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 Post subject: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:35 am 
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Okay, I've searched and searched and have yet to find a clear answer. Are modular arrowheads allowed? I've read a lot that they aren't allowed if they aren't fixed with a perpendicular penny attached to the top of the arrow, but if they have that are they allowed.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tc7r4lBJuc

I was thinking using a method almost identical to this. Would that be against the rules, it follows all of them as far as I can tell, I just wanted a second opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 6:49 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 7:50 am 
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Yes, that makes me happy. As a starving college student modular arrow heads really help me save money.


Thanks,
Scott


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 02, 2012 12:24 pm 
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they are now.

When did they actually say you could? I mean, I'm all for it, just curious.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Basically there isn't anything in the rules that forbids a properly built modular arrow that can pass weapons check. There may be in the future, but unless you have a crystal ball.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 05, 2012 2:49 am 
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Last edited by Not Relevant on Sun Nov 10, 2013 9:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:08 pm 
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Patchiz of Clew wrote:
watch the wobble by checking your arrows regularly more than straight shaft builds anyway.. simple suggestion.


If you build them correctly there should zero diference in wobble between the modular and non-modular at any point in their lifespan.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:43 pm 
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I wanted to see if these modular arrow heads pass.


I have a few Bel players taking a look at them. The heads can talk a real pounding and offer awesome resistance to tearing. Duel colors are pretty trick too.

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Last edited by Artenen on Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 5:06 pm 
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I am going to be testing these out tomarrow guys. They are really promising even for a prototype. They will also be coming to spring wars.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:51 pm 
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Ixous wrote:
I am going to be testing these out tomarrow guys. They are really promising even for a prototype. They will also be coming to spring wars.


Looking forward to seeing how they do, they look awesome.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:02 am 
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Let's see some stats. How deep is the padding on over the arrow tip? What's the stop like? What's the foam density/durometer?


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:27 am 
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I'm curious how they are attached to the shaft.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:26 am 
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Orokusan wrote:
I'm curious how they are attached to the shaft.

If I read the webpage correctly, they're threaded like a normal arrow head would be.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 2:13 pm 
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Glass wrote:
Orokusan wrote:
I'm curious how they are attached to the shaft.

If I read the webpage correctly, they're threaded like a normal arrow head would be.

That's scary.

When I used to be able to do regular archery, I was semi-frequently re-tightening the field points on my carbon arrows. Field points shouldn't have any leverage to be able to unscrew, but some of them were starting to anyway.

These things would be far more liable to unscrew without the user realizing it than my field points were. Add in the fact that you're shooting these things at people and full-contact boffer fighting is nearly always in the heat of the moment, and you have a serious problem.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:04 pm 
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Not a fan of threaded heads to be honest.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Mar 25, 2012 11:00 pm 
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Black Cat wrote:
Glass wrote:
Orokusan wrote:
I'm curious how they are attached to the shaft.

If I read the webpage correctly, they're threaded like a normal arrow head would be.

That's scary.

When I used to be able to do regular archery, I was semi-frequently re-tightening the field points on my carbon arrows. Field points shouldn't have any leverage to be able to unscrew, but some of them were starting to anyway.

These things would be far more liable to unscrew without the user realizing it than my field points were. Add in the fact that you're shooting these things at people and full-contact boffer fighting is nearly always in the heat of the moment, and you have a serious problem.


I've seen arrows like this before. They're threaded first, but then still taped down like normal arrows. I've seen unthreaded modular arrows taped properly to a shaft not be able to move at all, so if it was threaded, and then taped like a normal arrow, I don't see there being an issue.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 6:53 am 
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Yeah, threaded, * on heads are ****. They always fall off.
You MUST tape them on just like a normal arrow.
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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 9:12 am 
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I'll be sure to suggest tape and thread lock with the instruction sheets just to be safe.

I have been making the formed heads that are not modular and they work just as well. I just made threaded ones as they were requested. After hundreds of tests, I haven't had any come off. I even trained my labs to retrieve the arrows biting the heads to do so and they are holding up to that even.

