Belegarth

I would like to know if the Penn brand foam tennis balls pass as arrow heads. I have 12 Forged Foam arrow kits and two of the tennis balls and I would like to double check to see if arrows with these heads pass.

Remy the Wroth wrote:I would like to know if the Penn brand foam tennis balls pass as arrow heads. I have 12 Forged Foam arrow kits and two of the tennis balls and I would like to double check to see if arrows with these heads pass.

Penn QST? Those are what I use to build arrows these days. Plithut's passed at chaos with no problem.

edit: You'll only need half a ball, per arrow, so the three pack they come in is good for a half-dozen.

Yeah, I figured, I have two left which will be four, which I wanted to attach to four woven carbon-fiber super-arrows but I didn't want to make 'em just to have 'em fail because they were different from the norm.

Penn offers different PST versions the 36 and 60. What are you guys using?

The 36 for me.

I was just thinking about getting some of these. What kind should I be looking for?

Im really interested in this. Where can i find these?

Yes, please! Do tell...

The Penn QST 36 foam balls are what I use in my arrows, and they have passed Byzantium, Mittlemarch Olympics, and Keep on the Borderlands, and I expect them to keep passing. I use Fitz Caliston's build.

Had a ton of the QSt 36 arrows fail for template this year a chaos, when you build them make sure you cut a little bit off the round edge.

Ryu wrote:Had a ton of the QSt 36 arrows fail for template this year a chaos, when you build them make sure you cut a little bit off the round edge.

I'm bothered by this....One of my realm members also had his arrows fail because of an insignificant amount of the curved ball poking through the template. Had to uncover them and shave them down. If a sword with semi-circular tip and radius of 1.5 inches can pass regardless of it passing through template, I think one of these safe arrows should as well.

Fitz' build and these tennis balls ftw.

An arrow head comes at my face perpendicular to the plane of my eyeball, with a 2 foot+ shaft behind it to drive it into my eyeball.

You're **** retarded. The fronts of arrows should be flat.

All those arrows had really bad bounceback during Chaos arrow check. I shot one, it hit and flew back at face level from 15 feet away. They hit nice, but the bounceback is really dangerous.

Big King Jimmy wrote:An arrow head comes at my face perpendicular to the plane of my eyeball, with a 2 foot+ shaft behind it to drive it into my eyeball.

You're **** retarded. The fronts of arrows should be flat.

Not an issue. We're talking fractions of fractions of an inch barely passing through. I've been hit plenty directly in the eye and there's no more danger from it than from a flat arrow.

Cyric wrote:All those arrows had really bad bounceback during Chaos arrow check. I shot one, it hit and flew back at face level from 15 feet away. They hit nice, but the bounceback is really dangerous.

This I've seen and agree with, the tennis balls do have a lot of bounce back.

Tiberius Claudius wrote:

Big King Jimmy wrote:An arrow head comes at my face perpendicular to the plane of my eyeball, with a 2 foot+ shaft behind it to drive it into my eyeball.

You're **** retarded. The fronts of arrows should be flat.

Not an issue. We're talking fractions of fractions of an inch barely passing through. I've been hit plenty directly in the eye and there's no more danger from it than from a flat arrow.

In other words, you are saying that you don't agree with weapon checkers who follow the rules as written? That your friend's failing arrow should have been passed despite it not complying with the rules?

I'm not really harshing on you, I just want it made clear exactly what you are saying, for those that can't read the subtext.

Fork brought some up to arrow check that failed for this insignificant reason. He shaved an eight of an inch off with a razor blade and came back. Had they been covered at this point and had check not been closed they would have passed. Between that and draw stops it was quite a year at arrow check.

I hardly think that arrows that fit into your eye socket an "insignificant reason" for failing. The first day i saw those arrows they fit about a half inch into the template, and thus your eye. I don't know about you, but i'm not comfortable with an arrow going a half inch into my eye. Mercifully, this falls under weapon checker discretion. When the arrows came back the next day trimmed down they weren't as bad, but the high tape on them caused them to bounce back dangerously.

Cyric wrote:I hardly think that arrows that fit into your eye socket an "insignificant reason" for failing. The first day i saw those arrows they fit about a half inch into the template, and thus your eye.

Orokusan wrote:He shaved an eight of an inch off with a razor blade and came back

A half inch is too much, but 1/8" or less which I have witnessed fail is perfectly fine for me to have shot at me. Yes, I'm willing to allow that on the field and be shot at. As said before, I've been shot in the eye directly with one of these multiple times over this fighting season and I'm ok with it.

