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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 03, 2012 10:57 pm 
Backstabber
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Sorry there Par I'm going to have to rules lawyer you here. The rule says:
Quote:
1.4.8.6. All arrows must contain a perpendicular penny secured at the end of the shaft.


"AT" is a whole lot different then "to". It leaves the method that the penny blunt is secured open to variation. If one variation uses duct tape directly to the shaft, or another attaches the bunt to an overshaft via the same type of duct tape buildup which is then also secured to the shaft just as securely guess what? The Penny is resting exactly in the same place, AT the end of the shaft.

Case closed.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 5:56 am 
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The whole point of the rules change was to make modular arrows legal, and now you're trying to say they aren't?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 6:46 am 
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Yes, he IS.
Because he doesn't like them.
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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:08 am 
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Fitz, you win at Lawyer ball today. Great Job.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:12 am 
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Par, I would reiterate as Fitz pointed out, the rules state that the penny or metal blunt must be secured "at" the end of the shaft. I disagree with how you're interpreting the rule.

1.4.8.6. All arrows must contain a perpendicular penny or larger equivalent metal blunt secured at the end of the shaft. The larger blunt equivalent must be made from either copper, aluminum, or a cu/al/ni alloy.

If the rules stated that it be secured "to" the shaft, then that would also invalidate the Edhellen/Forged Foam arrowheads that are so prevalent in Belegarth; the penny is in no way secured TO the shaft, just attached to tape built up around the arrow shaft.

Image

This would also mean that Barley's modular construction would technically be the only legal type of arrowhead because he uses a metal disk welded to a * to actually attach the blunt TO the shaft.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:28 am 
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Yes, he IS.
Because he doesn't like them.
Your "fearless" leader.
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Seriously Fork, this whole personal attack thing is getting old.

Cyric, How would this be any different that they way the rules were written before? Modulars NEVER CAME UP in the discussion about changing the materials, so I doubt that the whole point of the rules change. Don't believe me, go back and look at it. I promise if this were the whole point, my realm probably would have voted differently. Not saying it wouldn't have passed, just that it would have changed some things. This is the first step, allowing for different materials at the end of the shaft allows for more flexibility in how people build the modular casing. The main reason modulars were failed out here by the people who failed there wasn't for the penny, it was for how the modular heads are secured, which hasn't changed.

Fitz, If you want to get rules-lawyery I can come back and argue where its secured AT (meaning where the securing takes place). If its not secured AT the end of the shaft it fails. Our rules are barely different from the way they were before. The only thing that has changed is now I can use a penny sized piece of airplane Aluminum instead of a penny, or if I'm desperate can throw a nickle on there. It doesn't, however explicitly allow for a modular casing containing those materials to be used in lieu of a blunt secured to the end of the arrrow.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:32 am 
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Kyrian, you make a decent point. I usually use a dab of hot glue with my tape to hold the penny down when I make them, but I haven't always done that.

And my interpretation of the rules might be wrong, its happened before. I still think we need to add another section before they're explicitly allowed, and I think that they could still be justly failed by the rules as written.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 7:36 am 
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Yes, it does.
And it WAS the whole point of the rule change. If "your realm" didn't realize that they should look into getting new rep's on WC who are in the know and can read between the lines. The issue was deliberatly no torn apart and argued over so that people would just vote for it. Clever, no?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:00 am 
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I would just like people to know that when Kyrian voices facts/opinoins on this thread, he is speaking for me as well. We have both been advocates of the modular arrow head design that Barley made. We were there for all of the testing on the design. We were both involved in bringing them to Chaos. In fact, we still have the kit that Barley gave us to show arrow checkers the inner workings of the arrows. It has been discussed by a majority of the most respected and most prolific arrow makers in Belegarth and they have all agreed.

