Possible Legal Crossbow?

[Torix]

So i was going through my old childhood toys, and i came across my crossbow. My parents always freaked out when i shot it cus i would use pencils (which, when fired, would punch holes in cardboard boxes 20 feet away), but it got me wondering if it was bel legal. - Im pretty sure its under 15 pounds draw (you can see how easy it is to pull back in the vid). And making legal bolts would be as simple as getting a dowel and cutting it down to size, penny capping it, and wrapping it with blue/opencell.

Pics:
http://imgur.com/a/eVLT2

Vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkhwT6kAVcc

I can bring it to chaos wars if anyone would like to take a look at it.

~Torix

p.s. Sorry about the pink string.. It was a toy when i was like 8. - If its approved, ill definitely swap it out.

[Doozer]

There have been people posting questions about weather or not hand crossbows are legal semi-regularly for a long time. i think some were inspired by Drow and how they use poison tipped bolts fired from hand cross bows or something similar.

the general consensus is that they can be totally legal, but are often more of a hassle than they are worth. the bolts fall out or misfire regularly.

Never seen one in person, but i want to real bad. i think they would be hella cool.

[barley]

It might be.

A light Bel blot is gonna be at least 50 grams (light arrows run around 75g and a pencil is only 5g. At 10X the weight, it most likely will not be able to push the bolt more than a couple of feet.

Barley

[The Great Gigsby]

1) crossbows are cool but not as practical as a bow
1.2) unless you're Oznog
2) under our current rules, crossbows are gimped beyond any sort of usefulness
3) the current crossbow rules could be modified to accommodate more powerful and functional crossbows while still being safe
4) this would require playtesting involving people bringing out crossbows with a reasonably safe poundage to events
4.1) nobody has really bothered to do this because
4.1.1) the bows we use work just fine for what we do
4.1.2) it's more trouble than it's worth

Did I miss anything?

[Torix]

1) crossbows are cool but not as practical as a bow

It seems it might be useful to be able to pull it and get 1 shot in (if you were fighting sword and board or something similar)- definately more effective than most rocks imo.

2) under our current rules, crossbows are gimped beyond any sort of usefulness
3) the current crossbow rules could be modified to accommodate more powerful and functional crossbows while still being safe
4) this would require playtesting involving people bringing out crossbows with a reasonably safe poundage to events

Maybe a group of people should look into that- i mean, if theres no point in having them, why even bother mentioning them in the rules.

4.1.1) the bows we use work just fine for what we do

Very true.

[Fitz Caliston]

I've used Hand Crossbows alot in Amt, they are fun, are generally safer then most bows because of the Amt ft/lbs rule (your shooting at the equivalent of half draw on a normal 35lb bow all the time) so long as you build your bolts correctly so they don't spin completely around and hit nock first.

Oz is the man for Crossbow questions, I don't know anyone more qualified or versed in them.

[Big King Jimmy]

2) under our current rules, crossbows are gimped beyond any sort of usefulness
3) the current crossbow rules could be modified to accommodate more powerful and functional crossbows while still being safe
4) this would require playtesting involving people bringing out crossbows with a reasonably safe poundage to events

Maybe a group of people should look into that- i mean, if theres no point in having them, why even bother mentioning them in the rules.

But that's just it, no one is stopping anyone. If it isn't being done, it's because no one cares. If they cared, they'd do it. The power is always in the hands of the people. At least until Cedric and Borric have an Emperor off, then we'll know where the true power lies....

[Rhajhiin]

I think this is Oznog using a crossbow here. From the description, this is an Amtgard event.

Even if it's not very practical, I think it'd be kind of awesome to see someone on the field with a crossbow.

I can see there being an advantage if your limbed. Could you use a crossbow while holding a shield? Me thinks I need to re-read some of the rules on this matter.

[Torix]

I can see there being an advantage if your limbed. Could you use a crossbow while holding a shield? Me thinks I need to re-read some of the rules on this matter.

Yes- kyrax uses a normal bow with a shield (as does kyrian i believe).
Also, would that crossbow be bel legal (after we ripped the spoon off of it?)

[Fitz Caliston]

I think this is Oznog using a crossbow here. From the description, this is an Amtgard event.

Even if it's not very practical, I think it'd be kind of awesome to see someone on the field with a crossbow.

I can see there being an advantage if your limbed. Could you use a crossbow while holding a shield? Me thinks I need to re-read some of the rules on this matter.

Yeah that is Oznog with the Ozcam. He really starts to pic up around 5:50 in that vid. Look through the other video's he's posted from that Clan, it is more then practical and effective! I've fought along side of him a few times. He can load and fire as fast if not faster then I canwith my recurve (which is saying alot) and his rate of fire doesn't really slow down like mine does in large melee's when the space gets tight. The crossbow has a much small "personal space" to operate under.

