanta]

No, I don't think the poster can reply within their own thread, but they can always just start a new thread with their follow-up question.

[Cyric]

what an awesome idea! that would bring this forum one step closer to being readable. i am all for it.

[Xooyan]

Well, I see a good deal of potential in that as long as we have enough people with a good working knowledge of the rules that want to do it. Otherwise people will be left without an answer for a period of time on some occassions.

Xooyan

[Pickles]

I think thats a great idea.

I also think that enough people that can pass Jikantas test check the boards often enough that the wait for an answer woulden't be that bad.

[Mori]

I think it'll be fine either way. One advantage of the current setup is that you don't have 15 billion threads when people need to ask questions, and when it's a fuzzy issue that doesn't really have a solid answer multiple interpretations are possible. Such rules interpretations, though, could be done just as well in a different forum, I suppose.

[Jikanta]

I could also create a private/invisible forum for rules discussions, arguements, changes, ideas, etc., so experienced people who are interested in rules development can have a place to talk.

[Aragorn]

I think its a great idea.

The rules forum isn't the place for opinions. New people should be able to get direct, unambiguous answers to their questions.

[Ruun]

Suggestion on the responding to their answered posts.

Just PM them. Maybe the people won't want to be PMed of course, and they can just say so in their answering post.

Good idea. It will really cut down on all the crap that happens there.

[Cyric]

Suggestion on the responding to their answered posts.

Just PM them. Maybe the people won't want to be PMed of course, and they can just say so in their answering post.

Good idea. It will really cut down on all the crap that happens there.

Not really. Other people who read that forum may be curious about the same thing, and would also like an answer. plus, with the threads all neat and orderly, it will be easy for new people to search and find their own answers. if the answers are PM'd, we will still have reoccuring questions.

[Kyrax]

A couple of thoughts:

1) I like the idea of moderated threads, but does the moderating have to be strictly enforced by the software or could it be managed with a separate rules set for this forum? That might mean more work for people tasked with that job in this forum, but be more flexible to allow follow up questions or clarifications.

2) If you do use the software to control responses, can you post a different header listing special suggestions for just this forum? For example, explaining the purpose of the forum, its different rules and telling people that they can follow up by PM'ing the forum moderators or the person who replied to them and ask them to post a follow up question.

3) I would encourage the forum's moderators to edit thread headers to clarify what the questions are and the topic or topics that thread covers.

4) In the restricted access system, can a person edit their own post if they are not one of the moderators? If they can't post a follow up, they probably shouldn't be allowed to edit their initial post.

[Diomedes]

My only questions are who would be the selected few who could anwser posts? Would there be some kind of test?

(Edited after I realized that I had posted two questions...)

[varadin]

im for it if there is some type of test anyone can take, not just moderators and known leaders, there are a bunch of other guys out there who know the rules and can help with all the questions

[The Black Jester]

I agree in the change and would like to also take your test so's I could be one to answer question's in that forum.

[Mawr]

Kyrax, Freyson, GVK, Diego and all the mods quickly come to mind as those qualified to field answers. Shouldn't be too hard to find others.

[Jikanta]

A couple of thoughts:

1) I like the idea of moderated threads, but does the moderating have to be strictly enforced by the software or could it be managed with a separate rules set for this forum? That might mean more work for people tasked with that job in this forum, but be more flexible to allow follow up questions or clarifications.

2) If you do use the software to control responses, can you post a different header listing special suggestions for just this forum? For example, explaining the purpose of the forum, its different rules and telling people that they can follow up by PM'ing the forum moderators or the person who replied to them and ask them to post a follow up question.

3) I would encourage the forum's moderators to edit thread headers to clarify what the questions are and the topic or topics that thread covers.

4) In the restricted access system, can a person edit their own post if they are not one of the moderators? If they can't post a follow up, they probably shouldn't be allowed to edit their initial post.

1. I think it would be easier to let the software do the work for the rules forum rather than tasking people to do it. Software never gets bored or annoyed from this sort of thing.

2. No, unfortunately I can't change the header for the forum -- the "board rules" one we have now is universal. I can, however, make an announcement post that always stays on top and title it "read this before posting" and list the forum rules in there.

3. Agreed

4. Yes, people can always edit their own posts in any forum unles I go profile by profile and manually turn the settings off.

[Jikanta]

My only questions are who would be the selected few who could anwser posts? Would there be some kind of test?

(Edited after I realized that I had posted two questions...)

Yes, I'm glad you asked! I am drawing up just such a test right now. I was head herald last year at Armageddon and will be again for this year's Armageddon, so I believe I am qualified for the job.

All people who are approved to post answers in the Rules forum will first have to pass this test, AND also must have a good behavioral history on the board. (I.E., you have to know your **** and be nice about it too.)

[Rroki]

I am 110% changing the forum. It would eliminate a lot of confusion.

[Plithut]

I just have a few conflicts with what is being said.
I know that you are probably going to have some way to initiate people into the board. my questions are;

1. who would be the judge for people getting in?

