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 Post subject: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:04 am 
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There is a demand amongst newbies for Katar-style weapons ("Fist Weapons") such as the one pictured below.

Image

There is an obvious safety concern in giving these weapons the ability to stab, as you'd essentially be punching your opponent. Is there any other problem with them?

I figure it would be possible to make such a weapon, so long as it is non-stabbing. The durability of the PVC would be pretty bad, and you'd probably have to have a really short blade in order to make it work without putting too much strain on the PVC, but I see no reason why it couldn't be created.

Personally I would never fight with one, but for those who want to try it out...

Image

The only problem I forsee is that PVC T-joints are notoriously weak and would probably snap after too much use. Other than this, I believe that it would be VIABLE (Although ineffective) to make a slashing-only Katar style weapon. Thoughts?

On a related note, can we have a "Theoretical Foamsmithing" forum so that people don't keep posting this crap on the main foamsmithing board? :P

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:12 am 
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Akroth wrote:
On a related note, can we have a "Theoretical Foamsmithing" forum so that people don't keep posting this crap on the main foamsmithing board? :P


I'm not touching anything else you asked, but this is a * good idea. That way, those who want to deal with "can I make a scythe" can and the rest of the forum doesn't get turded up. It also gives mods a place to bump those threads that's out of the way. We could designate it a flame free zone and let it be.


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:02 am 
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As long as it's not punching, you ~could~ do it. It will break, no doubt about it. The joints will be too weak as you've already said. Teach them to fight with regular swords. They last longer, and everybody has one, so they are easy to find.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:31 pm 
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Show me, in history, a katar that wasn't meant for stabbing someone. They are a slashing (claw) weapon setup, or a stabbing setup on the blade(s). Neither of these are good for being transferred into foam. Plus, when you put your hand at that angle it doesn't lead to good swing strength.

If someone want to try it, go ahead. They need to be ready for it to suck.

PS - I wish I had Blackhawk's photos with the weapon he tied to his wrist...it shows, in a picture, how your wrist angle would be when trying to swing something like this. And the angle SUCKS.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 12:54 pm 
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thats weapon will fail and you should feel bad for taking the time to draw out a design.

Theres is no way to do these without someone punching someone.

Also you will break your * wrist.


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 3:36 pm 
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Varadin wrote:
thats weapon will fail and you should feel bad for taking the time to draw out a design.

Theres is no way to do these without someone punching someone.

Also you will break your * wrist.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 4:42 pm 
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Ignatius is right - let's make a theoretical foam smithing forum and banish these sorts of things.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:12 pm 
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Thorondor wrote:
PS - I wish I had Blackhawk's photos with the weapon he tied to his wrist...it shows, in a picture, how your wrist angle would be when trying to swing something like this. And the angle SUCKS.


Blackhawk wrote:
Make a regular sword and hold it like this, swing it around, fight someone. Image
Then tie it to your arm like this:
Image
Swing it around, fight someone. Then untie it and realize that tying a sword to your arm is stupid. Anyone in martial arts will tell you the same thing.


Anything else haha?

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 5:17 pm 
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HAHA! Thanks Blitz!

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 10:23 am 
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man so okay. it's well stated that this is a bad idea. but if you were going to do it, you'd need to know what it is you're trying to do.

there's two ideas going on here. One is, if you're trying to really push on something, human beings are most comfortable doing it with the heel of the palm. So fist weapons and punch daggers are a method of doing that efficiently. and that is totally out for belegarth. so nevermind that.

the second idea is the one behind arm swords/tying a weapon to your arm. One is the idea of a martingale, which supports the grip and then can continue on to add wrist support. i've worked with paralympic fencers who don't have finger control, and it works to make fencing viable without it. Blitz's picture there is sort of a version of that, done nightmareishly there so it compromises wrist structure while offering no real support. but, not relevant. the relevant concept is the tying to the arm like an arm sword. and what that does bypass the distribution of force past the wrist. like so:

