Failing weapons check because of tape

[jollybane]

Okay i know the rules say not to have an excessive amount of tape on the blade but how much would i actually have to have for my weapon to fail. I use quite a lot in strips but it at most covers 1/5 of my striking surfaces would this fail if not how much would i have to have for my weapon to fail/ do they event check for excessive tape at events.

[varadin]

Does your weapon hurt? then it fails.
Does it hit nicely even with that tape? then it passes.

I will say if you are doing strips of tape on your weapon you are shortening the life whereever tape ends on foam it will cause a tear and it will break down the sword faster. Either go with a gental overall tape or no tape.

[Forkbeard]

I use NO tape at all on my weapons. They last as long or longer than anyone elses.
Stop using tape and build better ****.
I typically judge a weapon to have too much tape on it is it has more the half the striking surface covered in tape under the cloth cover. If the weapon passes hit testing, we generally allow it at practice. We explain whats wrong with it and make sure the person makes their next weapon right, though.
FB

[Tails]

I use NO tape at all on my weapons. They last as long or longer than anyone elses.
We explain whats wrong with it and make sure the person makes their next weapon right, though.
FB

So what are people trying to accomplish with weapons that use tape, and what should they be doing differently to get the same effect? Other than the obvious "Don't use tape"

[Grey]

Generally, the only reason I use tape on a striking surface is to construct a "cheater beater"

Primarily with flail heads.

[Atman]

Tape is sometimes used to make quick, sloppy repairs. I see it a lot with newer foamsmiths that don't use their DAP correctly and try to fix their failing glue job with tape. Generally the use of tape is the result of sloppy work or an inherently flawed design.

[jollybane]

These are my very first weapons im making guys im not very worried about durability im more worried about going to an event 10 hrs away and having all my weapons fail. And no they don't hurt ive been hit full force with all of them and there is no pain.

[Forkbeard]

You should always plan on your weapons failing and have a back up plan. I've been doing this literally for **** ever and my **** still fails in the middle of events.
FB

[randy]

I put tape on the blade to prevent foam from tearing. 1 layer of the thinnest packing tape I can find.

Really, considering how most of us fight with the top 6" of the weapons that would be all you really need to cover, but I agree with Varadin, you might aswell cover the entire weapon with tape to prevent the weak spots.

Also, torque wrapping a weapon to make a cheater beater is not nearly as effective as using the proper foam and weight ratio. I have had more torque wrapped weapons failed because of the sting, than 4# flats fail because of the deep tissue bruising people don't realize they cause till hours later.

[Remdawg Killionaire]

I have had more torque wrapped weapons failed because of the sting, than 4# flats fail because of the deep tissue bruising people don't realize they cause till hours later.

I like everything about this sentance.

[Atman]

The foam on any *reasonably* well built weapon should not tear from lack of tape. Any time a piece of tape ends on a striking surface near the top end of the weapon it WILL tear at the edge of the tape. Covering the last 6" of a sword will pretty much guarantee early failure from tearing if not from hit testing.
Though I have seen completely tape-covered weapons pass, they generally do not use "normal" construction methods and I would not recommend trying it on your first weapons.

[Rasheab]

I use NO tape at all on my weapons. They last as long or longer than anyone elses.

Fork, how do you construct stabbing tips? (Specifically so the foam doesn't shear at the edge where the stab tip is attached to the blade.)

Same question for you, Atman.

[Tyrieal Isenguard]

I usually put a piece of tape on the blade edge to keep armor from cutting it. Works pretty well.

[Forkbeard]

Putting tape of your blade edge MAKES it get cuts from armor. Arrakis can explain surface tension better than me, though.
For my stab tips I use 1/4 eva foam with a sticky layer on one side. It is stronger than tap and has the same surface tension as the rest of the blade.
Finnally, do not fight with the top 6" of your blade." This is knows ar TIP FIGHTING and is stupid and wrong becasue it wears out your weapons prematurely and is generally a lame way to fight that leads to ALOT of near misses and light, grazing shots. Despite what Evuil Sandy says, most of us DO NOT fight like this. He and his Role Models do, but they are a minority.
FB

[randy]

Fork,

Your wrong. Even in the SCA the average portion of the striking surface is the top 4-6" of the blade. This is because it provides the best percussive damage. If you hit with the top 2" you wont be able to obtain the force required for someone to take the shot the term in the SCA is "tippy", and if you hit any lower than about 6" you loose a large amount of power and you tend to push your opponent rather than strike him.