2. what if the person who was judging who gets in does not like the person
that is applying to get in?

3. Can we take a multiple shots at getting into the board?

4. Can you make it so that the person who starts a thread can respond in that thread but not into the rest of that forum?

edit: changed some incorrect grammer to make myself look less stupid

[Thorondor]

1. who would be the judge for people getting in?

2. what if the person who was judging who gets in does not like the person
that is applying to get in?

3. Can we take a multiple shots at getting into the board?

4. Can you make it so that the person who starts a thread can respond in that thread but not into the rest of that forum?

This is just from what I have read above...
1) If you pass the test and have good posting history you will probably get in.
2) Jikanta seems to be taking control of this, she doesn't seem to hold things against people too well.
3) no idea
4) Probably not, I don't THINK that the program allows that. Kind of like the editing thier own posts & such.

Now for how I feel. This probably would be a really good idea that would help cut down a LOT of problems in the rules forum. A good topic name would allow for really easy searching for a topic. If someone comes to the rules area they would just be able to search down the list of names and find what they are looking for.

Jikanta, what type of test are you making? I personally would like to see things in there that are more standards and president and not have the quiz letter by letter from the BOW so people can't just have it sitting next to them to pass the quiz with a 100%.

~?~

[Plithut]

well what kind of program is it... or can you implement another program into the current one? becuase if you can it is not hard to write a Visual Basic program that would allow it so that we could post in the thread that we started and no where else. If someone was able to take multiple shots at getting in then what is the point of implementing the system? Because they could just keep taking in untill they know all of the answers and then get in. If it is to happen then i think that they can only try to get into the board 1 time every 6 months or something.

new question.

What if the board started turning into what it already is? Would there be some type of ban from that board?

[Thorondor]

Plithut, if we only have people who know the rules inside and out as responders to the posts the board probably won't turn into what it is now. Many responders to posts only respond if they have something to add (I'm guilty of not doing this sometimes). Also, if trouble makers weren't allowed to post, then the stupid questions will be answered and left when the good questions will be continued.

But, since the board will be moderated differently, it will be easier to take away posting rights of those people who are causing trouble. So, some type of ban would probably be something good to talk about.

~?~

[Plithut]

Thorondor, thank you for clearing that up for me.

[BROPHEX]

Jikanta-
I'm really interested in what this test would consist of. Do you have anymore information?

[Barahir Ingem]

If someone was able to take multiple shots at getting in then what is the point of implementing the system? Because they could just keep taking in untill they know all of the answers and then get in.

Even if someone is on the responders' list, they can always be removed if they start giving stupid answers.

B. of E.U.

[BigBadger]

I think the test should consist of a 2 hour logged IRC chat between the candidate and Fading.

[Mori]

Good Lord, Big Badger! We're trying to test people here, not kill them.

[Marcadus]

what it's just 2 hours I do twice that every night on MSN

[Mori]

Yeah, but not with Fading.

[Marcadus]

good point

[Valder]

I think the test should consist of a 2 hour logged IRC chat between the candidate and Fading.

Now, come on. Be serious.

Don't you think Fading would get tired of talking to people about rules all the time?

[Jikanta]

Well I made up a 30 question test for the Rules forum and sent it to Kegg (who drew up the Book of War for us) and he took the test, edited a few questions and send it back. So I guess now it's pretty much ready for people to take.

The test covers all sorts of questions about weapons checking and heralding. Some of the questions are True/False, some are multiple choice and some are short answer. I think the test is a bit hard but not too difficult that nobody will pass it. I will allow up to 3 wrong answers for a passing grade. I figure 27 correct out of 30 possible questions equals 90% correct answers, which is an A grade, and I don't want people who know less than 90% of the rules to be answering the questions. So 4 wrong answers fails. I also threw in a few auto-fail questions that if you get wrong you fail completely.

In the event that a person takes the test and fails, he/she must wait 1 month before retaking the test. In this time it is advisable that the person read over the Book of War in preparation for retaking the test.

So! Since the poll resulted that over 70% of the people who voted want to switch to the new Rules forum method, I will do the switch as soon as I have a handfull of people who have passed the test and are ready to answer rules questions.

If you would like to take the test please email me. jikanta@jikanta.com

[Camber]

I would strongly recommend that the test be given closed-book [of war]. I know there is no way of guaranteeing people would follow a closed-book rule, but you could at least ask people to do the test without looking.

My reasoning is that closed-book would give you a better feel for whether people know their stuff, rather than how good they are at looking up and copying down answers. If you could give the test in person, at events, that would be ideal. But that isn't possible for the outer realms.

[Pickles]

Um, Camber. If most people were good at looking up things in the book of war than this forum woulden't be as busy as it is.

[Jikanta]

Good idea about the closed book thing, I will do that. Sort of an "on your honor" thing.

Also, I have created a private/invisible forum for rules discussion, arguements, development, ideas, etc. This private forum is intended for experienced members to talk together whereas the public "Rules Rules Rules" forum (which I will be renaming "Rules Questions") is more for new members to ask questions and get straight answers.

