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 Post subject: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 3:37 am 
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I want to try out Dual Cores for some cheap loaners that will only need the occasional re-box/blade in the events of breakdowns. I started my own group (not bel, more like hardcore prison rules SCA but with foam) and all my PVC loaners are breaking by at least 1 every other practice. Which wouldn't be an issue if we weren't growing by 1-3 members almost every time we practice. I know Dual Cores is time consuming but I have around 7 people that are going to help make them with me, and an area set up at practice for the cores to set and people to monitor them so it's not really a hassle.

Going with Driveway markers. Using Liquid nails as an adhesive for the cores, but I wanted to know what Tape I could use to help secure the core that will adhere to Dap.

Some of the info on the Wiki is outdated and I'd rather get some information from someone who's done it before.

Thanks in advance!

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 5:44 am 
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use just a couple of thin strips of tape to hold the cores together while the liquid nails dries. After that it should be unnecessary to tape the cores together, although eventually they are going to separate. If you feel the need to tape the cores together, i think dap holds well to strapping tape, if i remember correctly.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 6:28 am 
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Are 1/2" solid fiberglass cores not available by you? they will solve the breakage problems and are fairly cheap.

If you are willing to pay shipping you could probably get enough for 10 swords for $30 and $15 shipping

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 8:37 am 
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barley wrote:
Are 1/2" solid fiberglass cores not available by you? they will solve the breakage problems and are fairly cheap.

If you are willing to pay shipping you could probably get enough for 10 swords for $30 and $15 shipping


I'm just not paying for the best core materials for loner weapons, 1/2" solid fiberglass is twice the price of 2x driveway markers ($1.70 for two at my home depot) and also has shipping added to the price tag. When I can teach 7 of my top smithers how to double core and mass produce sturdy, cheaper blues.

Edit: Think of it this way, I don't even pay for these loner weapons, as they're for my club. If I use cheaper loner weapons and keep 15 on hand at all times, I can keep my registration fee low. Right now it's 7$, that covers the cost of 1 blue sword and liability waver/rule book copies. If I used more expensive materials for loner weapons it'd have to jump to 10 dollars, and while that isn't much, it's double digits which isn't appealing to the eyes, and I've already charged a lot of players 7$ and would hate to go back and charge them 3$ extra to keep things fair amongst the players. If I ordered the materials online, it would be 1$ extra per core plus 15$ shipping, that 1$ adds up.

I paid for the last batch of 5 loner weapons out of pocket, because we went through 5 really fast in the last weak. If I can make sturdier weapons using core materials that are around the same price as PVC and a little more time invested by my club, it's the better financial decision for everyone.
Cyric wrote:
use just a couple of thin strips of tape to hold the cores together while the liquid nails dries. After that it should be unnecessary to tape the cores together, although eventually they are going to separate. If you feel the need to tape the cores together, i think dap holds well to strapping tape, if i remember correctly.


Thank youu. I didn't know the tape wasn't even needed. I've just seen templates where, the tape was kept, and some that have gone as far as to wrap the entire core in tape. Just to find out that tape isn't really even needed.

When the cores do separate (I've read that some players have actively used double cores and have had the weapon not separate for up to 2 years, any truth in this?) Is there any way to sand them down and liquid nail them back together again?

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 9:16 am 
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I totally understand the concern about cost and I am not trying to be a jerk. I want to share my expeirence so you can make your own educated decision.

Safety 10000000% first. If you can't afford to do it safely, then don't do it.

As a loaner weapon, I would exepct that the people that will use them are typically newer, less trained, and have not mastered weapon control. If it was me, i want this person to have the best quality weapon so that they do not hurt ME.

I am not saying that what you are doing is unsafe, but when first core delaminates and breaks thru foam and "cores someone". You could spend a lot of energy convincing others that hear the story that your game is safe.