So 4-6" is the best striking surface to transfer as much force into your opponent. In SCA, BEL, Amtgard, DAG, Darkon, and live steel. And yes I have fought in them all.

As for the tape, your wrong again. Adding tape prevents shearing, especially when using higher density foams such as MC. I don't have a lot of experience with camp pad flat blades, but I have made hundreds of MC sticks, flat and round. The only ones I have had shear are the ones Reverend took to Chaos last year, and we didn't protect the striking edge with tape.

[Forkbeard]

If you hit like a *, you don't have enough power to hit with the middle of your blade.
I've been using eva and mc foams for years and years.
I'm just givingadvice based on my experience. As a BELEGARTH fighter. Your giving your advice based on your experience. As a fighter from a light contact game who has his weapon fail at our events.
YMMV
fb

[Arrakis]

Putting tape of your blade edge MAKES it get cuts from armor. Arrakis can explain surface tension better than me, though.
For my stab tips I use 1/4 eva foam with a sticky layer on one side. It is stronger than tap and has the same surface tension as the rest of the blade.
Finnally, do not fight with the top 6" of your blade." This is knows ar TIP FIGHTING and is stupid and wrong becasue it wears out your weapons prematurely and is generally a lame way to fight that leads to ALOT of near misses and light, grazing shots. Despite what Evuil Sandy says, most of us DO NOT fight like this. He and his Role Models do, but they are a minority.
FB

Not in this case, Forkbeard, as Tyrieal and Randy have the right of this. A layer of the correct tape properly applied reduces isolated trauma to your blade edge from armor edges and the like. You're basically uniformly increasing the surface tension of the blade foam to prevent tears and since the tape covers the whole striking area uniformly, it doesn't create discontinuities in the surface tension (what leads to tears in partially-taped blades).

Also, intentionally striking with the middle third of a sword blade is patently ludicrous, technically speaking. Have you done any test cutting with sharps, Forkbead?

[Forkbeard]

I learned to hit lower on the blade to keep my swords from tipping out.
I fight with a 22 in sword at practice and a 36in sword at events.
Since we dont actually cut people, cut test don't really apply in foam fighting. If they did, draw cuts would count.
Also, I haven't ever seen a striking surface that was taped that didn't have a bunch of inpact tears in the tape extending down into the foam. Except at light contact games where people never hit hard. I could be wrong, I don't go around checking EVERY sword. But I do see hundreds of sword a year. Tape makes rips in foam. I'd be very interested in tape that does not do this.
FB

[Arrakis]

Check this out, Fork: http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d124/ ... 232825.jpg

The middle sword's blade is a barley box on 1/2 sq. covered in three layers of 1/2" 2# MC. After the stabbing tip was affixed, the blade's striking edge was covered in one continuous layer of non-stretched strapping tape that was pressed on from the bottom of one side of the blade to the other. It was applied so that in resting position the tape is slightly slack on the surface of the foam; it wrinkles a bit. That gives it plenty of room to deform around an impact while still using the fiberglass fibers in the tape to prevent rips and tears into the soft, skin-less MC foam.

It hits beautifully, extra especially so considering that it weighs 42 oz at 50". I've only fought with it four times so far, but it's holding up quite well.

[Remdawg Killionaire]

Those look legit.
You really need to clean your workspace, bro.

[Arrakis]

Those look legit.
You really need to clean your workspace, bro.

lol

That is clean.

You should have seen it before I * it.

[Remdawg Killionaire]

So, Barley-box, looks like two layers of grey foam then a layer of white MC foam on the outer-layer. I've been wondering if I should try taping some weapons. Giggles left his Barley-bat at my place and it's pretty heavily covered in tape. Doesn't change the way it hits in any way, either. But I've been cut by some fun-noodle covered in clear plastic tape on kitespar that left gashes in my arms and hands because the tape bunched up and formed little tents/creases that were just evil.