You can join the "Rules Discussions and Development" forum clicking the Usergroups link in the top right corner of this screen, then select the "Rules Discussions and Development" group from the drop-down menu and click the button to join. Everyone will be approved, but if you cause too many problems you will be kicked out. (I will also formalize these changes in an official announcement later.)

[Kegg]

I think the rules discussion forum should be visible to everyone, even if you have to be an invited member to post.

[Jikanta]

Alright.

[Thorondor]

J, I'll take the test sometime soon.

~?~

[fading]

All realm leaders should take the test!

[Camber]

No. But all realm leaders should know the rules within a short time after becoming a realm leader. If you want to discuss the statuses and requirements of being a realm leader, you can start a new thread.

[fading]

oh okay,

All realm leaders should NOT take the test!

[Marcadus]

Wow I sure did **** that up. I think I would have rather talked to Fading for two hours I would have been easier.

[Calarn the Black]

I'll take it sometime during this week. Maybe I'll pass it.
And if I don't, oh, well, it's encouragement to study up on the rules a bit more. Thanks for this, J. It's a great idea, has a lot of worth, and will probably stop the flaming when people ask questions.

[Forkbeard]

I wnat to take the test. Maybe I'm not so smart as I think I am.
Great Idea, J. Thanks.
FB

[Thorondor]

All realm leaders should take the test!

Good idea fading, all realm leaders that are leaders of voting realms should take the test.

~?~

[Brutus]

I'm actually going to delurk here for a moment...

Only in frickin? Belegarth do we demand that people take a test just so they can be all high and mighty and answer newbie questions on a stupid web forum?

...but we let anybody with no credentials at all go out and herald.

OT- Stash, you are a hypocrite. You answered plenty of questions in your early days with non-insightful and downright inaccurate answers. You still do.

Back to topic: Let's pretend for a second we're adults. Here's the situation:

Fading said something that was wrong and since everybody hates him, it?s a perfect excuse to jump in his **** with both feet. In fact, we're gonna make up a system that will disallow him from being able to make mistakes again... except he will just take the test and become one of the official high-king-rules-nazi-poobah-extraordinaires (are you gonna make a belt sash or a chain or something to brag about this too Stash?).

So what is the point of this really? Is this the best way we could have spent our efforts? Shouldn't we address some of the other problems, like the ineffective and dangerously unregulated heralding policies of Belegarth, instead of this COMPLETELY POINTLESS and useless gesture?

The problem with this is that all the wrong people are going to want to take the test. Just because you know the rules doesn't mean you can explain them well or that you will be able to answer questions in a mature and helpful manner.

I suggest that the moderators pick people who post well and are willing to help and set them up as the answer peeps. Maybe have 3 separate groups: armor, weapons, rules and have a couple people take the job each month. That way nobody gets burned out and everyone can have their turn. If someone starts doing a bad job, or if they just want a break, there should be plenty of takers to relieve them.

Because, seriously, if someone wants to do this, they'll just look at the BoW and mail you back the answers, so the test is moot.

EDIT: J, didn't there used to be something on here, like a little rating deal where you could rate the validity of someone's posts? Maybe we could turn that on again and tie it in to posting in the rules forum. That way its all democratic and aut-o-matic.

[Thorondor]

Alright Brutus, start coming up with more ideas. You don't like this one, so go for it. Oh, and banning fading would probably fix alot of this.

you are a hypocrite...You still do

Hell yea. Get rid of fading. Oh, and who cares, I answer stuff consistantly and keep up with stuff.

are you gonna make a belt sash or a chain or something to brag about this too Stash

Sure, like I wear tons of belt sashes and chains. You want me to make you one also? It'll get to you pretty quickly, unlike some things I was going to buy...

Hell, I go to events to see friends (not fading) and talk around big burning things.

~?~

[Brutus]

What has fading done that is worth banning him for?

He has a penchant for rules lawyering, but the few times I have seen him fight, he hasn't broken any rules. He's guilty of far less actual cheesing than most people are. His cheese questions are really more for theoretical sounding out of the rules. It still boggles me that everyone gets so upset when he posts a new question. Then I remember, everyone takes it personally.

You may find his constant questions annoying, but that's how he gets his kicks (by infuriating you all). So why play into his hand? Sure, he's an *, and he probably deserves every flame he's ever gotten. But he serves a lot more of a useful purpose than a lot of people on this board, even if he has a penchant for getting everyones' hackles up.

He comes up with ideas that are so off the wall that no one has ever thought about them, but I'm sure rounded tips were pretty off the wall at one time, or flails with no ropes, etc. I'm not saying he's produced anything revolutionary, but he has made good points before that illustrate holes in the rules (see: t-shirt with tiny chunks of armor grade leather sewn on).

My point here is that no one here is lily-white, and the people who pretend to be are usually the dingiest of them all. Turn back on the feature of post-rating and let democracy do its job.

We now return your regularly scheduled "Bashing of Fading with Impunity."