Slaughter Sword Advice?

[Trodaire]

I recently came across a PRISTINE condition 3/4" diameter 12' long fiberglass rods and want to make a Slaughter Sword. Total weight in a 6' long double core weapon would be around 5 pounds with 3/2" of blue camping pad on the striking surfaces and 1/2" on the non/striking surface (yes I know I used an improper fraction and I'm going to use more).

I want some advice.

-Would two 3/4" fiberglass rods be okay for a 6' long red/green?
-Would a cover made of a VERY durable soft black fleece be a good idea? (already have that material and wouldn't use it in the rain)
-Would 1" padding be enough (would be 7/2" wide) or should I stick with 3/2"?
-Is 1/2" of padding on the non-striking surface okay?
-How much open core foam should I have along the tip for a weapon this size (will have 5/2" of blue foam out past the core on the tip)?

MATERIALS I HAVE:

-The two fiberglass rods.
-Linoleum floor double sided tape (works GREAT for fiberglass and blue foam).
-Five 4" wide 6' long blue pad strips and an uncut 20"x6' pad.
-Ultra Heavy 3M duct Tape.
-50' length Poly clothesline.
-cloth tape.
-Really durable black fleece.

'm pretty strong and I like a front heavy sword so counterbalancing isn't worrying me since I plan to have a 2' long(ish) handle.

I would like some durable crossguard ideas. I tend to eat a lot of glancing blows.

A friend said they will give me some open core foam for my weapon tip after I start.

I can get some plywood if needed.

I'll edit my first post to respond to constructive feedback.

EDIT:

I moved to the Lewiston/Clarkston area and heard about Belegarth from a friend then saw some people practicing on campus. I was pretty much immediately interested because of the lack of magic (lightning bolt! lightning bolt! lol).

I was pretty sure that I'd be okay with one 3/4" piece for a 6' weapon. I'm just not used to making a weapon this big.

I am not completely new to crafting this type of weapons but I am new to this venue. I learned a lot from my parents about construction because they had their own company and said I should learn as much as I can on the job site back when I was 15. I made my own 9 foot wide kite when I was 16. My cousin asked if I would craft some weapons for a few people in the Boise area who started up their own armed combat club after we got done watching Role Models. He gave me some stuff he printed off on basic how to make a sword and the safety requirements, plus some materials lists people use in LARP.

I've made and sold about 9 single hander swords usually using doubled up 1/4" fiberglass rods epoxied then taped together at about 30" in total length with rubber epoxy dipped ends. I tried using polycarbonate once but it snapped when somebody tripped onto it apparently. I made the padding for them out of high density 1" polypropylene foam bricks bound together with construction grade rubber cement with a layer of 1/2" foam padding along the edges.

I just don't know much about making the two handed weapons as far as safety precautions so I thought I'd try and get some helpful feedback, and so far so good!

[Arrakis]

Ok, so.

First up, double-coring a weapon is more difficult than building on a single core and 3/4" fiberglass should be sufficient for a 6' sword (someone correct me if I'm wrong here). Unless you've had a lot of experience with double-coring, I would definitely recommend against it for this project.

Second, for a redsword, you want AT LEAST 4 layers of bluefoam over the core, and that's for a 48" red. That comes out to 1 3/4" (1.75") of foam on each striking surface. For a 6 footer, I wouldn't want any less than five layers of blue on each striking surface; for a super-heavy core red, I'd definitely want a stiffer, heavier foam against the core, then softer foams on the striking surface. Non-striking surfaces should have at least one layer of blue (flats) with tape over them or two or three layers (blade-edge side, like on a glaive haft).

Third, the heavier your final build weight, the more heavily padded the weapon will need to be; otherwise, you just created a mass weapon (in real life. Like, that can hurt people, by way of dislocating and breaking joints and ribs). So, consider.

Fourth, you're asking about open cell; I assume you mean for a stabbing tip. You want 1" of marine foam over the bluefoam reinforced with strapping tape. Look on the wiki; there is a tutorial.

Fifth, don't use fleece for the cover. Get some canvas. It'll be less likely to rip, to waterlog, to stretch, etc.


I have no advice on crosshilts.

[Arrakis]

Corollary, since I just noticed your "started" date:

The first foamsmithing projects any new smith should tackle are:

1. A bluesword with PVC and camp pad.
2. Another bluesword.
3. Another bluesword, possibly with stabbing tip.
4. A shield, probably on plywood, strapped, 3 blue on the front, 4 blue on the edges, 1 blue on the rear face (so you don't eat plywood on a bad bash).
5. Any other blue weapon (club, bat, axe, mace, sword...)


At this point, you should have a reasonable understanding of cutting, gluing, foams, tape, covering, and balancing/weighting. Now, you have the basics necessary to start building things like redswords, glaives, spears, etc. without wasting materials on failing, unsafe, or soon-broken gear.