Par, I am not saying that you aren't a good arrow smith, but I am saying that there are people who have been working on the arrow technology for a dozen years now. There was a disagreement over modular arrows a few years back which led to the rule change Kyrian quoted above. You may not have realized that but it is the truth and was never meant to be a sneaky way to get modular arrows to pass. They really have been around for many years but are just now getting discussed ad nauseum due to the popular demand for them. They are safe, and when secured by tape to the shaft in some fashion do not unthread. I do not think there is a problem in the wording either, just the misinterpretation therein.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:11 am 
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3 years and counting at practices, hundreds of face shots, probibly thousands. never a problem.

secured AT the end of the shaft is so clear that to muddy it is silly. take an arrow shaft, new, unassembled. hold the nock in one hand, hold the rest of the arrow in the other, now show me the end? yep that where it attaches at, then they put tape on the super structure to make sure it cannot unscreww with anything resembling normal game force. can you unscrew it, sure with 5 minutes and a good knife, but you show me an old arrow i cant get into with 5 minutes and a knife. not to mention that the blunt is larger, spreading the force resulting in less chance of failure.

i was there for the tests, i watched as the test arrow was shot countless times into the brick wall with no padding other than 4lbs closed cell. this test so far surpasses anyhting the old tech could endure.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:34 pm 
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Glass wrote:
Also, on your link there are two different arrow heads, priced differently, but from all the information the website exactly the same. I'm assuming something other than the color of the base is the difference.


The 1 part foam heads were taken off.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2012 12:41 pm 
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And our penny is encased in the core. It can't move or break through.

Image

The top 3" of foam is 3lb open cell. The bottom is 10lb for sturdiness.

Live Action Weapons is giving away heads monthly to their followers too on facebook. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Live-Act ... 4998883554

With all the orders of these things, I haven't been able to get the video done but I will for sure soon.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:39 am 
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Artenen wrote:
And our penny is encased in the core. It can't move or break through.

Image

The top 3" of foam is 3lb open cell. The bottom is 10lb for sturdiness.

Live Action Weapons is giving away heads monthly to their followers too on facebook. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Live-Act ... 4998883554

With all the orders of these things, I haven't been able to get the video done but I will for sure soon.


LoL Owned.
Also, you cannot enforce the penny rule without destroying someones arrows. Kind of a silly argument to be having.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 9:42 am 
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Artenen wrote:

Image



That's really cool, what is the material that the penny is encased in?


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 4:49 pm 
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A type of resin.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:51 pm 
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A type of resin.

Does that mean we can take bug out of it and recreate dinosaurs!? o.O Want!

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:55 pm 
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Glass wrote:
Ixous wrote:
A type of resin.

Does that mean we can take bug out of it and recreate dinosaurs!? o.O Want!


ooo that would make for some cool artifacts for other games... good idea!

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 9:00 am 
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High speed core test - Take a compound bow at point blank and fire an arrow tip without foam straight into concrete. The results are in... our cores, even without foam do not break. Arrow shaft on the other hand... not so lucky lol. Oh, and we filmed this in high speed as part of our arrow video we are making so you can see the action.

Image

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Last edited by Artenen on Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 10:12 am 
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That is actually the only problem I could think of when I saw the resin. Impressive stuff.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 11:56 am 
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Artenen wrote:
http://www.larpcraft.com/forums/index.php?attachments/img_7639web-jpg.243/


Please fix your image.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:12 pm 
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Fixed.

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Last edited by Artenen on Thu Apr 12, 2012 4:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Arrow sock for cloth cover would be easy to do. I'm excited to see how play testing it turns out.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 11, 2012 4:29 pm 
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Not to be super picky, but you've mentioned a lot of film clips, when is that going to be available? I don't think anyone here is gonna care if it's not edited with music n' crap.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 6:54 am 
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I do not like your arrow after seeing the inside. Your are pouring this foam, no? I really looks like it from the random distribution and air pockets betwee the colors. Those inconsistancies are exactly the kind of thing that makes casting arrows a dumb idea. It's also the reason we require the labor intensive method of construction we do. When a person meticulously applies every peice of tape and foam precisely, the arrow turns out reliable. With you method, you could easliy have an arrow with an air bubble insie that casues it to fail catistophically at a random time in the furture and you would never know it.
Unless you x-ray each arrow.
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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:31 am 
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You haven't like these arrows from the start so why would you start now lol.

The arrows are each tested and we have strict control over the foam air pockets. The only way the arrow tips would have big air pockets is if the foam formula would not be right, this would then not skin right and the foam shrinks and is unusable.

As you can see i have nothing to hide and have showed you every side of these arrows. They are safe and tested by many. The video will be out this week yet demonstrating this. If you dont think they are for you it's ok... this stuff is expensive to make but lasts longer than our hand made arrow, fly better and are safer.

