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 Post subject: Checking side of pommel
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:59 am 
Underling
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I have heard from several sources that feeling core through the side of the pommel is not a failing point. True or false?

If this is not a failing point, why is the side of the pommel not tested as a regular non-striking surface?

EDIT - I would tend to go with Kage's interpretation, as a pommel is a non-striking surface. If my pommel is a foot long for some stupid reason, I expect that foot of incidental padding to be properly padded to prevent injury.

The length of the pommel is not counted as part of the handle length when measuring a weapon last I checked, and therefore should be checked like a non-striking surface and not a handle. Any input Brutus?

EDIT 2 - Thurat, I see where you're coming from in that it's no more dangerous than having a handle at the same location. My issue is that if this surface is not being checked, you can theoretically have more than the maximum allowed max handle length (By having cheap padding that exposes core), without having it measured as handle length due to being counted as part of the pommel.

Example:
A 36" weapon is allowed 12" of handle.

3" pommel + 15" blade + 6" haft padding passes
5" pommel + 15" blade + 4" haft padding passes

If those pommels are not checked for padding safety, why are we counting them as a non-handle portion of the weapon? You could make arbitrarily large pommels that don't pass as haft padding, but the weapon would still pass because we don't check it.

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Last edited by Akroth on Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:58 pm, edited 9 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Checking side of pommel
PostPosted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:39 pm 
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1.1.4. Pommel - Non-striking Surface that covers the end of the Handle.

1.3.2. All non-striking surfaces must be padded adequately to prevent personal injury from incidental contact.

Relevant rules posted above. If I can feel core on the pommel whether it is the side or the face I fail it for not having adequate padding same as I would the flat of a sword or any other surface I can feel core through.

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 Post subject: Re: Checking side of pommel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 7:57 am 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
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I disagree with Kage's interpretation for a couple reasons, with one exception. As long as the end of the core cannot be felt, I believe it is fine. As he quotes above, the purpose of a pommel is to pad the END of the core.

What is the difference between a pommel and a padded handle? If I were to use foam to pad my handle, where does the pommel end, and the handle begin? Again, the key is that the end of the handle is padded, not some arbitrary portion of core that makes up the rest of the handle. This is the legalistic argument.

Common sense argument: Can anyone tell me what is usually found next to a pommel during combat? Could it be... a FIST???? (which, by the way, we do not require to be padded at all).

Backstory argument: The reason pommels are required, and there is no rule about padding on the handle is because of the potential for a penetrating injury from a sword being swung and the bottom/end of the weapon going into someone's eye (or really anywhere else). Yes, it would hurt to get hit with unpadded core from the handle, and you might break your nose or some teeth, but these are not life-changing injuries. It is easy to imagine someone losing an eye from an unpommeled core. This is why the rule stipulates the end of the handle, but not any part of the handle itself.

In conclusion, as long as a pommel is stable (doesn't seem like it will fold over, exposing the end of the core), prevents the end of the core from being felt, and passes template, it is good.


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 Post subject: Re: Checking side of pommel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 5:12 pm 
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I have been handed weapons where the person who built it just wrapped duct tape around the end until it met template then a foam cap on the butt. Sorry that is not an adequately padded non striking surface. I failed the weapon for pommel not being padded enough. I have also been handed weapons where the foam on the pommel was so broke down the end could be slid sideways and you could feel core form the side of the pommel almost the same a a blown out sword tip. Again not enough padding. Brutus can disagree all he likes, but I will always rule towards the side of safety if I find something questionable.

The conclusions are basically the same though as he already said. If the pommel isn't coming off, meets template, and padded so I cannot feel core I pass it.

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 Post subject: Re: Checking side of pommel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 9:12 pm 
Only .3% Short Of Perfect
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Actually, you are the one disagreeing with both the traditional, common-sense, and written interpretations of the rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Checking side of pommel
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2016 11:38 pm 
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Akroth you are absolutely correct in your thoughts in your edit. Pommel is a non-striking surface and MUST be padded adequately to pass. Just like any incidental padding on a haft must be padded to prevent injury. If I find a sweet spot on your haft padding hit myself with it or karate chop it and feel core you bet your * I fail that weapon every time. Same thing goes with a shield edge when I check them.

Like I said Brutus you don't have to agree, but I always error on the side of safety. As for my interpretation being non traditional you are dead wrong. I've been playing since 1999 before the split and I have never not even once seen a pommel with just a butt cap on the very end pass. The rules clearly state that a pommel is a non striking surface. The rules state a non striking surface is a padded surface that is not a striking surface. Let me say that one more time padded. Lastly the rules also state all non striking surfaces must be adequately padded to prevent personal injury. Those are the rules; maybe not verbatim, but they are the rules. Common sense tells me if I feel core or extremely hard surface anywhere on the weapon that's required to be padded; then its not padded enough and the weapon fails.

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 Post subject: Re: Checking side of pommel
PostPosted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 10:59 am 
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I agree with Brutus' interpretation of this rule. What injury could arise from the side of the pommel? You are more likely to be struck with the handle or the hand holding it than you are to be struck by the 2" of core that is padded there. If the handle went all of the way to the tip and was then capped with foam, would you say that the weapon has no pommel and fails?

If incidental padding is just what's necessary to prevent injury, then I believe that padding the end of the core meets that requirement.

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 Post subject: Re: Checking side of pommel
PostPosted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 7:09 am 
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Ugh. Seriously? 1: When the BOW calls something incidental padding the implication is that the core wont poke through. Anywhere. BUT, lets just say that Brutus and Thurat are right, core through the side of a pommel is an indication that the pommel has degraded and become unstable. Which is enough for any weapons checker to fail it on the grounds that it's likely to come off in the middle of a fight.

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