Image

using the idea of levers, the grip becomes a fulcrum, and the impact of striking is put into the forearm. done properly, this could probably be comfortable and let you hit really hard. but it's sort of a misnomer calling it a sword. What it really is, in terms of use, is an improvement on blade of the hand chopping/forearms smashes/elbows. the cimande school of silat has a whole system of forearm conditioning, strikes, and blocks, and you'd probably do pretty well if you were trained in that. but it's a dumb sword, because you lose finger and wrist articulation. probably a great choice if you didn't have thumbs. but in belegarth, probably going to be illegal for anvilling/unbreakable shield.

in that katar linked at the very top, the long metal pieces coming past the grip serve the same purpose. if you're going to slash, you really need to be able to put something like that against your forearm for support. preferably something sort of rounded to give lateral support, like a forearm crutch has. the pvc design lacks that, which, aside from the structural issues, would make it basically unusable.

slightly more plausible structurally would be to put a T at the end of the core.
Image
since it'd be at the center of the grip, you could maybe get away with using a metal pipe t? or at the least when it failed it's right at the end and could be easily replaced.

and then the angled pieces would get secured with strapping tape (the ends are problematic) and then padded in down to the pass the force past the wrist.

still a lot of problems. but at the very least, aside from being ineffective to use (it is!) or violating belegarth playability/balance rules (anvilling), you gotta get some support past the wrist to make it so it won't hurt the user when used as intended.


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 1:46 am 
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The handle is sitting at a 90 degree angle. Its still a punch weapon, So it fails and here's why.

Lets say you make your weapon of slashing only awesomeness and then die on the field. Some new guy picks up your weapon and runs off with it to continue the fight before you have a chance to explain the brilliance of your design and how to use it.
He looks at it and sees a punching weapon even though its not marked stab legal. He punches someone in the back like new people are known to do and ruptures the poor guys kidney because your weapon isn't meant to punch even though it looks like it should be a punch weapon.

This is why you can't have nice things. Not because of what you won't do with it, but because of what some other idiot will eventually do with it.


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2011 4:31 am 
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Now that I think about it, I'm surprised Fatso Mullet Ninja didn't do his Dragon Twister and other goofy moves with a pair of these instead of bokkens thinking it would look "cooler." Unless he just used bokkens because that's what was available.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2011 11:46 am 
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Either way, it does remove two to three (depending on attachment method and how you assign the joints) joints from the effective linkage of the arm, creating a stiffer, less compliant stab/punch motion than a standard sword stab, rendering it a "punch" weapon on thrust attacks.

Just felt like mentioning why it is a punch weapon when you strike with the tip even if the tip is nowhere near your fist.


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:24 pm 
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what about something like this http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2442235861532&set=a.2005592985733.121600.1420899901&type=1&theater it would stop some newb from just taking it when you die


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:30 pm 
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Myles wrote:
what about something like this http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2442235861532&set=a.2005592985733.121600.1420899901&type=1&theater it would stop some newb from just taking it when you die



Can you say broken hand/wrist/arm/lifetime ligament/nerve damage much?

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Sep 12, 2011 10:30 pm 
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I don't see how you would grab it, other than torquing your wrist to grab the fiberglass rod...in which case, you'd be better off with a sword.

If it's grabbing onto that purple thing, it would rip off too easily. And if that's the case, it's clearly punching and no bueno.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:35 am 
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I made a prototype with scraps and tested it out. It works fine and is durable enough to stand up to fighting. The straps easily hold up to fighting with only using cheapo duct tape. And the way it is used has the same effect as a blue shot power wise. Also slashing only so no stabbing or punching motion when in use. The bracer over it also helps hold it in place so the weapon is sturdy and does not shift enough to cause any sort of damage to the wielder. I will do further testing and label it as experimental.


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:05 am 
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Have someone hit it with a red and see how hard it torques your wrist. Start low, then turn up.

It's still an awful design, but feel free to continue this dumb testing. Come back once you break your wrist with it.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:21 am 
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I just don't understand why. Why not a buckler and a blue/green? I just don't understand. And is the bracer attached to the blue? Show pics of your prototype. I really want to see this thing. I really... don't... understand!