Im here to answer any questions and will continue to come up with new designs.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 8:47 am 
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Why is the black portion unequal? Was this on purpose?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Thu Apr 12, 2012 10:07 am 
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No, this was simply to demonstrate the amount of foam in front of the core. This head was an early prototype. I will replace it with a production model that uses exact measurements. Foams are equally devided as you will see.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:38 am 
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Id like them if they were good, so far, they seem like a clever but **** idea.
If they are allowed, I will be shot in the **** EYES by then hundereds of time whether I like them or not, so you can maybe see my concern. MY **** VISION IS IMPORTANT. More important, in fact, then your profits.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:44 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:49 am 
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50/50

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:08 pm 
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nice slagar, well played.

i also am concerned about the air pockets and thier location. they could be formed infront of the blunt? or is thera function of manufacture that eliminates this. a small air pocket is fine as long as it is on the edge and not infront of the blunt.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 2:37 pm 
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Correct. Product is tossed if there is an air pocket. Foam formula was modified before product was released. It doesn't happen.

We also initiated each product has to be tested before being shipped. It has to pass the blunt force wall test before going out.

I would never put profit over safety. It doesn't make sense. I do not want to be responsible for injuries or death. Product costs are high for stuff like this being made in the USA since everyone is so sue happy. A manufacturer must have products liability and legal coverage's in place beforehand. You think these are cheap to make with that stuff in the mix... they are not. Does that matter, only to those now looking to do this themselves.

Again, that crap doesn't mean anything if the product isn't safe. These are safe and tested. We have some really neat designs in the pipeline too as well as trying to get the costs down for packs of 3,6 and 12.

Video is delayed due to a death in the family. I'll get it out soon. Sure I know you guys don't care if it is just raw footage, but I do. It is the main marketing piece so it has to be done pretty well.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 4:02 pm 
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Hey fork instead of being your usual self, why not use a well adopted phrase that has become popular in foam smithing forum. No final determination can be made without some testing in person.

Artenen your from loderia correct? any chance you'd be willing to donate one or two heads to peanut so us and the crew at muxlovia can play test?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 5:59 pm 
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good idea guts! whats the cost for these?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 13, 2012 6:24 pm 
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Hey guys, I will donate some of the arrows I have. Artenen is actually from wisconsin. I will bring some to practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 11:37 am 
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[/quote] LoL Owned.
Also, you cannot enforce the penny rule without destroying someones arrows. Kind of a silly argument to be having.[/quote]


No, this is not a silly argument at all. A weapons checker ABSOLUTELY has this right if, after talking to the individual who made it, believes they have not followed construction protocol. I did this very thing to the bottom of some haft padding on glaive I believed to have a metal core at chaos last year. All of our construction rules are in place to make sure that a standard level of safety expectations have been reached, and a weapons checker has the right to do what ever they need to in order to determine that the rules have been followed.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sat Apr 14, 2012 12:40 pm 
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I would agree especially on arrows. If I am doing a weapons check at the registration table and the arrow tip does not feel right, either they let me inspect the inside or it goes back in their car.

Homemade arrows scare the crap out of me if I do not know who the person is and their competency levels.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:59 am 
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Yes, it goes without saying that a weapon checker has the right to take apart a weapon with theowners permission. I guess the point I failed to make is that you cannot check every arrow for a penny. If these arrow were covered and ”felt” good, no one would be the wiser. I am not condoning that sort of thing at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 11:48 am 
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good idea guts! whats the cost for these?


Let me know when you guys are testing these out, I'd like to try and make it out for that practice.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 7:38 pm 
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Ixous I look forward to seeing you at practice, with or with arrows, just make sure to take it easy this old man.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:32 am 
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I thoroughly dislike that my name has been attached to the new version of rule 1.4.8.6. Neither Lady Grey, or I had anything to do with the new wording, nor do we agree that it creates sufficient foundation for modular arrows. If the goal of this new rule was to make modular heads legal, where was the discussion of this aspect in the rule proposal? What it does create is a whole lot of havoc for weapons checkers. Rather than outline my points in a second space, I invite you to view the new thread in the War Council Discussion forum. viewtopic.php?f=12&t=40218 I think you will find that where as I am not opposed to the advent of modular arrows, I do believe that some aspects must be codified in order to achieve a standard of safety we have come to expect in our game/sport and in order to create some standards that checkers can use to determine that safety. I believe this is all in the question of a modular connection point being codified in our rule set.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 9:57 pm 
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The concept of a "penny" is woefully obsolete.

