Belegarth

by **Jevins** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 7:55 pm

Alright, so I was planning on making a round-shield soon, as to better train myself in shield fighting. However, rather than just diving into it (like any and every other belegarth item I make), I wanted to know what materials are best to use. Specifically, I want to know what type of wood and thickness would be best for an average size round shield core to make it durable and light.

Any other tips on building would also be appreciated (if there is something to avoid that is often done; what types of straps are best; etc)

by **Tordek** » Sun Jul 19, 2009 8:09 pm

i used 1/2" plywood for my round shield, made it a 24" diameter core, which bulked it up to 28" when done, as for straps i used pieces of fairly thick leather (just shy of armor grade) with T nuts and washers, then a cover help tight by shock cord.

by **Cú Éireann** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:11 am

Leather makes for good straps, though I would also strongly recommend the use of old seat belts- very comfortable and very tough.

by **Poo** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 1:16 am

get 5 ply birch underlayment, we call techply. Leather strips and seat belts work well, but i've had mountains of success with backpack straps for the strap on your arm. You can tighten them to your liking, so they fit anyone, and they are padded and very comfortable. One thing that many newer people don't think about is having the bolts point in, towards you if you were holding the shield. this allows you to easily change out the straps without deconstructing the shield. Other than that, follow the instructions on the wiki.

by **Derian** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 9:19 am

If you're going wood, the core choices you'll want are going to be the two mentioned above or 3/8" regular plywood. I'm not sure how much techply costs; if it's significantly more, you're probably better off going with 3/8" plywood or 1/2" plywood.

by **Isk** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 10:56 am

Second all the strap suggestions, go with the 5-ply underlayment, and I would strongly recommend using the t-nuts. They cinch down nice, are their own washer and you never have to take the shield apart to mess with the straps. You can make the bolt work this way, like poo suggested, but the t-nuts are flush with the face and don't need to be glued or anything to stay in place. BTW, Poo, the new avatar is really sweet.

by **Poo** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 12:28 pm

thanks man, it's me at spring wars wearing my realm colors.

I completely forgot T-nuts. They're **** awesome.

by **Tordek** » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:22 pm

just make sure you set your straps where they feel comfortable before you add anything to the front of the shield, it also helps to have a layer where your arm will go as padding (i think that is in the wiki), but bolt up the straps, see how it feels, and make adjustments as needed.

by **Rizel** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:22 pm

Three words: Waffling, waffling, waffling.
If you've got foam coming out of your ears and don't care, then ignore me. If you want to save as much foam as you can, then that's a good method. I dunno how good of a foamsmith you are, but if you've got moderate expirience, certainly give it a try.
Waffled shields are also a good way to get rid of those 2" wide strips of foam you may have laying around that are too short for blades.

by **Rizel** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:25 pm

Enjoy a link to Dag's waffling tutorial page.

http://www.dagorhir.com/gear/content/we ... shield.php

by **p_quick** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 12:46 pm

and you wonder why the gear at rag looks like crap?

by **Satanaka** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 1:38 pm

a lot of good information from above.

To start and train- I'd advise a heavier wood shield. This makes you stronger and you have to be more active with the shield- also helps when someone runs into, bashes your shield or you bash & check with it.

The flush bolts on the outside going in is one of the best advices- then- you can adjust straps. i like the "old Seat Belt" types for forarm and over the shoulder. Make sure to "Double the material over before cutting and putting screws in- use washers on both sides of the straps.

I would also advise to build VERY good edges- so to use in fighting and as the shield sits on it's side.

Best of luck to you- there are so many good people on here to help you along the way.

by **Arrakis** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 2:44 pm

Amen, Peter.

Waffling is what you should definitely do if you hate your equipment, your self, and your opponents. Why on this big green planet would you want to leave **** air pockets in the face of a device that you will be slamming into people with? Do you think that makes it safer, by leaving gaping weak points and structural instabilities?

3 FULL layers of 7/16" thick bluefoam on the front or equivalent (2*.5+1*1/4 2# foams, say), 4 layers of same on the edges.

by **Davit** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:22 pm

I'm going to agree with peter and arrakis on this one. One of the first things you learn when you foamsmith often is that every time there is a split in the foam there is a weakspot. It is the bane of your existance on larger weapons/shields. There is no realistic reason to do this "waffeling" on your equipment, it may save you a few dollars on your first shield, but by the time I've had to recover mine with foam, you will have done it at least 3 times, perhaps more. This doesn't even go into the safety issues that arrakis brought up.

by **Satanaka** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 3:26 pm

Wow- I looked at that instructions and I would have to say that I do not like it or think it is better in any way. It actuall looks like it will take longer due to cutting all the freaking strips.

I agree with the guys above that say this is a poor choice.

Arrakis wrote:Amen, Peter.