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:41 am 
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Label it **** illegal. It is.
You are stupid. You are either going to break your arm badly or it will fall apart.
Where are you? I have a red sword and I would like to show you why we are all saying this.
Do you have health insurance? After I break your arm, I will not pay to get it fixed. I will not take you to the hospital either.
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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:59 am 
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why the hell is this topic still going? Swords FTW

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:19 am 
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http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=2443629096362&set=a.2005592985733.121600.1420899901&type=1&theater you wanted a picture here you go. Fork the way this lines up with the arm it would work more as a brace against an arm breaking from a red hit. The core goes almost to the elbow. Even if you were to hit the very end of the weapon the bracer would keep it secure and not allow the wrist to bend beyond its limits. Tax frog it is not attached to the bracer the bracer just goes over it for increased stability.


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 10:35 am 
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I have agreed to play test this weapon with him. We'll be back with results soon enough.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 11:07 am 
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LOL this thread is still going?

Looks like Myles is going to get limp-wristed.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:42 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 7:50 pm 
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Myles, I'm a complete noob. I have no business commenting on these forums with any kind of authority. Even still you'ce thoroughly trolled me with this **** and I can't help myself.

1) It's a still a punching weapon.
2) This weapons design forces it to be used for anvilling if you block with it.
3) It's stupidly ineffective.
4) You're intentionally trying to not only cheese the rules, but outright circumvent them by getting it passed as a normal blue, and then making it completely illegal. This is the equivalent of someone getting their weapon passed through check, then peeling off the last layer of foam to make it lighter. It's stupid, it's cheating of the highest caliber, it's just about the most dangerous thing you could do.

Note #4 specifically. If I caught anyone trying to do this **** on my field, they wouldn't just get a time out, they're banned for life. It is deliberate, intentional, premeditated, unrepentant cheating with the intention of being dangerous to yourself and others.


Last edited by Mughi on Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:00 pm 
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Mughi wrote:
Note #3 specifically. If I caught anyone trying to do this **** on my field, they wouldn't just get a time out, they're banned for life. It is deliberate, intentional, premeditated, unrepentant cheating with the intention of being dangerous to yourself and others.


Ha ha, Myles:

Image

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:03 pm 
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Just don't call it boffing/boffering. That's not what we do. We fight. With swords. To the sorta-death. I can't stand it when someone says boffering. Plus is means sexin' in the UK.



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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:25 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:31 pm 
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Forkbeard wrote:
Label it **** illegal. It is.
You are stupid. You are either going to break your arm badly or it will fall apart.
Where are you? I have a red sword and I would like to show you why we are all saying this.
Do you have health insurance? After I break your arm, I will not pay to get it fixed. I will not take you to the hospital either.
FB


Would you at least give him a beer after he gets back from the hospital (assuming he's over 21, which I doubt...)?

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Sep 13, 2011 9:43 pm 
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Sadly, he isn't of drinking age. And neither am I, so there will be no beers.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:39 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:25 am 
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Does that mean that you're the Beer Nazi now, Forkbeard? j/k

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:46 am 
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i'll be honest... it's about four in the * morning and im too lazy ta look over all the posts, but from what i did see no one mentioned anviling, so ima do it. no matter what design you people try to do with the arm sword thingy/ tonfa and no matter how you attempt to cheese the punch weapon ban it wont pass. but even if you can get it through on your field it's still illegal. if you get hit in the forearm but miraculously your weapon blocks it since its tied to your * arm, you sill take the arm, no exceptions. if i saw this as a herald id call you dead. and besides you blatantly wont generate enough force with these weapons for any body to take the hit. so break down its illegal, breakable... and if it was'nt it would still be **** useless....... 0.2$

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 6:35 am 
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(For a class 3 only katar): What if there was no or nearly no core? 50% eva, rest poofy open cell. Maybe 1 blue flat over top of all those (looking down like in image). I've heard that a strip of leather can help stabilize ax beards. Just a quick photoshop, I haven't put much thought into it.
The handle would still undoubtedly break though.