Reverend wrote:In other words, you are saying that you don't agree with weapon checkers who follow the rules as written? That your friend's failing arrow should have been passed despite it not complying with the rules?

Cyric wrote:Mercifully, this falls under weapon checker discretion

I don't personally agree with the decision when so many other things that are written in the rules are arbitrarily accepted with a nonchalant 'meh, close enough'. Personally, I'm all for 'close enough' in weapons check and the freedom for checkers to make those decisions so long as it isn't a flagrant and obvious safety hazard. But the idea that these arrows need such a miniscule amount of foam shaved off to supposedly go from 'ZOMG THERE'S A STICK IN MY BRAIN' to 'cool dude, nice shot' is not convincing to me.

I do agree, however, that bounceback with these tennis balls is a very legitimate issue.

Tiberius Claudius wrote:

Reverend wrote:In other words, you are saying that you don't agree with weapon checkers who follow the rules as written? That your friend's failing arrow should have been passed despite it not complying with the rules?

Cyric wrote:Mercifully, this falls under weapon checker discretion

I don't personally agree with the decision when so many other things that are written in the rules are arbitrarily accepted with a nonchalant 'meh, close enough'. Personally, I'm all for 'close enough' in weapons check and the freedom for checkers to make those decisions so long as it isn't a flagrant and obvious safety hazard. But the idea that these arrows need such a miniscule amount of foam shaved off to supposedly go from 'ZOMG THERE'S A STICK IN MY BRAIN' to 'cool dude, nice shot' is not convincing to me.

I do agree, however, that bounceback with these tennis balls is a very legitimate issue.

And archery is the one place I'm completely in favor of slavishly adhering to the rules as written.

All other gear in our sport is just a simulation of medieval weaponry. Archery, we take an actual **** weapon and modify it for our use.

^ Fair enough.

One of my realm members also had his arrows fail because of an insignificant amount of the curved ball poking through the template.

The part of the head sticking through the hole is NOT insignificant. It's the part that makes it FAIL. The rules say it can't go through. Rules are **** rules.

However, not one of the 18 arrows I trimmed down stuck more than 1/4" through the hole. I had no problem with shaving them down. Most only poked an 1/8" through the hole. after shaving them down 1/4" each and retaping them a bit looser, none came within 1/4" from the limit.
Very easy fix.
Also, after the shaving, none failed for bounce back.
In order to meet Bel and Dag rules, Fitz is going to have to sand the faces of his arrow kits down 1/4" or they will fail. If you use them, you should just shave them down now. Get an arrow checking jig and make sure you don't take off too much.

Also, please, everyone: Go buy a pair of calipers and check your plywood templates. Most of their holes are bigger than they should be (giggity).

A sword that passes with a 2.50" template can fail a 2.65" template.

Arrakis,

Might be a good idea to teach them to use the calipers aswell.

Cyric wrote:I hardly think that arrows that fit into your eye socket an "insignificant reason" for failing. The first day i saw those arrows they fit about a half inch into the template, and thus your eye. I don't know about you, but i'm not comfortable with an arrow going a half inch into my eye. Mercifully, this falls under weapon checker discretion. When the arrows came back the next day trimmed down they weren't as bad, but the high tape on them caused them to bounce back dangerously.

Cyric,

I bought a set of these balls because I was curious about the new tech. I haven't had a chance to build an arrow with them myself, but I gave one to another guy in our realm and he made two arrows. They were out at practice yesterday and that was the first thing I noticed, the bounceback. I'm going to have to do some more testing, but it seems like these arrows bounce back with not just more force, but much more consistently STRAIGHT back.

Most of us veterans have a story about the arrow knock that almost got them, and I'm no exception. Eventually, it's almost certain that someone is going to get a knock to the eye in this way. I think arrows made with the QST balls make this much more likely, and since they bounce back with more energy, the damage will be even worse.

I'm not saying QST balls should be disallowed (yet), but maybe bounceback is something arrow checkers should be trained to watch out for.

Is anyone else not seeing that these tennis ball arrows are doing what they were made to do? BOUNCE. I personally don't like how much they bounce back, and have 0 issues with them (or any other impact foam with too much bounce) being failed for it. I have some flat impact foam arrows and it took a while of good use to calm them down.

They don't bounce back nearly as much if you shave 1/4" off the front. Once they are flat on the end, they settle down.
If we are going to fail arrows for bounce back, it needs to be defined. How far can they bounce back and still pass?
Lady Grey says 15', as in, if they bounce all the way back to the shooter, they fail, but if they do not, they are good. That seems like a reasonable ruling to me, but we need a standard so things are uniform from event to event.