If you have vets in your area, seek them out for advice. Where are you located? What's your local realm? In any case, definitely scope the tutorials on the wiki: http://belegarth.com/begin.php?link=construction and http://geddon.org/index.php/Category:How_to_build


Welcome to the game.

[Brutus]

3/4" fiberglass with the sides shaved off is used by Edhellen to make 6' long two-handers. I have made a two-hander with unshaved 3/4", and it's pretty stiff. I don't think doubled-up 3/4" fiberglass would be easy to pad safely. Even if it is done sufficiently to pass a local weapons check, I think there's a good chance that it would fail nationally a good percentage of the time just because the weapon will be extremely heavy and very very stiff (no flex).

If you do attempt this, your padding should probably be 2 to 2.5" wide, and at least 2" thick. You might want to go with adding a mess of open cell/couch cushion and just make this a really heavy massive weapon that hits like a pillow. Such weapons have a history of passing even though a shot to the side of a knee could very conceivably cause permanent damage, because as Arrakis said, you're basically making a weapon that behaves identically to the real-world equivalent, minus the cutting.

[Rasheab]

Trodaire, there is a small group about 35 miles north of you in Moscow. I believe Nekka has moved back there; I'll contact him and ask him to look in on this thread with their contact info.

[Tiberius Claudius]

Arrakis, your second post is much more appropriate.

Even if this weren't a new person, why is this build being encouraged at all?

That core should be saved for min reds/max blues. We should be encouraging use of bandshoppe pole for 5+ foot weapons.

I also worry if even 5 layers of blue would be enough for this monstrosity. As stated, the larger the weapon the heavier it gets the more padding it needs. There is a point of diminishing returns to the point it becomes self defeating.

Progressive foam density is the key.

New guy:

• definitely build many basics.
• Definitely talk to vets and ask them to teach you in person how to do them.
• Definitely wait until you have acknowledged (at least locally) experience before you build reds, spears, and novelty/experimental weapons.

IME/HO do not build this as you currently have it thought out.

[Rasheab]

Even if this weren't a new person, why is this build being encouraged at all?

That core should be saved for min reds/max blues. We should be encouraging use of bandshoppe pole for 5+ foot weapons.

First what are you talking about? 1/2" is appropriate for max blue/min reds. Secondly, just because bandshoppe is the prefered answer does not mean it's the only answer.

Third:

- 3/4" fiberglass with the sides shaved off is used by Edhellen to make 6' long two-handers.
- I have made a two-hander with unshaved 3/4", and it's pretty stiff.

[Tiberius Claudius]

No, no, no, no, no......1/2" round fiberglass will flex out long before 3/4". It is only good for ~30"-32" blues IME, not those around 4' for any amount of fighting time worth the cost and time of construction. I've built 36" blues on 1/2" cores and they flex out within 6 months. I like my weapons to last at least a year, if not longer - even my single blue swords. For the mid-range longer weapons, use the 3/4".

Edhellen et al. may be able to eek out a 6 footer with the 3/4", and that's fine if a professional can do it, but what is the life on the flex of a single cored one? Please shoot me down if these things are just so wicked awesome that they're near invulnerable.

Bandshoppe is by far superior and should be encouraged simply because of that fact. It will never flex out or break as far as our purposes are concerned. IMHO, it is the only acceptable core for serious foamsmiths who want to build weapons > 5' that essentially last forever if cared for properly.

Weapon longevity is my main concern, so I make sure my cores and foams will ensure it.

[Arrakis]

Uhhhhh.

1/2" solid fiber is definitely good, forever, out to about 44". Forever.

Maybe you're thinking of 3/8" and 1/2"?

[Forkbeard]

Dude.
stop. You have great weapon builders in your town. Thrax is awesome and knows all about how to make any weapon. Go to practice and actually LOOK at some weapons. TALK to Thrax and LISTEN to what he says. He will teach you everything these guys have said in person.
you have the right mind set, you just need to see this stuff in real life to understand.
you have access to a good bel group, use it.
fb

[Arrakis]

I am not completely new to crafting this type of weapons but I am new to this venue. I learned a lot from my parents about construction because they had their own company and said I should learn as much as I can on the job site back when I was 15. I made my own 9 foot wide kite when I was 16. My cousin asked if I would craft some weapons for a few people in the Boise area who started up their own armed combat club after we got done watching Role Models. He gave me some stuff he printed off on basic how to make a sword and the safety requirements, plus some materials lists people use in LARP.