Pennies are made of zinc now. That's not entirely a structural metal. That's not even what the original design started with. Pennies were brass (95% copper/5% zinc) until 1982 and AFAIK the arrow designs predated the conversion to zinc.

It does "work", but steel, aluminum, UHMW, Delrin, and nylon are all potentially acceptable, and generally far stronger, lighter, and better purposed, substitutes.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 10:19 pm 
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Artenen wrote:
And our penny is encased in the core. It can't move or break through.

Image

The top 3" of foam is 3lb open cell. The bottom is 10lb for sturdiness.

Live Action Weapons is giving away heads monthly to their followers too on facebook. https://www.facebook.com/pages/Live-Act ... 4998883554

With all the orders of these things, I haven't been able to get the video done but I will for sure soon.


I find your lack of Izod-notch Impact rating disturbing. I'd need to see one.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 11:16 pm 
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Yes, you should see one. The video should clear up a LOT of questions and concerns.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 6:26 am 
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I do not trust that method for making a blunt at all.
It will break off in combat.
Perhaps you could give a better veiw of it(the resin encased penny thing). It looks like a good idea that isn't really going to work, to me.
Please, keep in mind, I have a 20 year manufacuting background. I know tools and these materials you are using. I'm not speaking from no knowlegde what so ever.
It may seem like I'm bustin your balls on this, but arrows are the only REALLY dangerous part of our game. THe y can and will injure and maybe kill people if they fail. We shoot them directly at each other eyes. It's a big, very dangerous, deal.
So far, from what you have shown, your arrows are a * glued to a penny with resin and a cast foam(which many of us do not trust at all from dealing with it at work)that has large air pockets in it.
You say they are great, and insist that people are order ing them. I sincerly hope they are not ordering them for Bel at this point, becasue they WILL fail at any event I have ever been to.
I'm not against people inventing new things, I just do not feel this product is going to work for full contact fighting.
Please, prove me wrong.
FB

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2012 7:14 am 
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Thanks for the feedback. You're not busting my balls. I understand totally as a game administrator myself. These will not fail and without sending you one, the marketing is not yet ready to show you everything. I'm simply here to answer your questions and your giving me everything I need to address in the video.

I do not doubt your industry background at all and it is why I've sent out many arrow heads to game leaders over the last few months. I'm not an idiot, I know these have to be proven in the field "walking the walk" instead of me "talking the talk". I refuse to sell junk and look forward to making things like this that will make weapons check less work for game administrators.

After thousands of tests, trials and tribulations we have come up with a great product that continues to be refined. I agree that arrows are dangerous and it is my passion to make them as safe as possible.

Ask the order member who saw the brick wall test and was shot with these puppies via compound bow yesterday. PM me your address I'll send a core and head to you for review.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 12:44 pm 
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I'd need to actually have one... not see a video.

There's no tensile reinforcement there, and epoxy is strong but compression, not tension, is its primary purpose.

The use of an internal penny seems like a problem to me. Epoxy on metal is not a really top-notch bondline, and there's potentially troubling issues of matching dissimilar flexural modulus when impact like this is involved.


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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 1:43 pm 
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Great comment, let me explain further.

The core is a plastic urethane casting resin that cures quickly offering excellent impact resistance. This semi-rigid plastic will really take a beating and offers exceptional abrasion resistance. It is good for making high-impact resistance tools, prototypes, abrasion resistant parts, foundry patterns, roller facings, vibration pads, fast concrete stamping pads, etc. They are used often in many military applications.

These heads have been in development for about 2 years and we went through hundreds of different materials before finding one that worked for this application.

Think what you want but shooting the core into a brick wall and other surfaces resulted in bent and broke shafts but the core did not break, crack or punch through. And that is at high speed with a compound bow - no foam on the tip.

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 3:37 pm 
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Artenen wrote:
Image
What are the dark, cross shaped lines I see in the resin extending out from under the penny? They look like gaps or different/absence of a material included in the remaining "pie" shapes. Is it just a natural part of fabrication?

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 Post subject: Re: Are modular arrow heads allowed?
PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2012 4:46 pm 
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Those are fins. They are part of the design. Their purpose is to provide resistance to the arrow allowing the user to feel when it is tight. It also holds tension on the sh aft locking the threads so the head has less of a tendency to come loose.

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