If you look through a couple of his other video's (like this next one) you'll see what I mean http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5uZEkSUjgv0&feature=related

Compare his rate of fire to Ceowulf (the archer with all the blue arrows) when they close on the walls. you can see how many times Ceo gets cut off by his own teammates and has to move completely away in order just to draw and get a clear field of fire, while Oz on the otherhand gets many shots off right in between his teammates, yeah he gets blocked as well here and there but as a whole his ability to shoot in large melle's increases as the teams close.

[Fitz Caliston]

I can see there being an advantage if your limbed. Could you use a crossbow while holding a shield? Me thinks I need to re-read some of the rules on this matter.

Yes- kyrax uses a normal bow with a shield (as does kyrian i believe).
Also, would that crossbow be bel legal (after we ripped the spoon off of it?)

Oz's bow is measured for Amt. Amt uses Inchpoundage to measure crossbows. Inch pounds = draw weight(in lbs) x power stroke (inches) and must be less then 450. 450inch pounds is equivalent to half draw on a 35lb bow at 28 inches (35x28=980ip), (450ip puts it at less then half draw actually). Since you can't Half-draw a crossbow it's a safety issue. At 450ip you can shoot at anyone even if thier less then 20 ft from you.

I'm unaware if Bel uses or would approve a similar system for crossbows (though it would be great if they would).

As far as ripping off the spoon that would be sacrilige! It's all about the spoon! (in reality the spoon is there to hold the bolt in place in combat, yes he could make a better retainer clip but it's kind of his signature.)

[Big King Jimmy]

Bel through around in/lbs as an idea for crossbow weight. It was a huge and long argument, the end result of which was a stalemate. The opposing argument was that slowing down weapons check, with math and measurement, was not worth the advantage of crossbows.

[Fitz Caliston]

The opposing argument was that slowing down weapons check, with math and measurement, was not worth the advantage of crossbows.

That's not surprising having met few of the "expert" archery heralds/checkers. Retarded, but not surprising.

[Big King Jimmy]

I'd love to see your basis of comparison, considering I've never even heard of an amtgard event where they CHECKED weapons. Much less the 3000 or so we do at a single day event, and probably 10,000+ at a multi day event. Anything that lengthens that beyond the several hours it already takes is very well recieved.

[Torix]

Well i finally got around to measuring it, and it weighs in at 13 pounds!

I also found some bolts that came with it (it was a toy when i was a child), but they dont fit bel safety rules for arrows.... HOWEVER, the book of war seems to make a point of distinguishing bolts from arrows.

1.1.9. Archery – Class 4 Weapons including bows, crossbows, arrows, and bolts.

However, only 'arrows' appear to have requirements for design

1.4.8. Archery Restrictions:
1.4.8.1. No compound bows or compound-crossbows.
1.4.8.2. The maximum poundage allowed on a bow is 35 lbs pull at 28 inches of draw.
1.4.8.3. The maximum poundage allowed on a crossbow is 15 lbs at its loaded draw.
1.4.8.4. A draw stop is required to prevent an arrow from being drawn more than 28 inches.
1.4.8.5. Arrow striking surfaces may not easily pass more than 0.5 inches through a 2.5 inch diameter hole. No part of the arrow’s
striking surface may be less than 2.5 inches in any direction.
1.4.8.6. All arrows must contain a perpendicular penny secured at the end of the shaft.
1.4.8.7. The arrow’s striking surface must be constructed of open-cell foam.
1.4.8.8. All arrows must have at least two full fletching.
1.4.8.9. The striking surface of an arrow must be tape free.
1.4.8.10.The arrowhead should not have excess axial or lateral movement.

Infact, it seems that bolts are only mentioned once in the entire book of war. Is there any chance that the crossbow section was unfinished due to lack of interest?

Seeing as the max draw is 15 pounds, i wonder if the same precautions that the arrows have are nessicary?

~Torix

[Cyric]

the head on it would have to be the same size as to not go in someone's eye. some of the rules, such as fletching, would have to be modified, but it's not worth doing since they're so incredibly useless in this game.

[Thorondor]

What "safety rules" are not met by the bolts? The only one that I can think of is that they aren't nearly 28" long, so they can't even fit a draw stop.

As for the rest...see below.

~Þ~

1.4.8.5. Arrow striking surfaces may not easily pass more than 0.5 inches through a 2.5 inch diameter hole. No part of the arrow’s striking surface may be less than 2.5 inches in any direction.

This HAS to be there, don't want anyone's eyes poked out (like Cyric said)

1.4.8.6. All arrows must contain a perpendicular penny secured at the end of the shaft.

Must be there - prevents the shaft from punching though the foam.

1.4.8.7. The arrow’s striking surface must be constructed of open-cell foam.

This should be there since it's head legal.

1.4.8.9. The striking surface of an arrow must be tape free.

Needs to be there since it's head legal

1.4.8.10.The arrowhead should not have excess axial or lateral movement.

Has to be there - don't want the head twisting and hitting someone in the head with a non-squishy part of the bolt.