I am newer to Bel (3yrs) and i have heard all of the "core-er stories" like this. No one can convince me that to save $ per weapon that these type of dual cores are a good idea. As an aside, making stronger cores will cause the weapon to last longer but they will fail in new ways - tip blow out, core blow out, tip twist, etc. Put the money into good quality materials and build protocols and you will get durable, safe weapons and you will save a lot ($, time, energy, PR) in the long run.

I mass produce weapons. There is going to be weapon-to-weapon variability. It is unavoidable because you do not control the raw material quality (foam and fiberglass) and unless there are formal procedures that are followed rigorously there will be foam smith-to-foam smith variability too. Been there - done that.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:04 am 
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What's the proper way to double core then? I'm not only doing this method just for the loners, because some people just don't order things online. Some people just aren't comfortable with it and I want to accommodate them as well. I was lead to think that the best core under 1/2" fiberglass for blues was to double core because it's seems like the only sturdy substitute to make cheaper weapons or to make weapons for people who don't like to order online.

I never said you were a jerk.. I'm just thorough and I wanted to fully explain the reasons as to why I'm doing this.

I never knew double coring wasn't safe. My group is a very physical group, there aren't many rules about physical combat except that your weapons have to be safe. Other than that, the only other rule is no punching, it's a pretty hardcore group.

Would it be safer just to keep using PVC?

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:22 am 
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do you have any kind of farm & fleet, or tractor supply ect. they can order the size fiberglass you need and you will not have to pay shipping.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:26 am 
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No, I wish. Otherwise I would have just gone there. I've done my research, I know suppliers. These are just this limitations I'm willing to go to for loners, and these are the limitations of some of my players.

Can anyone give me an explanation of how Dual Cores aren't safe, or how to make them safe? Everyone's telling me just use other stuff, but this is what I'm going with because it's easiest for me and my players.

However if there's no way of making it safe, I'll shell out for shipping and order rods online. I'd just like a good argument from a player experience with dual coring to help me make my decision.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:03 pm 
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dual cores are perfectly fine. In the old days, we used them all the time. The worst that will happen is the cores will separate at the tip, causing the foam to break away from the core faster, and it will blow the tip out. This is the same as the tip blowing out of a 1/2 solid fiberglass core. Yes, it's easier to use a 1/2 fiberglass core, but sometimes you work with what you have on hand. It's still safer and more durable than PVC. I've got a dual core that would probably still pass weapon check, and it's the first fiberglass sword i owned, 12 years ago. Granted i haven't used it in years. While it was in use, for about 3 years, i think i only had to re-glue the core once.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jun 28, 2012 2:49 pm 
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Cyric wrote:
dual cores are perfectly fine. In the old days, we used them all the time. The worst that will happen is the cores will separate at the tip, causing the foam to break away from the core faster, and it will blow the tip out. This is the same as the tip blowing out of a 1/2 solid fiberglass core. Yes, it's easier to use a 1/2 fiberglass core, but sometimes you work with what you have on hand. It's still safer and more durable than PVC. I've got a dual core that would probably still pass weapon check, and it's the first fiberglass sword i owned, 12 years ago. Granted i haven't used it in years. While it was in use, for about 3 years, i think i only had to re-glue the core once.


Thank you so much, Cyric. This is exactly what I was looking for. (not someone to "convince" me to go with my idea, but to reaffirm the pros and cons)

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 11:59 am 
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Get Walmart camp foam like 7, Dap like 7, and get 1/2" square fiberglass, and youll have a good core you can build on for a min. Also good for min reds.
http://neoprene-rods-bars.com/fiberglass/bars.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 12:04 pm 
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That's the best way to make good weapons for cheap. your best bet is to get good cores and just keep reblading them.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Sat Jun 30, 2012 2:47 pm 
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With all due respect; You should read, sir.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Sun Jul 01, 2012 9:53 am 
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Look, you're asking a question and then ignoring the answers you don't want. The reason people are telling you to get 1/2" fiberglass is because it is the best solution to your problem. It is easier to build/repair, safer, and will out last pretty much every other option available.