(Please do create a Theoretical section, I enjoy reading these, but know how irritating they must be)

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 7:09 am 
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Did you read the **** posts?
PUNCH WEAPONS ARE **** ILLEGAL.
It does not matter if you could make this weapon. I could make one easily, so could any other experienced foamsmith with half a brain. But we don't, BECAUSE ITS **** ILLEGAL.
Please stop trying to figure out ways to cheat.
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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:08 am 
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I have a totally sweet totally legal katar design, Forkbeard.

I mean, it involves some changes to make it stay legal, of course, but it's very similar to the historical katar. It just rotates the handle a little.

Here you go: Super Sweet Awesome Katar Design with Slightly Rotated Handle

It's even strike-legal, not just stab, and fights better than the stupid PVC+Joints designs, too!


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:13 am 
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Holy ****, I never thought of doing it like that! You really ARE smart, huh?








funny funny funny.
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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:35 am 
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Arrakis wrote:
I have a totally sweet totally legal katar design, Forkbeard.

I mean, it involves some changes to make it stay legal, of course, but it's very similar to the historical katar. It just rotates the handle a little.

Here you go: Super Sweet Awesome Katar Design with Slightly Rotated Handle

It's even strike-legal, not just stab, and fights better than the stupid PVC+Joints designs, too!

WOW great idea

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:32 pm 
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Forkbeard wrote:
Did you read the **** posts?
PUNCH WEAPONS ARE **** ILLEGAL.
...
Please stop trying to figure out ways to cheat.


Yes, I read the thread in its entirety, and I have known for a while now that punching weapons were considered illegal. It was never explained to me WHY they were illegal- I always got some smart answer in all caps simply saying that it WAS illegal. I always assumed it had something to do with a construction being similar to a sword and not adequate padding and safety measures; as too much core, too little padding, and too much force- or the core breaking through no matter the foam ... and too much force.

I am not trying to cheat, I was just trying to help the guy out. I thought that taking the blue aspect of the weapon out, and the core, may change it enough.

Thurat wrote:
How hard would it have been for one(1) poster to stop the thread at that? If we just go around yelling at people because they want to try something they are not aware is dangerous and incapable of passing by current rules what kind of impression is that going to convey to the new smith and any others who read that thread? To me, that tells them that they shouldn't ask questions, because they are probably wrong. That is why I defended OP. Not because I agree with his idea (I don't), but because anyone who is going to have their idea, original or not, stomped on deserves a better explanation that "Because we say so."
Thanks for not tearing me a new one in the process of providing me the information I need, Galya and Jimmy. I know that just the idea of this kind of weapon is alarming and extremely dangerous, but we can't crucify people because they are unaware of something they haven't been around long enough to experience for themselves, that's why they ask for advise here.


Maybe there should be a sticky in the Foamsmithing with plenty of quoted reasons why punching (and swung-green I just remembered) auto-fail. Then you wouldn't have to flame each person individually, you could just direct them to it.
*Ah, couple years ahead of me; why aren't they instantly directed here?
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=18631

Thurat wrote:
Also, yes, I do realize that there are a million threads discussing the topic, that does not necessarily mean they are correct, and it does not mean that I would be able to discern from the 20 something posts flaming the OP what exactly has been determined by the discussion, or as is outlined by the BoW.


Theros the Large wrote:
Swung green weapons FAIL. End of story.
There is far too much risk of a piece of core tearing through the foam and really hurting someone. They fall under the same kind of restrictions as punch weapons.


Big King Jimmy wrote:
No, you're missing the point. There is NO SUCH THING as a swung green.
...
If you thrust with a weapon, it's green, if you swing it, it's blue/red. Period.
Now, what people have problems with is a weapon whose core is perpendicular to its target at the point of impact. And there IS no rule against it, and honestly I feel the hit test tests to make sure such a weapon is safe. But when a vet comes on and tears apart an idea of a punching weapon, it's because this concept terrifies us. We see it enough with javs and arrows and spears, and these are the weapons I see hurt people the most, next on the list is giant reds. When people want to combine the two on the field, yes, we're terrified.


