Pavise

[Sieglatan]

I've been doing some reading on the Hussite Wars again, and my mind drifted to the utility of the Pavise shield design originally made for crossbowmen and arquebusiers-



Originally, it was a strap shield, with the two small straps for an arm, and a long strap for the back, with two spikes on the bottom with which to stick into the ground- Obviously, the spike design would be slightly unsafe for what we do, but I'm pretty sure something like a safe version of a Mantlet brace could be used instead-



My question, much more out of curiosity than for any plans to actually build one (there are none on this end), is what would be its legality regarding interception of projectiles and reds if left standing as a barrier?

I remember a while back the issue of red hitting a shield on the ground to preemptively break it was quashed since there was nobody holding the shield to decide if the hits were of sufficient force or not. However, I wonder how this would block arrows, since projectiles are assumed to go right through anything that isn't a worn shield.

Again, this is all hypothetical, and more of something that piqued my interest, and thought it would make some interesting thinking, especially in light of the hilarity of Sir I-Hate-the-Internet (and also why I didn't put this in rules questions).

[Glass]

3.5.2. Shields may be used in any reasonable manner and still be considered a Shield.

As far as intercepting arrows I'd say it be fine, the more tricky part would be a stand that would be safe and not break, but I'd say it could be done legally. As far as reds? Well one red swing to a shield propped up like that can't really be felt, so it'd be treated like a shield on the ground. Though I've seen the "break shield on ground" debate played out both ways.

[Tiberius Claudius]

It doesn't fall under the forbidden weapons section as an unmanned trap, so I'd be inclined to allow it in play if it were erected in a safe manner. In fact, I've seen it done where archers propped a short sword up behind a tower shield and took a knee for protection. I'll search pictures. This was totally legit according to the heralds on the field.

[Tails]

I've always played that hits to a shield unheld will count towards breaking it.

[Forkbeard]

You mean like this?
Yes you can make a Pavise. Some **** helralds might not let you use it at some events. But in general, it is very legal. If it gets hit with a red, it will go **** FLYING away.
Also, we have always played that shields can be broken on the ground and always will. If, at an event, I am told that I can not do this, I will simply take discarded shields and throw them off the field. As far as I can.
The idea that a sheidl is not broken becasue no one is hold it to call the shot good enough is **** stupid. It is a house rule(either way you look at it) and has not been discussed by WC.
FB

[Peregrine]

just put your foot on it making you the controlling party and break it with your red.

[Arrakis]

Just note that if anything hits the shield that would have hit you while you're using any other shield (back shield, strap, punch, "buckler", etc.), then you should probably take the shot, as you're illegally "using" more than one shield at a time.

/ruleslawyertrolling

[Peregrine]

Just note that if anything hits the shield that would have hit you while you're using any other shield (back shield, strap, punch, "buckler", etc.), then you should probably take the shot, as you're illegally "using" more than one shield at a time.

/ruleslawyertrolling

well there is that

[Sieglatan]

The idea that a sheidl is not broken becasue no one is hold it to call the shot good enough is **** stupid. It is a house rule(either way you look at it) and has not been discussed by WC.
FB

Here's the thread where I inferred that notion-

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=34344

[Cyric]

i stand by what i posted in the thread. the person taking the red shots determines if they were good enough. i don't think the earth would be impressed by your swings. Most people play that way, but that's my interpretation that it should be held.

keep in mind if you take a knee on the field, you need to stay down. no one needs to think you're legged, then be confused when you get up and run around.

[Arrakis]

By the by, I'm of the opinion that shields that have been dropped should ALL be considered broken.

Otherwise, what's to stop people from picking up broken shields and using them like they are whole?

[konradr]

If the shield is not attached to you, but propped up on the ground, wouldn't it be considered a 'wall' or a 'mantlet'?







Konradr of barad'Dun

[Forkbeard]

No, becasue it can be carried, it is a shield. We do not have rules for walls and **** and that was not the question. The question is about a **** Pavise and a pavise is a SHIELD.

Now, as to whether a unit can brind fake wall sections to the field is another question. If those walls can be moblie, like a mantlet, is yet ANOTHER question. Most inportant is can I kick your mantlet over on the people using it and jump on it, pinning them down. Becasue I AM going to do that.

[randy]

. Most inportant is can I kick your mantlet over on the people using it and jump on it, pinning them down. Becasue I AM going to do that.

I <3 you!

[konradr]

I've seen many a flimsy structure thrown up to represent 'forts', 'castles' or just walls. If we charged these structures en masse, we could surely, as you stated, topple these things over and on top of the defenders behind them. But we don't because:

A) SAFETY: Yes, we are playing a game and are concerned for the safety of our fellow game players.