I'll itemize out that last sentence for your benefit.

No bond between double cores is permanent. Because of the flex generated when you hit someone with a foam weapon, stress will be placed on that bond causing it to weaken over time and break. Depending on how good or lucky you are, this will probably take anywhere from an hour to 2 years. When it happens you will have to pull the blade off, clean the cores and rebond and reblade. It is much easier to redap a loose tip if you don't have to pull the entire blade to rebond the dual cores.

Safety is simple. Because of the debonding problem that many dual cores have. They can blow tips easily as the debonded cores shift inside the foam. This is especially an issue if the person using them is new and doesn't check their weapon periodically, or have enough experience to spot a problem. This is not to say that single cored weapons do not blow tips, but dual cores have a greater tendency in my experience. I suspect it to be due to the movement of the twin cores after they become debonded but have no proof of this. I have no doubt that Cyric has a dual core that is safe after years of use, he has been in the game long enough to build or repair a quality weapon without any instruction or supervision. Do not count on the first dual cores you build having the kind of longevity he describes.

You don't seem to be understanding what greater longevity means for you as a foamsmith. Your weapons will last longer so you will build/rebuild fewer of them. From the experience I have had maintaining a community *, I'd bet dollars to donuts that 1/2" cores will save you money in the long run. As it is, you're spending extra time now with the result being that you will spend extra time in the future to fix it.

I understand your cost concerns, but try to take into account the upfront cost versus the long term. I hope that this helps and wish you luck with your club.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 12:42 am 
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Wow. I ignored the answer because someone already provided it and I explained why it wasn't a suitable answer based upon my needs at the given time that the question was asked. Not to mention I was polite about it. If you read the other posts you would know this. Now to YOU I say with NO due respect because you've shown none to me and you're coming off as a condescending * hole. R E A D.

Highlighted some key points in hopes that you won't skim it, talk down to me, and make an * out of yourself. But feel free to keep relaying the same information to me that I've stated in previous posts aren't suited for my needs and then give me a lecture about it when I "reject" it.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 10:15 am 
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Whoa, dude...

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Everyone replying has your best interests and well being in mind and wants to save you time, money, and headaches.

If charging your members is what you're afraid of, that's fine. Do what you will. But it's probably a good idea to talk it over with them and keep the 1/2 fiberglass dream in mind for the future.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:17 pm 
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There's just no helping some people.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Here's what you may be missing and what everyone here is trying to point out to you. When a single core 1/2" fiberglass separates from the foam, often times you can simply re glue it and its an easy fix assuming the core didn't blow out the side of the foam. Usually this can be spotted by checking the tip for twist often.

Quote:
I want to try out Dual Cores for some cheap loaners that will only need the occasional re-box/blade in the events of breakdowns.

This will not be the case for dual cores. If that's the only maintenance you want to do you will be sorely disappointed.

When a dual core blows, And all of the one's I've owned have done this in my now almost 10 year fighting career, They rip and shred the foam at the tip when they separate. So not only are you using older, inferior technology, you are spending more money on foam, liquid nails to glue your cores, and time. And if your like most of us, you probably work, and should realize that time is just as valuable as money.

There are numerous reasons why the mainstream tech has shifted away from double cores. Longevity and Cost of Repairs being the main. You come here asking people to tell you what they know from years of experience, and then proceed to ignore the larger group of people telling you what you don't want to hear and only listen to the one person who tells you what you want.

If your group is as physical as you say, Spend the extra money on fiberglass. Do what a lot of us do and get a group together and order it with the combined money and that will lower everyone's shipping cost.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 10:28 am 
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teh Guts wrote:
There are numerous reasons why the mainstream tech has shifted away from double cores. Longevity and Cost of Repairs being the main.


I disagree. People have shifted away from double cores because they hit harder and are heavier. The game is becoming softer and faster, so that technology is disfavored. Probably half of my swords are shaved rectangular fiberglass comparable to these double cores with a 4# box and the other half are 1/2" round cores, and the only reason I have to fix the rectangular swords more is because I use them a lot more.