Waffling is what you should definitely do if you hate your equipment, your self, and your opponents. Why on this big green planet would you want to leave **** air pockets in the face of a device that you will be slamming into people with? Do you think that makes it safer, by leaving gaping weak points and structural instabilities?

3 FULL layers of 7/16" thick bluefoam on the front or equivalent (2*.5+1*1/4 2# foams, say), 4 layers of same on the edges.

by **p_quick** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 10:59 pm

sinse Saki gave you the heavy board advise, which isn't bad advise, i'll give you the flip side of the shield tech.

I use a coreless strap shield, i would make the shield out of a 2 inch 2.2 plank foam 27 inch shield blank with a 1 inch laminated sheet of 1.5 or 1.7 plank foam for the face of the shield. and a half inch of 1.5 to 1.2 foam on the edge (blue foam might work for that edging). with the edging it becomes a 28 inch shield :roll:

The straping is kind or complicated and you want to put them on there after you laminate the harder foam to the softer foam, so you can fix your straps if they get torn or damaged.

For the straps them self you want to take some strong fabric, trigger or duck cloth. take a 5 inch by however long your straping needs to be and fold it in half and sew it to itself, (with a .5 inch seam allowance) will give you a 2inch tube when you turn it rightside out. Sew one end of them so the become a loop that attaches to it self. take that loop and put a chain link connector throw that loop, * the chain connector (CC) closed, super glue it if you want.

Cut a top slit in the foam and a bottom slit in your shield foam, (where ever you want the straps to be on the shield) feed the straping throw the foam, so that the strap goes from the bottom to the face of the shield and then back to the inside of the shield, send the CC throw first mind you so in the end the CC is just peaking out of the top slot on the inside of the shield, and then the tail end of the strap is flat against the face of the shield, threads throw the bottom slot and hangs loose out of the bottom slot of the inside of the shield.

thread the tail end of the strap up and throw the CC, so if you pull on it, it will come and lay flush on the inside of the shield.

Then take 4 zip ties and punch them throw the foam two on each side of the CC so that it feeds throw the CC and the top slot, then it spans out at least 3-4 inches from the CC and comes back to itself after passing throw the shield foam, and zipp them down as tight as you can to the foam. Ideally you want the zipties to be 90 degrees from one another. so you have 4 on each CC holding it in place inside the slot.

Now sew velcro to the shield straps so that it will hold the straps tightly against your forearm and your hand. i recommend making your straps tight on your arm, because i believe the tighter the straps the better the shield is for you.

Now let me explain why we use the CC to thread throw. all the impact of shield bashing, rimming will eventually tear a coreless shield to shreds. The CCs, because they are ziptied from both sides in two different directions, are unable to move from where they are anchored. The way the strapping feeds throw the CC all that stress we just talked about goes into them and because they are anchored in place all that stress dies with them and doesn't damage the foam of the shield.

This post has been brought to you by Rogue Tech.

by **p_quick** » Wed Jul 29, 2009 11:04 pm

That't what a chain connector is, its actually called a "threaded safty link"

by **Isk** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 1:24 am

Wow, thanks for writing all that up Peter. Now I'm going to go try it out

by **p_quick** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 5:18 am

np =)

by **bo1** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 6:00 am

that stuff will never work, next you going to say to lower your straps 4 inches. crazy talk.

by **calebmonkey** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 9:35 am

you know its a bad idea (waffleing) when arrakis doesn't use math to prove things

by **p_quick** » Thu Jul 30, 2009 12:53 pm

well i thought i would keep my stapping opinions to my self =)

by **Rizel** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 11:57 am

I don't know where you folks get the idea that waffling is to strengthen the shield. The idea is to save a hefty amount of foam. For the first layer of the shield, I have it set as such:

It's a sturdy construction. Yes, I doubt it'll last as long as a shield that has three whole layers, but I'm convinced it will not be a drastic difference. I don't think my shield is going to kick the bucket anytime soon, however.

by **Ramius** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:14 pm

Rizel wrote:I don't know where you folks get the idea that waffling is to strengthen the shield.

I read back over the thread like 4 times and never once did anyone say that waffling "strengthens" the shield.

Arrakis did say: " Do you think that makes it safer, by leaving gaping weak points and structural instabilities?"

and Satanaka did say: "Wow- I looked at that instructions and I would have to say that I do not like it or think it is better in any way."

Each of these statements were probably made in reference to this line in the Waffling tutorial (bolding is mine):

There will be lots of air pockets. Don't worry about them, they will actually make the shield safer.

Personally, I don't like the technique either as having those air pockets allows the foam to flex and bottom out on the wood. It is also a good way to have someone's finger go straight through the foam over the air pocket. I have seen both of these happen on swords and would assume the same to be true on shields.