We did move the core back so you have the max amount of padding up front and we also added core spines to prevent the core from breaking lose (spinning) inside the foam. I'll be sure to add the pictures to the listings and descriptions this week.

I also was toying with the idea of making formed foam weapons specifically for boffer use since the foam holds up to abuse so well. Thinking it would be cool to have massive boffers with cool designs, ruins, colors for full contact sports use.

I guess I'll also add the solid arrows to the mix too. Thank you all for your suggestions and if you think of something you would like to have made for the field, let me know.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:14 am 
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Most concerned about their hit. Seeing as in bel, arrows have to pass headshots, I'm wondering how they compare to "standard" arrows, however you individually want to define that (I would say forged foam arrows would be most widely accepted as standard) have you compared your arrows to theirs?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 12:48 pm 
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I wouldn't want to make anything but headshot approved arrows. The foam on the tip will now be softer. Core is redesigned and I'll post pics of everything here when done tomorrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:35 pm 
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Also, on your link there are two different arrow heads, priced differently, but from all the information the website exactly the same. I'm assuming something other than the color of the base is the difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:52 pm 
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Artenen wrote:
Duel colors are pretty trick too.

Duel colors wouldn't matter for us because we would still have to put a cloth cover on it.

Just sayin'...

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Mar 26, 2012 11:57 pm 
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Kage wrote:
Artenen wrote:
Duel colors are pretty trick too.

Duel colors wouldn't matter for us because we would still have to put a cloth cover on it.

Just sayin'...

QFT

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:03 am 
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Im shooting a detailed video on everything for the product listing.

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Last edited by Artenen on Sat Dec 08, 2012 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 7:06 am 
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Artenen wrote:
Im shooting a detailed video on everything for the product listing.


Best idea ever.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:23 am 
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Don't assume we all use the same foam, man. That is a terrible mistake.
Also, modular arrows are awesome and now legal, true, but do not think that we will change ANY rules for your products. They need to conform to US no matter how good you think they work. We require cloth covers, it does not matter in any way how cool you make your's, they still need a cover.
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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:32 am 
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Forkbeard wrote:
Don't assume we all use the same foam, man. That is a terrible mistake.
Also, modular arrows are awesome and now legal, true, but do not think that we will change ANY rules for your products. They need to conform to US no matter how good you think they work. We require cloth covers, it does not matter in any way how cool you make your's, they still need a cover.
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Excessively preemptively aggressive, dude.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2012 9:59 am 
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No worries guys. Just want to make the best products that folks can use. Im not asking anyone to change anything. I enjoy making foam products and playing this game, thats pretty much it. Just want to help out and keep the sport growing.

Thanks for letting me be a proactive part of Belegarth!

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:41 pm 
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The rule change before that everyone assumes made modular arrows legal didn't explicitly do that... it just added some other options for adding the penny to the arrow. The metal thing still has to be secured to the end of the shaft, which by most of the modular designs I've seen could still make them illegal.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:03 pm 
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So what does "secure" mean and how are we going to ensure that's the case with every arrow?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:07 pm 
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Usually it means glued directly to the end of the shaft.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 11:12 pm 
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So by that definition pretty much every mod shaft out there at this point as gluing the penny to the shaft defeats the purpose of removing the head easily.
*EDIT* Unless the mod shaft is built around the penny blunt. Which could be done I guess but most I've seen are based on the shaft itself.

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Last edited by Orokusan on Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:38 am 
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:idea:


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:39 am 
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Ixous wrote:
I am going to be testing these out tomarrow guys. They are really promising even for a prototype. They will also be coming to spring wars.

Please tell how the testing went.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:52 am 
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Testing went really well I'll let Ixous fill in the details...

Our core fins are a semi pliable high strength plastic. When you thread the core to the shaft the fins grab the shaft and lock it in. This constant pressure keeps the shaft from coming lose.

I did shoot the video on how this works but haven't' had time to edit it yet.

