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 Post subject: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 12:51 am 
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So long story short, a FL-born foam-combat group is developing new safety standards. They are now requiring people cloth-cover their weapons like any other boffing org - they're being fought by people who use metallic tape to cover their weapons for the more realistic look...

Could a maestro please explain WHY cloth covers are considered safer? To my understanding, it mitigates the impact - meanwhile duct tape "slaps." But I figured I'd dig for something more scientific... maybe Arrakis can come do some math of some ****... anyway, I'll credit the argument with a quote.

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 7:51 am 
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I have 8 years experience with duct tape covered weapons.
They hurt. corners on the tape can cut people with a hard enough(Bel/Dag style) hit. They leave really bad welts. They break down easier. Dead spots happen faster and go deeper.
Duct tape is MORE EXPENSIVE that cloth.
Cloth covers are removable for closer inspection and repairs.

Most convincing, though is the hit test. Get the best duct tape covered weapon these jerks have. Get a regular ol cloth covered sword of the same length. Put them in the hands of you BEST hitter. Best body mechanics, hardest swinger. Have this worthy do some hit tests on the Pro ductape dudes. Maybe add in some arm shots and shin shots,
They will change their minds really quickly.
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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 8:56 am 
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ztv6R9F3S_8

just tossing that out there cause by god it shows a point.

Have them do the same with a duct tape weapon and a cloth covered weapon. Trust me, the cloth will feel FAR better.

Also duct tape fails quickly in wet and cold conditions, when it gets misreble out it can and will fall off weapons and hit people in a nice slapping annoying manner.


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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:33 pm 
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**** my life... I'm so glad the people who have interacted with Bel/Dag are all pro cloth covers and not spitting this **** out:

Quote:
"Part of the issue isn't that duct tape is the covering. it's what holds the sword together. I'd muchh rather use tape than DAP anyday."

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:41 pm 
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They are too much of a diva that they might get just a little dirty.

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Tue Nov 29, 2011 3:17 pm 
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Teej wrote:
**** my life... I'm so glad the people who have interacted with Bel/Dag are all pro cloth covers and not spitting this **** out:

Quote:
"Part of the issue isn't that duct tape is the covering. it's what holds the sword together. I'd muchh rather use tape than DAP anyday."

Well...****. I propose that you calmly and logically show the benefits of DAP over tape. And if they don't listen, slap them in the **** mouth.

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 7:52 am 
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You are working on bringing these wots people into Bel. They seem like cool kids with the will to fight, they just need better equipment. That change is coming hard for them.
My recomandation is to wait. This is not important now. Fighting about it will just alienate them. Wait to fight about this until next year. Have more events with these wots dudes. make them love fighting bel people and desire to go to big events. Get a groups of them up to spring war.
Once they start seeing the whole world if fighting, they will more easily see the point of changing their weapon constrution styles to our safer ones.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:22 am 
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Actually... not trying to convert them, just trying to bring them up to speed. I made it clear that I'm not after their members and I'm not trying to turn their game into mine. Their leadership after having interacted with Atlantis has had the motivation to bring their garb and equipment up to our level while preserving their general ruleset.

Imagine Bel/Dag with extremely lax weapon standards, extremely lax (most of the time, no) garb, no legal projectiles to the head but legal melee headshots, and outnumbering FL Bel/Dag probably 4:1. These people can recruit!

Anyway, in light of Atlantis making contact with them and ushering them into the Florida Foam-fighter's Association they've been trying to create a better public image for themselves and as a result have been revising their rules as well - these meetings I've been invited to sit in on and lend my .02. I never actually suggested anything other than my pet peeve (Dead don't talk). I've mostly let them drive and pointed out possible exploitation in the wording of their rules.

But this change was all them - I had no intentions to change anything I just wanted somewhere else to fight. But I support their leadership's will to improve their game. FL Bel/Dag/Wots united could EASILY field 500-person events by the end of 2012.