I like the middle one, it looks like you incorporated the stabbing tip into the whole of the blade a lot more, and as much as I love having stabbing tips that don't take off half of the sword tip when they rip off, I'm still always looking for a way to better make my swords (specifically reds) and especially the stabbing tips more durable.

I think the biggest contributing factor to my OCD-akin cleanliness is from years of working in a kitchen where it doesn't necessarily mean you need to be awesome at cooking; you have to be able to cover your mistakes and work clean.

Every time I leave something messy I have my mentor chef in the back of my head calling me a hoser and burning me with hot-knives to remind me to clean up my station lololololol

I miss that ol' *.

[Arrakis]

So, Barley-box, looks like two layers of grey foam then a layer of white MC foam on the outer-layer. I've been wondering if I should try taping some weapons. Giggles left his Barley-bat at my place and it's pretty heavily covered in tape. Doesn't change the way it hits in any way, either. But I've been cut by some fun-noodle covered in clear plastic tape on kitespar that left gashes in my arms and hands because the tape bunched up and formed little tents/creases that were just evil.

I like the middle one, it looks like you incorporated the stabbing tip into the whole of the blade a lot more, and as much as I love having stabbing tips that don't take off half of the sword tip when they rip off, I'm still always looking for a way to better make my swords (specifically reds) and especially the stabbing tips more durable.

I think the biggest contributing factor to my OCD-akin cleanliness is from years of working in a kitchen where it doesn't necessarily mean you need to be awesome at cooking; you have to be able to cover your mistakes and work clean.

Every time I leave something messy I have my mentor chef in the back of my head calling me a hoser and burning me with hot-knives to remind me to clean up my station lololololol

I miss that ol' *.

The one on the left? Yeah, barley box, 1" of 2# MC in 1/2" layers, (foamfactory), then a layer of 1/4" 2# PE I got form Edhellen back when they were Edhellen (2009?). I didn't want to have to tape that one to get it to hit right and not rip because it was for a guy who doesn't really know about taping and this was my first experiment with this particular brand's MC and I was unsure if the taping would require adjustment. It didn't, but still. Using the 1/4" PE instead of another 1/2" of MC and tape let me make the blade thinner on that shorter, lighter sword.

[randy]

But I've been cut by some fun-noodle covered in clear plastic tape on kitespar that left gashes in my arms and hands because the tape bunched up and formed little tents/creases that were just evil.

That's why I don't like trouser socks and people who don't know how to tape properly. Combine that with cold weather and you get dozens of little cuts everywhere. Better than duct tape though.

[Laoric]

Forkbeard is unbelievably wrong in pretty much everything he's said in this thread.

I have swords that are covered in tape, top to bottom, that are older than he's been playing Belegarth and they've never been rebuilt. You can ask around, but I don't hit softly and I fight a LOT.

As to hitting with the middle of the blade, if you're relying on retard strength to generate power rather than body mechanics, then yeah, the middle will hit hard. Otherwise you can't generate the same level of torque from the middle. About 4" down from the tip is a pretty common spot to have wear out in most swords I've seen.

[Sir Par]

Laoric I wouldn't say they've been around longer than Fork, but I will back you on where the majority of foam fighters hit with their weapon. I've run weapons check at Chaos the last two years, have helped at Geddon and Equinox, and done weapons check at a dozen or so smaller regional events in the last two years and almost ALL weapons that fail do so because the top 6" of the blade is worn out. Because that is where people hit.

[Scopus]

I only use tape in one part of my blade. I carpet tape the last blade layer on. If I develop a tear in the blade, it's just a quick repair.

[Forkbeard]

Yeah, I have noooo idea what 'm talking about. My statements aren't based on any experience. I just started fighting yesterday and make **** up.
In fact, I'm just giving out bad advice so that people will make swords that fail.
FB

[Remdawg Killionaire]

Forkbeard is unbelievably wrong in pretty much everything he's said in this thread.

I have swords that are covered in tape, top to bottom, that are older than he's been playing Belegarth and they've never been rebuilt. You can ask around, but I don't hit softly and I fight a LOT.

I've asked around; who are you? No one knows you.
Man, I use the middle of the blade just as much as the tip; I fight in close because I'm a scrapper. I can get force on it via body mechanics learned in martial arts at a young age.