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Last edited by Artenen on Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:16 am 
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Alright folks. These arrows are really well built. I would need approval from the rest of the community, but I can see these being the next big thing in modular arrows. I will have some for inspection at Spring Wars and Geddon. If you have any questions feel free to PM me.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:08 am 
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Yes Oroku, which is why, by the book of war, modular arrows are illegal and usually fail at chaos wars.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 10:30 am 
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Good to know. Do they fail at our other National Event for the same reason?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 02, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Sorcia seems to think Modular arrows are legal now.
She says Xooyan and Lady Grey are all about this new wording making modulars ok.
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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 8:49 am 
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Oroku, actually by our bylaws they should fail at any inter-realm event. They would only be ok at practice for playtest reasons.

Fork, I have no idea why they would think that. The rule change still has secured at the end of the shaft in it. Still making modulars illegal.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:07 am 
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Sir Par wrote:
Oroku, actually by our bylaws they should fail at any inter-realm event. They would only be ok at practice for playtest reasons.

Fork, I have no idea why they would think that. The rule change still has secured at the end of the shaft in it. Still making modulars illegal.


Well I mean the technicality in the word secured I feel is where people get confused. I mean, if I have the penny secured tightly to something that is secured to the shaft of the arrow in a fashion in which the penny is still on the end of the shaft as well, I feel that penny is in fact secured to the end of the shaft, seeing as the penny won't come off of the arrow shaft any more readily than any other arrow without a knife.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 11:19 am 
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Unit: Western Uruk Hai
Favorite Fighting Styles: Just the Tip
I do not know anyone who glues the penny on to the arrow. I certainly have never done that. I tape the penny, like Orion and Xooyan taught me years and years ago.
Modular arrow heads are taped on. You can not get one off without either 5 minutes of peeling tape OR a razor blade, just like a solid arrow.
I say "secured to the shaft" means taped to the shaft.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 12:23 pm 
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I think you guys are argueing over wording issues when while getting away from the basics of the rules. The rule is about safety.

The fact is a modular head that is on right is safe, Argueing over a rules wording when the game is about safety is stupid and rules lawyering.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:29 pm 
Underling
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Varadin wrote:
I think you guys are argueing over wording issues when while getting away from the basics of the rules. The rule is about safety.

The fact is a modular head that is on right is safe, Argueing over a rules wording when the game is about safety is stupid and rules lawyering.

I'm not trying to rules lawyer on this one, I'm just trying to understand why someone would say they weren't legal? As I mentioned before and Forkbeard echoed, a properly made modular arrow is practically as likely to come off the shaft as a normal arrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 1:37 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 4:24 pm 
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Modular arrow were used at every event last year in this area. From Highlands opener on.
EVERY event I was at I saw them. I know this for a fact, though I will not name names.
One person was honest about it at chaos and was kicked off the field for the day. Since I told him it was ok I grounded myself along with him. But He's not the only one wh has them and gets them passed at events here.
They are outright accpted and legal at Yestare and Sam Hain.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:25 pm 
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I don't think its the word secured that is tying people up. Its the "To the end of the shaft" that most people object to. The metal blunt must be secure to the end of the shaft, not secured to the thing that is secured to the end of the shaft. I'm not arguing that they're unsafe, just that the current rules won't allow them to be legal. I personally don't like the idea of an arrowhead that can be removed, but made correctly I suppose they could be safe. But unfortunately we have to follow the rules as written.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:35 pm 
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So NOW were following the rules as written.
Not when we pick out hats.
Or garb
Or sunglasses.
Or any other saftey gear.
NOW it "rules as written".
Riiiiiiight.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 7:42 pm 
Underling
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Sir Par wrote:
I don't think its the word secured that is tying people up. Its the "To the end of the shaft" that most people object to. The metal blunt must be secure to the end of the shaft, not secured to the thing that is secured to the end of the shaft. I'm not arguing that they're unsafe, just that the current rules won't allow them to be legal. I personally don't like the idea of an arrowhead that can be removed, but made correctly I suppose they could be safe. But unfortunately we have to follow the rules as written.

Well technically the penny blunt is secured to a wound piece of tape, which is secured to the shaft, by that logic, wouldn't normal arrows fail too?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 9:52 pm 
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Yes, they would.
Unless you can just pick and choose what you want words to mean. Like with the rest of the rules.
FB

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