In the end, you can't get foam smithing experience until you make a lot of stuff and see what works. If you don't care how much you learn, just stick with the method that the most people use. If you want to learn more, try stuff that might not work out as well, and be prepared for it to fail. Note: this method also can be applied to life.


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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:09 pm 
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Brutus shaved square may be comparable in hit to dbl core but its breakdown rate is much less than a double core due to not having to worry about separation of the cores, which is what everyone here is trying to explain to the OP. Double core was and will always be poor construction due to the nature and stress of our game. Its not meant for the flex which our swords do on impact.

All my stuff is 4# box and typically 16 to 18 oz. I'm no light hitter and blow out 4# boxes on occasion. That's using the best tech out there right now. Give me a double core and it will last maybe a day at an event before the core delaminates

tl;dr
Older tech may work but you will spend more time and money than spending a lil more upfront for a much better end product.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 4:48 am 
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double core =/= dual core.

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:34 am 
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Brutus wrote:
In the end, you can't get foam smithing experience until you make a lot of stuff and see what works. If you don't care how much you learn, just stick with the method that the most people use. If you want to learn more, try stuff that might not work out as well, and be prepared for it to fail. Note: this method also can be applied to life.


Why waste time and money doing something people have been doing for longer than you have been in the game? Listen to the older vets and they will tell you the exact same thing 90% of us in this thread are saying, make weapons good not cheap. If you go dual core over a square core the money you save will be put into foam and dap instead of in your pocket. Dual cores require more frequent maintenance than anything on a square core. Best advice for making weapons.....GET A GOOD **** CORE...

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2012 3:19 pm 
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The core is the heart of the weapon; it is of utmost importance to use a good one for the application.

My preferences in cores for

Blues: .524 kitespar, 3/8" square fiberglass, 1/2" round fiberglass, 1/2" square fiberglass, 1/2" PVC (loaners and some flails, only)

Reds: 1/2" square fiberglass or bandpole (length-dependent), 5/8" round fiberglass, really awesome bamboo (for certain things)

in descending order of preference. There's no reason to dual-core 3/8" fiberglass any more.

Either spend the extra two latte's worth of money for half a dozen 1/2" round cores, shipped (or just pick them up at a store in person next time you're on a road trip/going to an event/at an event from another fighter, etc.). Or just make 26" total length swords on the 3/8"; it won't flex out at that length.

Also, start using Bel's rules. They're the best rules.


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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:17 am 
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Started Fighting: 30 Jul 2008
I'll expand on that and say that if you keep a 3/8" round core under 27", it won't flex too much - a well made sword can be up to 30" core safely on that, and these are usually fine for loners *and* better than dual cored 1/4" driveway markers. Additionally, you say it's $1.70 for a pair of driveway markers - around my area at least, it's about $1.80 for a 3/8" core, and you don't need to bind it to anything or worry about separation.

Now if it were remotely possible to *find* 3/8" square anywhere, I'd be jumping on that in a heartbeat for blues. Last I heard the only place was bestdagstuff, which has shut down... :(

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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2012 8:24 am 
Warning: Knows Math
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Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 3:24 pm
Posts: 4792
Location: near Newark, NJ
Started Fighting: 17 Jun 2007
Realm: Goldenvale+East Kingdom
Unit: Omega Company
Favorite Fighting Styles: No gimmicks.
You can possibly chisel or plane 1/2" round down to ~3/8" square.


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 Post subject: Re: Tape, Dap, and Dual Core question.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 12, 2012 6:25 pm 
Monkey
Monkey
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Joined: Sat May 23, 2009 4:06 pm
Posts: 152
Location: Beyond the Black River
Started Fighting: 0- 3-2009
Realm: aquilonia
Unit: Western Uruk-hai an Reavers
Favorite Fighting Styles: S&B, min red, and glaive
I was wondering when you were gonna show up arrakis. Lol

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