I've made and sold about 9 single hander swords usually using doubled up 1/4" fiberglass rods epoxied then taped together at about 30" in total length with rubber epoxy dipped ends. I tried using polycarbonate once but it snapped when somebody tripped onto it apparently. I made the padding for them out of high density 1" polypropylene foam bricks bound together with construction grade rubber cement with a layer of 1/2" foam padding along the edges.

I just don't know much about making the two handed weapons as far as safety precautions so I thought I'd try and get some helpful feedback, and so far so good!

It sounds like you've a good technical background for this kind of work (cutting straight lines, use of glues and contact cements, etc.), but our weapon construction is pretty specific in form for the reason of safety.

Take Forkbeard's advice to learn from the experienced smiths in your area, for sure.

[Trodaire]

I just did an official weigh in of what a single 3/4" core piece 6' long sits around and it's under 24 oz. I weighed the other stuff with it that I would use for 2.5" padding on the 4' long striking surface plus another pound for guesstimate purposes on adhesives and cord and it's at about 50 oz. A piece of 6' bandshoppe pole weighs 40 oz.

I asked my cousin if I wanted to make the weapon safe I sould go with 2.5" padding on the striking surface and 1" on the flats to make it wider to disperse the impact more compared to .5" on the flat would work and he said that 1.5" would be perfect for safety.


He said that because the weapon would be 3.75" wide on the striking surface whereas with 1" padding on the flat it would have been 2.75" on the striking surface. This means it will have higher drag when swung and a greater disbursement of the actual impact as well so it should hit at full strength swings as hard as it would have hit at 3/4 strength swings with 1" padding on the flat.

Actual Construction Plan:

Adhesive: Rubber based high strength bond adhesive.

cut out:
Two .75"x4' length strips blue foam
Two 1.25"x4' length Strips blue foam

Secure a .75" strips on each striking surface of core then the two 1.25" strips along the flat.

cut out:
two more 1.25"x4' strips blue foam
four 1.75" strips

Secure a 1.25" on each striking surface and two 1.75" strips on each flat.

cut out:
six more 1.75"x4' strips blue foam

Secure three 1.75" strips on each striking surface.

cut out:
2"x3" piece polycarbonate, round edges (keep core from poking through)
three 3.75"x5.25" piece foam

Secure the polycarbonate piece then three 3.75"x5.25" squares onto weapon tip.

cut out:
3.75"x5.25" open core foam (however much will add up to 1.5" open core foam)

secure open core foam onto weapon tip.

[Tiberius Claudius]

Uhhhhh.

1/2" solid fiber is definitely good, forever, out to about 44". Forever.

Maybe you're thinking of 3/8" and 1/2"?

I've got both in my garage right now and just went to measure to make sure. Definitely not 3/8" - way too whippy and only suitable for jav cores for our new lightweight rules.

1/2" solid round fiberglass rods are all I use as blues and they definitely flex out within 6 months at any length over 32" max - and that's pushing it. IME they are completely unsuitable for anything red. I've built two standard min reds on two separate, brand new, single 1/2" round cores using only blue foam and they flexed out immediately on first test. Perhaps ours are manufactured differently.

And this construction plan is a complete overbuild. It will be a monstrosity. Do what Arrakis, Forkbeard, and myself have advised you to do and talk to real life Bel vets who know what the hell they're talking about and can physically show you what is and is not needed in a build.

[Arrakis]

I won't argue that 1/2" round will flex out on a 49" red in under a year.

But I think you may have an inferior product there to what the rest of Belegarth is using, based on the lengths you're quoting. That or you're testing flex incorrectly.

[Arrakis]

Stuff

Six feet of bandpole weighs less than 40 oz for sure; my new 51" redsword is 42 oz and it outweighs my 6' miniglaive on bandpole by a half dozen ounces.

Your stabbing tip design is terrible. Did you even bother to go read the Geddon.org tutorial on stabbing tips?

Who is your cousin and why do you think he's qualified to help you design this weapon? More especially, why do you think he's MORE qualified than the several responders in this thread?

[Rasheab]

Trodaire, don't use open cell for the stabbing tip.

Tib, Edhellen uses 1/2" out to 48 inches, and 3/8" for their shorties. 3/8" is fine for short blues. 1/2" is golden for blues, and works fine for up to min. red; sure, it does flex out sooner or later, but it doesn't flex out immediately. I'm with Arrakis that you must be using inferior product.

[Trodaire]

Stuff

Who is your cousin and why do you think he's qualified to help you design this weapon? More especially, why do you think he's MORE qualified than the several responders in this thread?

He is an engineer for a company that fabricates a lot of high performance man made products like carbon fiber and plastics. I also hadn't checked the thread before posting my second comment really.

He said if I were to pay him enough he could make me a sword he would guarantee never to break down from regular usage in my lifetime and could probably simultaneously pass any tests that were necessary. Unfortunately I don't feel like paying $250 for a single weapon... It would have been cheaper a while ago but now they make people work on personal projects for friends and family on facility billing hours. So much for my hopes of him making stuff for me.