[Remdawg Killionaire]

I only use tape in one part of my blade. I carpet tape the last blade layer on. If I develop a tear in the blade, it's just a quick repair.

That's pretty slick, I do that with my stabbing-tips and was gonna do a repair like that in the same way on a bhak-tech blade I have; the last layer was EVA and it had taken a couple bites out of the foam on armor or shields or fingers; anyway I had the same thought but I ended up just slapping a reblade kit ala Forged Foam (whut whut!) after around five different rebuilds.
I also heard from Bhakdar about open-cell being covered in the fiberglass-infused strapping tape; this allowed it to hit solid enough without slapping, as well as still having the cushioned blows of open-cell.
I don't mind the idea of tape on weapon's striking surface all that much, except when it's done poorly and while I don't mind scratches and cuts that much, I feel that it's pretty much proving you're an *. I think the potential structural integrity and other benefits outweighs the cons, personally.

[Laoric]

Forkbeard is unbelievably wrong in pretty much everything he's said in this thread.

I have swords that are covered in tape, top to bottom, that are older than he's been playing Belegarth and they've never been rebuilt. You can ask around, but I don't hit softly and I fight a LOT.

I've asked around; who are you? No one knows you.
Man, I use the middle of the blade just as much as the tip; I fight in close because I'm a scrapper. I can get force on it via body mechanics learned in martial arts at a young age.

I'm new to Bel, but not new to fighting, nor to solid construction.

[randy]

I've asked around; who are you? No one knows you.

Laoric is an old school fighter from back in the days. He swings a heavy pipe.

Also, when your talking about using body mechanics to throw a shot up close, it is possible to land with sufficient force. MOST fighters do not fight that close because they don't understand the fundamentals. AND I promise if you were to throw those same shots with the top 4-6" rather than lower, you would find they land much harder, even up close like.

[Dyn]

Laoric, if you've really been fighting with those weapons, thats not good. I'm willing to bet money that if you took the tape off, there'd be no glue beneath your weapon.

This is the problem I have with tape - including when I did some myself. It holds up longer, but you don't notice when it starts to fail. I recently looked inside a barley bat with hurricane tape, and none of the glue was attached at all. And this is from one of the best foamsmiths out there.
Point being no weapon lasts that long. Hell, I doubt most cores would last that long.


My personal view is stick to the BoW - use minimal tape.

[Forkbeard]

I know I shouldn't, but I can't help it.
He's an old school Amtgard fighter. Amtgard is different than what we do.
Funny, now you say one CAN hit with thecenter of the blade with proper mechanics and knowing the fundamentals. Why is it imposible to you that I could know the proper mechanics and fundamentals? Becasue i do, thats how I do the stuff I do.

FB

[Forkbeard]

I mean, when you spend 80% of your time fighting with a 22" sword with a stb tip, you fight so close in that you are actually bumping chests with your opponent some times.
I find that it is much easier to keep people from being able to swing by simply stepping in real close and guarding against the wrap shot. Most people are such wrap shot junkies that it's about the most predictable thing there is.
FB

[X of Grayscale]

How hard is it to adjust from the 22 to the 36? This sounds like a good idea, and it seems like a crazy jump though. I like it.


As with the whole Which part of the sword thing.. for me it just depends on who im fighting. I dont care what part of the sword i hit with i dont know why its a big deal? i might be missing something either way, part of the sword is wearing down. But yeah some people i like keeping distance others i like getting up in their face, also depends on what im using hence why i like the 22/36 idea

[Forkbeard]

I never notice any adjustment of my fighting when using longer weapons. It simply allows me the extra reach I don't really need. Which makes me hit everything I swing at.
Which is awesome.
FB

[NessiePop]

'S what I do. My favorite practice weapon is a 31" flat on 3/4 PVC (yes, i know), but my event stick is a 36" stock Edhellen. The only change when switching is that with the event stick, there are more pleasant surprises. And, FWIW, I'm a huge proponent of fighting from what I call "kissing distance".

[Tails]

FWIW

FWIW??

[Slagar]

"For what it's worth". Noob. :-p

[Tails]

WWJDIHWOICD

[Mikhail]

WWJDIHWOICD

What Would Jesus Do If He Was On Insane Crack Dope?

[Tails]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDsIcQ-l23A[/youtube]