Big King Jimmy wrote:
The idea of the punching weapon is that when the blade makes contact with the target, the spot it hits is not on one side or the other of the wrist. Normally it would be, like on a normal blue, this causes the wrist to break (not like broken bone, but like your wrist bends.) and your shot loses some power. When the target is in front of your first, that power isn't lost, and much more energy is transferred into your opponent, exactly was would be causes here, or any weapon with a striking surface in front of a fist. It's brass knuckles with a bunch of * on either side.


Arrakis,
Sadly, I knew instantly what you link would be, before reading it :roll: . Makes a good point though.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 1:35 pm 
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Someone saw through my subtle, low humour!



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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Mon Nov 21, 2011 8:17 pm 
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Dude, it is not our job to explain WHY things are illegal. Punch weapons are specifically banned in the **** rules, it does not matter why. It's not a **** suggestion. It is a hard, definitive BAN on an item.
Trying to find a way to used a banned item is trying to find a way to cheat.
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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Tue Nov 22, 2011 11:52 pm 
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(Though I saw through it by assumption, the humor did not go unappreciated as my response may have lead you to believe :P well played.)

I know that it is not yours, or anyone's, job to explain why, but if you do explain why, then it becomes so apparent and obviously clear that there is not even a chance of misunderstanding that it is something of a matter concerning our anatomy and physics, not how you build the weapon- WHY IT IS ILLEGAL. If you simply say no without reason, then they will assume it's due to how they presented their idea, and try another method. If you instead say "No, it's impossible; it's due to how you use the weapon and it applies much greater force and has an increased safety risk- so don't even try" then it should end immediately.

I suppose it was stupid of me to go ahead and throw out another idea of construction for him- but in part, that was because (once again ...) that I didn't know the reasons WHY.

Also, if you're taking the time to:
Go to the website,
Check the Foamsmithing section,
Enter a topic that you immediately recognize as a problem,
Then go on to write a paragraph-length response ...
You easily could have taken the extra 30 seconds to copy and paste a link into your post.

I have done a lot of reading here and I know that when you take a stance on something that you believe, you continue to defend it because it is your own opinion (and most of the time I agree with you, or at least understand where you're coming from) and I truly respect that. But I don't respect the immediate, senseless aggression and abrasive attitude that you show everyone- especially to new-comers. I'm sure I'm not the only one that when I first visited this site a few years ago, I was almost scared to ask questions because of the near overwhelming sense of hostility whenever someone said something incorrect. I agree with all the typical "KISS" and "If it isn't broken..." reasons; but for all the talk I see about how creativity is encouraged and supported, people have a funny way of showing it. It is well-stated in the quote I included in my last post:
Thurat wrote:
If we just go around yelling at people because they want to try something they are not aware is dangerous and incapable of passing by current rules what kind of impression is that going to convey to the new smith and any others who read that thread? To me, that tells them that they shouldn't ask questions, because they are probably wrong. That is why I defended OP. Not because I agree with his idea (I don't), but because anyone who is going to have their idea, original or not, stomped on deserves a better explanation that "Because we say so."


And because I can easily **** assume that this **** argument isn't going to go the **** anywhere past another **** response full of **** expletives aimed right the **** at me, cause I'm so **** stupid, I'm going to stop the **** right here. Is that even legible?

*Came back to edit this afterthought in: Blitz even took the time to PM ME an explanation, and even after a somewhat (regrettably) irritated response by me, he was still incredibly courteous and understanding.

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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 8:43 am 
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The reasons why this is illegal are written out a hundred times in this very form. Use the search function, dummy. Thats what its for, so we do not need explain the physics of it every week when some new * wants to be special.
READ MORE argue with your betters less.
I agree that in life, when faced with rejetion, one should try to overcome it. But this ain't LIFE. These are the rules to a game. In a rule situation, when told something is against them, you just stfu and comply.
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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 9:50 am 
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The kinematic chain of the arm has too many singularities at the point of striking when used with a weapon like this. It produces an unsafe degree of force transmission due to the high stiffness and subsequent low compliance of the end effector at that point.

Geez.


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 Post subject: Re: Katar Design
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2011 10:28 am 
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