Materials for Cores

Making Weapons and Shields

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Materials for Cores

Postby Kansas » Tue Oct 20, 2009 11:45 pm

Hi,

I know I am going to get chewed out for this... I am brand new to belegarth. I am currently working with an experienced player and building my first weapon. My question is this, has anyone tried high capacity Techtron PPS, Acrylic based, or High Density Polymer .250" or .375" rod for a core? These materials come at about 10-15 dollars per foot and have tinsel strengths between 7,500-23,000 psi. It offers almost zero flex and you can beat on it with a hammer all day long. I was just wondering. Here is a link to a seller http://k-mac-plastics.com/pps-rod.htm . Any help in this matter would be appreciated.

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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby bo1 » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:12 am

you shouldnt get ripped at all, you asked a polite, well contructed question and prefaced that you are working with a vet and are newer. unlike many recent posts i could read this easily, not only that you have done more than 2 seconds of research on what materials you would like to try.

i have not tried them, fiber glass is the tried and true method with kite spar being a light wieght replacement.

i would say try them, money allowing, get a few different type and sizes. build them the same length and get wieghts, flex, and durability. and then there is cost, i think more than $10 for a 3' weapon is a fair bit of money, and i would not pay more than that unless it was something really light and durable.

new materials sometimes look good in a few areas but will fail in one of the 3 areas. stuff that is stiff and strong tend to be heavy, and stuf that is strong and light tend to break, stuff that is light and doesnt break seems to whip like crazy. just what i have run into in trying a few different things i have found.

i would build each of them in a 32" sword. that way you can get a base line of what they might be good at. once one shows promise get more of it and work out how long befor it whips too badly.

like anything, standardize the builds so that you can minimize the variables and see what material is truely superior, oh and let us know if you find something as durable as .5 fiberglass that is lighter.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Kansas » Wed Oct 21, 2009 12:47 am

I did find some carbon-fiber golf clubs at a thrift store for 99cents. We cut the heads off and this week should be building swords out of them. My concerns are that they have a slow taper to what would be the hilt and second they are hollow. Now for someone who does not hit so hard they would be perfect. I will do some experimentation and get back to you.

On another note has any one tried the fiberglass or carbon fiber wood composite dowels used in new play ground construction?

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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Arrakis » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:12 am

I've heard bad stuff about wood-composites. Have you tried thick-wall kitespar?

I haven't had any experience with PPS (that site lists a minimum order for the .375 stuff as ~$22000 worth, so I don't think I'll be getting any from there, either!). A quick side-by-side with Rigid PVC, though:

http://www.ides.com/generics/PPS/PPS_ty ... erties.htm
http://www.ides.com/generics/PVC/PVC_ty ... erties.htm

shows a high degree of similarity, generally speaking. Your cores would be pretty darn heavy for their size, I think, though probably not too much heavier than similar fiberglass. I don't think, from what I'm seeing in the charts, that PPS would be a significantly better core choice than fiberglass; certainly not enough so as to justify a hefty price increase.

But please feel free to give it a shot if you can get hold of some on the cheap/for free and then report back on what you find!
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Soo Ma Tai » Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:26 am

I have seen a few weapons built from Golf club cores. Make postivly sure they are not some kind of aluminum composite. They are completely illegal for cores. Also used golf club have already had a fair amount of stress put on them, and tend to break sooner than a standard kitespar core.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Isk » Wed Oct 21, 2009 11:38 am

The golf club weapons I have tried don't stand up too well. Hockey sticks lasted a little longer, but still not great.

I ordered in a few poles from Max Gain Systems to test as new cores after I did a comparison of weight, price and wall thickness across fiberglass core materials. My notes are in a chart here. These are not ultralight, they are like mini-band poles, but are lighter than a solid fiberglass core. I wanted something in between a solid 3/8" and 1/2" for blues so I am trying out the 1/2" MGS fiberglass tubes to see how they will pan out. I'm getting a couple 3/4" tubes for min reds as well. Has anybody else already tried these?
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Big King Jimmy » Wed Oct 21, 2009 9:18 pm

Take those golf clubs outside and whack against a tree with a little umph. If they snap, they're no good.

Different club manufacturers build their clubs differently. Saying you've got a golf club is like me saying I've got a sword.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Mekoot Rowan » Thu Oct 22, 2009 8:18 am

wjwetzel wrote:I did find some carbon-fiber golf clubs at a thrift store for 99cents. We cut the heads off and this week should be building swords out of them.


Perfectly legal but not the best idea. I've built abot 10 golf club swords in my time in this sport and only two have lasted more than a month. If you want to use graphite clubs, get a sand wedge or nothing.

Now for someone who does not hit so hard they would be perfect. I will do some experimentation and get back to you.


The thing you'll need to remember is that all weapons need to be checked for full-contact. This means that the biggest and burliest guy on the field should be able to swing as hard as he can and not injure anyone.