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:10 pm 
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Point out to them that by wrapping their foam with duct tape, especially, they are reducing the flexibility of the bulk foam by constraining surface ("skin") flexibility artificially with the fibers in the tape. Also point out that cloth covers do not remain in contact with the foam at all times, allowing the foam more room for off-axis expansion, a la Poisson's ratio. Additionally, note that duct tape is significantly heavier than a thin layer of DAP

The tape, being non-uniformly applied, also tends to crate rips in the top layer of foam as the edges pull on the foam while the foam tries to flex away from it during a hit. These defects are then disguised by the tape more than they would be by a cloth cover and the sword becomes secretly failing much more quickly and less obviously.


tl;dr: It's less safe, it hits worse, and it's less fool-proof.


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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:16 pm 
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Thank you gents, that should be all I need to support them. I appreciate it.

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 9:39 pm 
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Hello everybody,

I'm from WotS and this thread was recently posted on our Facebook group. Some discussion has happened and I was wondering if I could get your responses to it. And for the record I am Pro Cloth.

"My duct tape weapons are better than your cloth monstrosities. For one, TJ(He meant Arrakis here) just made this entire post by his first sentence. "Wrapping duct tape about foam". I don't do that. At all. I lay the tape down on the foam, one solid piece along the whole length of the blade and press it down. I have 4 sides of a sword, I use 4 strips of tape. That is all."

"Point out to them that by wrapping their foam with duct tape (wrong), especially, they are reducing the flexibility of the bulk foam by constraining surface ("skin") flexibility artificially with the fibers in the tape (wrong). Also point out that cloth covers do not remain in contact with the foam at all times (don't know what the **** this means), allowing the foam more room for off-axis expansion, a la Poisson's ratio. Additionally, note that duct tape is significantly heavier than a thin layer of DAP (has truth to it, but still wrong. my weapons are the lightest **** i have ever seen and i make only duct tape weapons, not dap anymore)." <--in this quote all parentheses are original posters.

"Matter of opinion being an unsafe weapon is an unsafe weapon. If it hurts too bad when a single strip of tape is covering it, it will hurt too bad with cloth."

"If it's just a little sting, it shouldn't be that big of a deal. We ARE hitting each other, not being amtgard and tapping people to death."

Thank you for your replies and help with this.

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:11 pm 
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Not really a big deal. "Wrong" is an insufficient rebuttal. Though if anyone does want to get drug into this I can provide you an invite to the group on facebook. I'm happy letting the guy sit back and look like an idiot.

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:41 pm 
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LOL.

Sorry Freshman Mechanics was too hard for this guy.

Duct tape has bidirectional fibers. DERP.


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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 11:02 pm 
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Just fight with 'em and lay skimming shots on their exposed arms. Make the tape burn.

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:40 am 
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doesnt having a cloth cover allowed the air to escape the foam so it compresses for a softer hit or something like that, while having tape on it prevent the air in the foam to escape thus making it stiff and harder hit? that's how i always understood it

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:15 am 
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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:20 am 
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Argent wrote:
doesnt having a cloth cover allowed the air to escape the foam so it compresses for a softer hit or something like that, while having tape on it prevent the air in the foam to escape thus making it stiff and harder hit? that's how i always understood it



This is a common misconception, closed cell foam is just that closed cell. Air cannot and will not escape from closed cells unless those cells burst, Bursting cells is foam break down. Foam is soft because the cells misform and allow the air to move inside itself. thus it needs to be able to move willingly. What Arrakis is saying about tape constricting the foam means that the side of the foam cant expand and change shape under impact, thus the tape is the structure that is making foam unable to compress.

Think of it like this, Put a balloon inside a sock, it can still change shape because the cloth of the sock allows it to, hell put the balloon inside of a stiff fabric even. Because the fabric is fluid in motion it will allow the balloon to be distorted. Now wrap a balloon inside of duct tape. Try and compress that balloon, it will have much less motion to the balloon. Foam works the same way.

Open cell(arrow heads) need to allow air to escape to compress.


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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:24 am 
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ahh that makes sense, thank you for explaining that Varadin

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 Post subject: Re: The purpose of cloth covers.
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 9:31 am 
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I'll jump in on it as well, Lance R Butler on FB


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