[Forkbeard]

Your uncles weapons would fail. At least the first batch. There are no materails or construction techniques that will not fail over time.
I don;t care how smart he is, or what he does for a living.
Unless he makes the weapon exactly the way we make them, they will fail.
There IS not other way to do it. There ARE NO materials that we do not use(that will work, that is).
I'm going to say this one more time, just so you get it:
Go to practice. There IS a group in Lewiston Id, very near you. GO THERE! Talk to Thrax. Don not tell him all of your stupid ideas and try to get him to tell you they are ok.
LISTEN TO WHAT HE SAYS ABOUT WEAPONS.
LOOK AT the weapons. Take a cover off(with permision, of course) and examine how the layers work.
Thrax MAY(If you are cool) invite you to a place where weapons are being made, so you can see the process first hand.
You will learn all you need to know about these things in one day. Then and only then should you begin building your own weapons for Belegarth.
FB

[Arrakis]

Yeah.... Sorry, homie, but any engineer knows that to improve upon a design, one must first undertake to study the existing state of the art to the point of expertise.

Your cousin would produce a lot of really expensive garbage that no one would ever let on an event field unless he studied our methods extensively first.

[Peregrine]

no offence to you or your uncle, you probably do not understand the amount of force we use when fighting, we swing really hard, light hit do not count. under the amount of force we use the average larp weapon will not hold up.

[Trodaire]

I handed over the materials to my friend's son Ronald. He's a long haired hippie looking young guy somewhere close to 30. He is getting really into this thing so I handed him his materials he bought for me about a week ago because I'm moving to Greenville to go to Clemson and finish my masters in business management.

I was going to build this sword for him to swing around at some people. They told him that the design was flawed because 3/4" wouldn't be durable enough and that a double core would be way too heavy. I just told him to go to the guy who said he'd help him build it though. He's been talking to some people including the thrax fellow you said I should meet. He also said something about being excited for fried chicken and violence? I don't even wanna know! I think he was convinced I wasn't doing anything at all, and he was half right hahaha.

He's kind of a meathead and doesn't have many friends in the area yet. He's like a son to me so make sure to give him a good beating and say that uncle Lonnie sends his regards.

[Forkbeard]

You did the exactly right thing.
He is talking about coming to our event this weekend. The fried chicken is what we're eating at the feast, the violence is self explanitory.
Your ideas we're bad, you were on the right track. You were just misinformed. Going and meeting Thrax and his guys and seeing Belegarth first hand is the way to get into it.
Your nephew is in good hands.
FB

[Trodaire]

You did the exactly right thing.
He is talking about coming to our event this weekend. The fried chicken is what we're eating at the feast, the violence is self explanitory.
Your ideas we're bad, you were on the right track. You were just misinformed. Going and meeting Thrax and his guys and seeing Belegarth first hand is the way to get into it.
Your nephew is in good hands.
FB

Ronald said that Thrax told him if he were to double the cores and basically make a double bit Dane axe it should be fine last Saturday. He also said that Thrax said if he chopped the single core sword down to 5' or 5.5' it should be fine as well.

When ron came over to ask if he could borrow a hacksaw or a dremmel he said he wouldn't feel comfortable hitting somebody with doubled up cores. He told me that the core felt way heavy so we did a reweigh and I must have had one end resting on something in my garage because each one actually weighs around 3 1/2 pounds. They're really rigid too. We only got around 20 degrees of flex after we attached about 60 lbs of hanging weight in the center of a 6' pole. How short do you think this thing should be cut to be safe flex wise?

I didn't have most of my tools any more so we just ended up building a pommel on both of the cores. He actually ended up building a way better pommel than I did so we stripped off mine. His looks sort of like the handle of a canoe paddle and it feels really sturdy with not much wiggle to it. Keep in mind it does still feels padded. He said that you test if a pommel is safe by whether or not it can fit into an eye socket and we built it off of that.

[Arrakis]

Hey man.

Read this: http://belegarth.com/rules.php

The bit at the end about Weapons and Armor and Shields is particularly of interest to you, I think.

Hope that helps.

[Sleeper]

Bandshoppe is by far superior and should be encouraged simply because of that fact. It will never flex out or break as far as our purposes are concerned.

No, they break very easily. I've broken two so far and I've heard of a bandshoppe spear breaking. On top of this, they are extremely rigid meaning not only can they really hurt whoever you're fighting, they can jar and potentially break your fingers if you accidently hit solid objects (like the ground or a tree).

Now, if you have the money and time for them, by all means, have at it. I happen to love them, they make super light six footer reds but sadly, they are far from unbreakable.