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 Post subject: shrugging to avoid chest shots
PostPosted: Sun Aug 02, 2015 6:40 pm 
Underling
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Location: Calgary, Alberta, Canada
Started Fighting: 01 Jan 2000
Realm: Calligarry + Arderyth
Favorite Fighting Styles: Florentine
If I aim a shot at someone's shoulder normally it's fairly easy to tell it could be an arm or a chest shot depending on where I hit.

One of our players however is claiming every shot to that area is arm or head ALWAYS and never accepts any chest shots that come down vertically. Their reasoning is they shrug their shoulders up so there isn't enough gap between the outside of their arm, (as it rotates in to be horizontal instead of vertical) and their head to get a weapon in.

What is the ruling on this kind of shrug vs a shot coming down vertically beside the head?

EDIT:
Well the forum won't let me reply so I'll try to clarify here. We don't have any experienced marshals. I'm the realm leader and he's the 2nd closest we have to a marshal, (that is a major problem.)

I'm aiming at this region because I'm trying to get over his sheild. If i aim any lower i just hit sheild.

Ignoring for now the issue of him taking shots as you guys can't see it, is it possible to change a chest shot into an arm shot by rotating the shoulder up? I think the dividing line when your arms are at your side is supposed to be straight up from the edge of your torso, but where does the dividing line end up when your arm is straight out to the side? Does your "arm zone" now start halfway closer to your head, or is it still straight up from your torso?


Last edited by Moginheden on Mon Aug 03, 2015 10:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: shrugging to avoid chest shots
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:38 am 
Become One With the Wind
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Location: Cedar Falls, IA
Started Fighting: 01 Apr 2001
Realm: Nan Belegorn
Unit: Hellhammer
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword & Board
Seems like cheating to me, but I haven't seen it in person.

It *is* legal to manipulate your body in order to avoid a hit, but the way you've described the movement sounds unlikely to me. Do you have marshals on the field? Have them watch the person in question when it happens. They can make a (relatively) unbiased call one way or the other -- that's part of their job.

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 Post subject: Re: shrugging to avoid chest shots
PostPosted: Mon Aug 03, 2015 7:13 am 
Slayer
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Location: Carbondale, IL
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Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: Red Sword - S&B - Florentine
It sounds sketchy. To address the consistent allocations of shots to the head: The way you describe it makes it sound like he's headboxing, which is a tactic whereby a fighter intentionally moves their head in the way of shots and then refuses to acknowledge any legal strikes following the strike to the head. It's a bit of a gray area. 3.4.5 states "A single strike can only damage one Target Area." This is where we get the "one swing, one hit" rule. So it could be interpreted to mean that if a fighter is struck in the head solidly, then a strike by the weapon to a target area below it, such as the shoulder, is negated because the weapon already struck a target area (3.4.5. doesn't say it has to be a legal target area). However, 3.4.5. also says that a single swing can only "damage" one target area. No damage is done by a swung weapon to the head, so it could be read to mean that the strike hasn't done damage to a target area, and thus its deflection to another area is still a live shot. However, grazing shots on other limbs into a solid contact still count, so grazes from the head to shoulder are still good, for sure. If you're nicking his ear and then hitting his shoulder, if he's not taking the hit he's cheating.

As for him allocating those shots to the outside of the arm, it's hard to do anything about it unless a marshal actually sees him clearly getting hit on the torso and calling it arm. Your best bet is to change your shot when fighting him. I would recommend dropping your shot a couple of inches into the chest pocket, rather than aiming for the top of the shoulder. It's a bit harder on the tip of the sword, but it's impossible to allocat elsewhere without blatant cheating. If you're unfamiliar with the shoulder pocket, feel for your pectoral and move towards your shoulder/end of your clavicle. It should dip noticeably into a pocket. A shot landing here cannot slide off, and can't be called arm or neck/head.

Finally, regardless of the legality of it, it sounds like this guy is behaving in an unsportsmanlike manner. Talk to your realm leaders about it. Even if this guy isn't cheating, he could be causing harm to your realm. Ignoring issues with problem members only gives them more time to drive away your good members and make your field a toxic place.

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 Post subject: Re: shrugging to avoid chest shots
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:04 pm 
Ninja
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Like the others said it sounds sketchy, even with a full rotation up you could still be hitting torso, the strike counts where the worst of the damage hits, do if he gets hit in the arm and torso from one swing it goes to torso. I think it is possible to move your shoulder in such a way as to get your arm in the way of the shot. I'm sitting here at my desk looking like an idiot watching how the seam on my shoulder moves as I throw my arm up. So I think the shot calling is suspect.

That said if someone is throwing their body around to block that shoulder the way you are describing they are going to be way out of position. They will be opening 5 hits to guard against one, and they shouldn't be able to do it fast enough to stop your shot from hitting torso anyway, the exception to that being if you telegraph a lot or swing really slow. If you do telegraph a lot, telegraph the shoulder then punish the ribs when he throws his arm up.

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 Post subject: Re: shrugging to avoid chest shots
PostPosted: Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:01 pm 
Hero
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Location: Arcadia, CA
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Any chance of taking video of what the fighter is doing?

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