Let us know what you find out and thank you for your demonstration of cogent questioning.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Cade » Thu Oct 22, 2009 11:03 pm

Isk wrote:The golf club weapons I have tried don't stand up too well. Hockey sticks lasted a little longer, but still not great.

I ordered in a few poles from Max Gain Systems to test as new cores after I did a comparison of weight, price and wall thickness across fiberglass core materials. My notes are in a chart here. These are not ultralight, they are like mini-band poles, but are lighter than a solid fiberglass core. I wanted something in between a solid 3/8" and 1/2" for blues so I am trying out the 1/2" MGS fiberglass tubes to see how they will pan out. I'm getting a couple 3/4" tubes for min reds as well. Has anybody else already tried these?


I really like the 1/2" fiberglass tubes. They are stupid light, and the foam will wear out long before the core ever breaks. No flex, so you might have to pad them a bit extra if you hit like a beast, but for a 2'- 3' sword, you should be just fine. If you don't want to wait for them to be shipped, you can pick one up at sears hardware. They just call it a rake.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Oznog » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:33 am

No plastic I know of has decent stiffness modulus that I know of, not for 2-3ft weapons.
That is, it COULD be made stiff enough if the diameter were large enough. Sure. Just not in ~1/2" diameter. But solid materials of large diameters will greatly outweigh a kite spar tube. So much that they may even become quite painful.

And the material toughness may be in question. Well, not for UHMW. But acrylic? Once it's made just stiff enough to flex on hard hits, the surfaces won't be able to take the expansion and compression of a high-impact bend. It'll break. The "Mashoonga" swords used a plastic core, polycarbonate (Lexan) which is actually a relatively expensive material, HDPE would have been the cheap way to go. You can look at those for comparison. People who are into hardcore LARP use will break one in minutes. It's been tried. Apparently they can "bonk" just fine, but not "wha-bam!"

UHMW suffers from load creep, especially at elevated temps. That is, lay something on top of it in a hot car for awhile and it'll take a permanent set into a warped shape. This is a significant factor on most all plastics, especially in a long, thin rod which flexes under modest loads. Fiberglass has no measurable load creep.

Of course, PVC has a long history of use in LARP weapons. It does break but not easily except in the cold. It's definitely whippy in the smaller diameters and heavy in the larger diameters. It warps in the heat. I don't expect other plastic types to solve all that in one material.

Carbon fiber golf clubs- lots of people use them in Amtgard, but primarily because they can get broken ones for free, or nearly so, from golf repair shops (Golfsmith). When a club breaks, typically it breaks just past the head (where it's thin) leaving plenty for a sword. Well, anyways- the consensus it that stickjocks can break these fast. It's highly variable because golf shafts come in various thicknesses and stiffness grades and in using only broken ones they have little control over what they get. But, IIRC, they might last a few hours of ditching on average, but won't be a durable, long term core. And many stickjocks have moved away from the "crazy light is awesome" thing, actually preferring the dynamics of a slightly heavier kitespar-and-MC foam sword instead of say golf-club-and-funnoodle. Not just for durability but because they actually prefer the kinetics of a slightly heavier weapon.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Kansas » Fri Oct 23, 2009 2:39 pm

Oznog wrote: from golf repair shops (Golfsmith). .


I literally fell out of my chair at work laughing.

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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Kansas » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:01 pm

This is what I have found out. A. This stuff glues like ****. That is the only word I can find for it. The DAP contact cement will not even stick to the * thing. B. Even to get the first layer to stick you need to use a bonding agent almost like JB weld. However, it is 22-40 dollars a tube. C. Even when it does bond it feels like a brick. I am scared to hit anyone with it, for the simple fact I might break a rib. Also, for the sheer lightness and tinsel strength of Acetals and PPS you loose all of the advantage to the sheer weight of the bonding agent. So, back to the drawling board.

Thanks for your help,

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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby No'Vak » Wed Oct 28, 2009 11:53 pm

I don't know where you buy JB Weld from, but its most certainly not more than $10.

DAP does stick to carbon fiber.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Isk » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:25 pm

Noik, I think he's talking about the plastics at the start of the thread. They were designed for chemical resistance and high wear applications so they should do exactly what is described, be very slick and not bond to anything.

wjwetzel, thanks for trying them out and especially for reporting back on your results. Too few people return to give the outcome of this kind of question.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby No'Vak » Thu Oct 29, 2009 1:44 pm

I stand corrected.

JB Weld is still not that expensive.
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Re: Materials for Cores

Postby Cansu » Sat Sep 24, 2011 11:48 pm

$3/2 oz, last time I picked it up. Fun facts for DIY aquarium people: JB Weld will adhere strongly to glass and PVC, and is fish-safe when cured. File that away for the next time you need to make a sword that contains a goldfish.
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