-Ramius

by **Rizel** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 12:37 pm

I don't know who in their right mind is poking shields. I understand accidents happen, but that's why we have safety tests. If my shield doesn't pass, does anyone have to worry?
Besides, I don't see how a sturdy shield is going to fall apart in my arm anyways. If it does, I'll certainly tell you, solely to inform people of it's faulty construction and ways on improving it.

by **Arrakis** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:08 pm

Rizel:

What you're doing when you construct a shield in that manner is reducing the amount of foam between the person receiving your shield bash and the wooden core of your shield. This is universally regarded as a Bad Thing if it reduces the foam to a level widely considered unsafe (protip: two layers of bluefoam is considered unsafe).

You really aren't saving that much foam. Like, maybe 3 dollars worth, 6 max if you're building just a stupid huge **** shield. Just throw down the other Lincoln+Washington combo and make SAFE equipment that won't hurt your opponent if you go to bash him and, say, his elbow gets hit with one of the points where there's only 2 (or possibly even 1!) layer of foam over the core.

by **p_quick** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 4:44 pm

basicly what it comes down to is the idea that "waffling" the foam is generally a bad idea because it thins the padding on the shield, and gives it more seams to come apart on.

While you may save a little weight, and maybe a little $$ as arrakis says, you are giving up the long lasting, sturdy, and solid benefits of using 3 layers of solid foam.

So maybe you can make a waffled shield for a tourney shield, maybe...but if you are gunna do that then just go all foam and forget "waffling".

Also, if you are using blue walmart pad for a "waffled" shield face it's gunna make a piece of **** shield no matter how much "waffling" you have on it. the last thing you want is to make blue foam weaker then it already is.

So while i applaud your zeal on your "waffling" technique, i think it's pretty much a bad idea, and would highly recommend a new fighter asking "how to make a round shield" not to use your "waffling" technique.

Further more, if you are so sold on your technique that you are going to continue using it then more power to you. but again i think you should try what the other people in this forum have suggested, and i think you will find that you were all along, surprisingly :eek:

, wrong about your "waffling" tech.

by **Rizel** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:18 pm

You assume I've never used a solid foam shield before, then? I have, and after feeling the waffled shield with a many sturdy punches vand kicks while against a cement wall, I'm convinced it will pass.
My question to YOU is have you ever used or felt a waffled shield?
Tell you what: As I said before, I'll test out this shield If it fails I'll say so and go with the common technique. Isn't that a hugew part of foamsmithing? Testing out new ideas and reporting pros and cons? I'll do just that.

by **Arrakis** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 8:39 pm

You aren't listening.

You aren't innovating a new design that will improve tech and increase the lifespan of gear; you're trying out a method for what is admittedly skimping on foam to save money and a little weight (as though core weight isn't the bulk of the weight on any cored shield).

Quit it.

by **p_quick** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:35 pm

Rizel wrote:You assume I've never used a solid foam shield before, then? I have, and after feeling the "waffled" shield with a many sturdy punches vand kicks while against a cement wall, I'm convinced it will pass.
My question to YOU is have you ever used or felt a "waffled" shield?
Tell you what: As I said before, I'll test out this shield If it fails I'll say so and go with the common technique. Isn't that a hugew part of foamsmithing? Testing out new ideas and reporting pros and cons? I'll do just that.

i'm not assuming anything of the sort. maybe you should reread my last paragraph i wrote. I invited you to do just what your last post ended with.

oh yea, and i fixed your post for you

you are welcome.

by **Big King Jimmy** » Fri Jul 31, 2009 10:58 pm

If I just mail you 6 bucks will use just buy an extra roll and stop being such a cheap *?

by **Rizel** » Sat Aug 01, 2009 11:06 pm

To quote my economics teacher: "I doo wut ah wawnt!"
A friend and I practiced with our waffled shields today. Nobody's fingers were lost.

Oh, and Jimmy? If I mail you a fist, will you punch yourself repeatedly with it and quit being such a floppy *?

Seriously. You guys are getting terrinbly worked up. If something is wrong, let me explode because of my faulty shield and I'll learn from it. Honestly. Of course, if anything, I'd sooner toss this shield for it's core; it's 1/4" plywood for pete's sake. I'll make a better sheild out of this mythical techply stuff some time, and depending on my supply of foam, I may or may not choose waffling. That is, to be honest, the reason I bothered witrh waffling. Yes, I know, only $6, but when you're jobless and owe collectively over a grand to folks you hardly know uyou may better understand my position.

by **Poo** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:11 am

its not you getting hurt by the shield we're worried about. you need to worry about hurting me with it. we'd have problems.

by **debuenzo** » Sun Aug 02, 2009 12:45 pm

To the original poster,
Add a layer of blue foam on the core where your arm will go when you are holding the shield. Also, when measuring your straps, take this arm padding on the back of your shield into consideration; otherwise, you might make your arm straps too snug.

by **p_quick** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:43 am

Rizel wrote:
Seriously. You guys are getting terrinbly worked up. If something is wrong, let me explode because of my faulty shield and I'll learn from it.