FB

I think bouncing back to the checker (15') is a good standard. maybe the height of the bounce back should be taken into account as well? arrows flying back at face level are obviously dangerous. Bouncing back on the ground, not so much. The other problem is where they hit in the first place. If i shot someone in the shoulder blade with them, the angle of the shoulder blade would cause the arrow to deflect into the ground. If i shot someone in a flat part of their back, they would fly back dangerously. The flatter ones do have much less bounce back.

With shields being so common, a flat bounce back is extremely likely. Maybe we need to add a step to check to shoot a shield from 15' away and see how far they bounce? I am hesitant to suggest another step in arrow check, but it's for a good reason. maybe just shoot one random from each bunch?

I know I'm coming at this late, but as an archer the real problem with a bounce back rule is what Cyric is talking about. It's hard to test consistently. It's all about making sure that the arrow impacts perpendicular to the surface it strikes, that's what gets you the best bounce back. Plus what you're shooting at makes a significant difference. Bounce back is much worse when you hit a shield, because of the foam. Even a normal edhellen arrow I can make bounce back more than 15' hitting it square on a roudn shield.

Im sorry i dont comment much but this really shouldnt be a problem... I mean yeah there is bounce back but i sign a waiver knowing that i am about to play a sport where i am putting my self in danger of getting **** up The least of my wories personaly is the bounce back of an arrow. Im more worried about the other people that want to crank somebody in a Full contact sport and could accidenty break my face. Belegarth is the best sport ive played just because of the the amount of contact we actually have, i have taken a knock to the eye and it sucks as have i a fricken javelin shaft a sword a shield a fist a forhead a knee a pommell and im sure more. I should have blocked. Its part of the sport. If you dont want to get tackled dont play foot ball. If you dont want to be a Warior dont play belegarth. And i Hate some of the rules in belegarth but they are there for a reason so if it passes through the hole.. It fails Regardless so shave the foam it kind of prevents both problems. OR better yet we could just make arrows out of other substances that are just as good and dont have these issues?

Playing a dangerous sport doesn't mean you don't try to make it less dangerous. I'm glad you're such a bad *, but i'd prefer to keep my eyes, thanks.

Im definatley no badass but i'd like to get on that level lol I mean i understand the concern with bounceback but its alwasy been a problem with other arrows too and its no becoming an issue? that my thing is all

Xilof,

I don't want to discourage you from contributing to these discussions, but you should really do yourself a favor and read everything that's been posted before attempting to add your own thoughts. To summarize: QST tennis balls are a new product, and people have started building arrows using them. Several people have observed, independently, that arrows built using this type of foam seem to have more bounce-back than normal arrows. As bounce-back is one of the more dangerous aspects of archery, this is a cause for concern, and so it needs to be discussed whether this type of foam should be used for arrows.

Utilizing paragraphs would help too. Wall of text with little understanding of grammar make my eyes wish they'd be taken out by an arrow form bounce back.

I did read everything before and i guess i understand what you're getting at but even before these tennis balls there has been bounce back. It's a hazard that i would think if it was really a problem it should have been adjusted well before now. I just don't want to see the sport get to where there is a "You hit me too hard" rule ya know?

Remy the Wroth wrote:Utilizing paragraphs would help too. Wall of text with little understanding of grammar make my eyes wish they'd be taken out by an arrow form bounce back.

Paragraphs i understand. Grammar.. not so much. my bad

Trust me; that little extra effort to make your posts readable will go a long way.
I used to write all in one giant block of text with no periods(thank god for semicolons!); it didn't help any that I was barely able to write in a coherent manner.
Also the arrows bounce back with enough power to return to where they were fired from.
An easy fix is to fire them against a hard surface like a wall a good score or so, essentially breaking down the foam into open cell foam.
When you're at home and you shoot one of the arrows for the first time and it bounces back straight at you and you're staring that nock down, dodging to the side then you'll understand that this is an issue that really should be addressed before it does someone actual physical harm.

yeah but if it bounces more than 2 ft straight back if they are on the line its dangerous. I get what your saying though.

rounded and bounce back problems... I saw that too with this style. Gotta have flat tips to prevent eye injury.

Here is an eye shot pic... it happens all the time in any larp that allows arrows. Best bet is Forged Foam or LAP.



From http://liveactionproducts.com/force-compact-foam-arrow-head-for-larp-black/