B) PLAYABILITY: Since we can't have real castle walls to storm, or portable siege walls and mantlets, we must make do with simulated ones and our imaginations. It is a game, not the real thing. Always will be the former and never the Latter. Unless doomsday happens and maybe we can translate some of this game into a real world advantage.

Now, back to the topic at hand:

If the Pavise is to be considered a 'shield' then yes, it must conform to all shield rules. Ie; it must be the max dimensions of a shield, you can only use one shield at a time, and they can be 'broken' by two solid red hits. However, if its to be planted on the ground, then my question was why couldn't it be considered a 'Wall'. As in a portable mantlet. As a 'Wall' it could be any dimensions, and could remain in place for anyone to use even after its owner was killed, you could wear a shield and be protected by both, and it would be immune to reds. You could have 'Scenario Rules' allowing fire arrows or Red Axes to be able to damage them. Hopefullly a Herald would prevent anyone from intentionally kicking one over on top of someone and stomping on them as you pointed out. That would just be insane.

Konradr of Barad'Dun

[Forkbeard]

Kicking it over on people and using it to hold them down is absolutely safe if it is a padded thing that is as safe as a shield. If it is not as safe as a shield, it should not be a moblie part of the game.
THe crappy forts people put up at events are NOT mobile fortresses. to not allow me to kick it down(something that can be done to a REAL mantlet and probly it's only weakness outside on heavy catapults or fire) would be to give it HUGE and un natural advantages.
That is not going to fly in a inter realm sense, though it is very possible on a local level.
I'm not against the idea of mantlets, pavise's and other **** like this. I'm actually all for it. But I'm all for making it safe for full contact fighting. I am against anything that require extra safety rules and restraint in combat.
FB

[Shell]

I'm a little late to the party, sorry.

How would we go about making a pavise that is as non-rules-offensive as possible? I was thinking of having the body made from a large core-less shield blank. It would be just as safe as a normal shield, and light enough that it landing on some scrawny 17 year old wont kill him, at least until forkbeard jumps on top of the pile.

The part I'm stuck on is how to make it stand up in a way that is safe and conforms to usual shield rules. Any sort of tripod system that was rigidly attached to the shield would be a entangle/broken arm waiting to happen. Any sort of longer "bottom" to the shield would just snap whenever it is kicked down.

My current Idea is for a non-connected fiberglass rod, capped and wrapped with foam, that is braced against the shield and the ground. It would be in no way sturdy, but I think that it would be hard to be hurt by this system, as long as the stick doesn't get pushed through someones stomach when FB kicks, jumps on, charges at, or otherwise destroys said pavise.

Thoughts?

[Lione]

What about some kind of shield with wheels and a leg near the bottom that could support it's own weight but would collapse and not break if jumped on? A small leg inside of a channel with a locking mechanism perhaps?

Or you could do something similar to Drunken Bob and build a shield with a curve in it that can stand up on it's own.

[Reverend]

I'm a little late to the party, sorry.

How would we go about making a pavise that is as non-rules-offensive as possible? I was thinking of having the body made from a large core-less shield blank. It would be just as safe as a normal shield, and light enough that it landing on some scrawny 17 year old wont kill him, at least until forkbeard jumps on top of the pile.

The part I'm stuck on is how to make it stand up in a way that is safe and conforms to usual shield rules. Any sort of tripod system that was rigidly attached to the shield would be a entangle/broken arm waiting to happen. Any sort of longer "bottom" to the shield would just snap whenever it is kicked down.

My current Idea is for a non-connected fiberglass rod, capped and wrapped with foam, that is braced against the shield and the ground. It would be in no way sturdy, but I think that it would be hard to be hurt by this system, as long as the stick doesn't get pushed through someones stomach when FB kicks, jumps on, charges at, or otherwise destroys said pavise.

Thoughts?

If you go that route, why not just put two notches up near the top and use some javelins as the "legs"?

[Wart]

Just note that if anything hits the shield that would have hit you while you're using any other shield (back shield, strap, punch, "buckler", etc.), then you should probably take the shot, as you're illegally "using" more than one shield at a time.

/ruleslawyertrolling

Well technically if this were the case, that means I can't carry a shield and still hide behind somebody elses, which I can..

[Remdawg Killionaire]

Illogical; they're using the shield, not you. Having a pavisse and say a buckler is you using two shields at the same time. Makes sense to me, tho I understand how what you are saying could make sense to you. Even if it's not really in the same vein as what we're talking about, but nice try.
Seems like something that could be tested at CW or Arm.

[Cheeseheart]

Propped up my shield with my mace today while arching. Totally saved me from an arrow shot towards midsection/thighs. Truly no need to make something special. It's easy setup and easy breakdown, especially effective when you run out of arrows and you decide to do the manly thing by not running around to find more, thus prolonging the game.