I'm calmer then you are dude

by **bo1** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 9:34 am

JESUS walter will you calm down?

calmer than you dude. calmer than you

by **p_quick** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:30 am

i'm finishing my coffee

by **Arrakis** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:39 am

Peter is non-collinear.

by **p_quick** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:47 pm

you see that's funny because my papa is a math professor.

by **Satanaka** » Mon Aug 03, 2009 12:49 pm

I in no way mean to sound like an ass- if money is so tight that $6 keeps you from having a shield that is MUCH better and safe- then I'd say that you don't need to be fighting- But working.

If your in High school or college- I can understand that money is tight. peopel have been giving you good advice. I don't think anyone is trying to miss lead you.

If I was very tight on $$ as you described- I think that if I made a shield it would be a round shield so that one roll of blue foam could have taken care of it.

But- to each their own- best of luck

Rizel wrote:To quote my economics teacher: "I doo wut ah wawnt!"
A friend and I practiced with our waffled shields today. Nobody's fingers were lost.

Oh, and Jimmy? If I mail you a fist, will you punch yourself repeatedly with it and quit being such a floppy *?

Seriously. You guys are getting terrinbly worked up. If something is wrong, let me explode because of my faulty shield and I'll learn from it. Honestly. Of course, if anything, I'd sooner toss this shield for it's core; it's 1/4" plywood for pete's sake. I'll make a better sheild out of this mythical techply stuff some time, and depending on my supply of foam, I may or may not choose waffling. That is, to be honest, the reason I bothered witrh waffling. Yes, I know, only $6, but when you're jobless and owe collectively over a grand to folks you hardly know uyou may better understand my position.

by **Jevins** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:18 am

Wow. I feel like I've gotten a lot of good advice, and I appreciate it greatly.

I think, personally, I'll stay away from the waffling. First off, I feel like the foam I cut will stick better if it's just three solid pads of blue foam, rather than strips that might come apart if not glued completely kosher.

by **Jevins** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 12:24 am

Oh, and I've been making weapons for a solid 5 years now, so I'm not too worried about experience.

I've tried coreless (well, with no WOODEN cores, at least) shields, but I don't like the way they feel. They feel too flimsy, and too light. I like some weight on a sheild, but not a whole lot. I want to be able to keep fighting, so I think I'll go with techply (if I can find some in this town), and just add a little extra weight using foam. I like having a bit of weight on the sheild and feeling more sturdy.

by **Satanaka** » Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:37 am

First 4 shields I made- were solid wood- very heavy and they are still around and in good shape- heavy as heck- but still going- it's great to train with and not to many people are going to knock you over or kick it with any sucess.

Hmmmm.... i need to drag those out and get my quires using them.... yeah- that's it...

Thanks for reminding me! :devil:

Jevins wrote:Oh, and I've been making weapons for a solid 5 years now, so I'm not too worried about experience.

I've tried coreless (well, with no WOODEN cores, at least) shields, but I don't like the way they feel. They feel too flimsy, and too light. I like some weight on a sheild, but not a whole lot. I want to be able to keep fighting, so I think I'll go with techply (if I can find some in this town), and just add a little extra weight using foam. I like having a bit of weight on the sheild and feeling more sturdy.

by **Aleksii** » Sun Aug 16, 2009 9:56 pm

If you are having trouble finding techply try surply at home depot, it is only three ply though.

by **zeroek** » Thu Apr 15, 2010 7:48 pm

I was directed to this thread from another forum for Peter the Quicks all foam Shield build. And I bring it back up to the top to request pictures of what your shield looks like on the strap side. I'm trying to make my own all foam round and want a good successful build.

by **p_quick** » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:11 pm

hey zeroek,

sorry i didn't get this up sooner. I just now saw your post because a friend wanted my instructions.

so for what its worth and almost 8 months late here ya go

by **Forkbeard** » Tue Dec 07, 2010 9:57 am

The funny thing about Rizel's * is that he says he's joblees and $1000 in debt and thinks thats hard. HA. You have no idea what kind of debt you're going to in to whom in the near future. $1000. **** hilarious.
Thanks for the pic's Pete. Your instructions all make sense now.
I'm going to do this later this week on my 36". I used Zip ties and leather. I was working great, but I snapped a zip tie in the cold Saturday. I like the way your using Chain connecters. Clever Rouge
Yeah, that's right rouge.
FB

by **p_quick** » Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:09 pm

haha, thanks FB =)

rouge out

by **Blackwolfe** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:07 pm

Hey Peter, is the shield in those pics right side up? So your arm is at the lower third of the shield?

by **p_quick** » Sun Dec 12, 2010 5:28 pm

yep is sure is. =)

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