Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Making Weapons and Shields

Moderator: Belegarth: Forum Moderators

Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Sun Mar 24, 2013 7:29 pm

Hi all,

I've been out of Belegarth for a couple of years, and I know right around when I was leaving, the accepted way of building stabbing tips for weapons was changing significantly.

When I first crafted my weapons, we used open cell foam inbetween the first and second blade layer of striking surface foam.

Can someone explain to me how best to build a stabbing tip that would pass now?

I'd also like to make sure my general method of building a weapon still stands up to any changes in what's considered good:

Step 1: Box the core.
Step 2: Apply two layers of foam for the striking surface.
Step 3: Apply approxamitely two layers worth at least for the pommel.
Then do whatever you want to do for the handle, incidental padding, misc stuff along those lines.

The materials I use are PVC and Blue Foam for cheap loaner weapons, with open cell for stabbing tips.
For higher cost weapons I go with Fiberglass rods (I believe I double them up to get a more realistic shape to the sword), and I have this 3/8" Minicel Foam from foamfactory.com (I believe this is it: http://www.thefoamfactory.com/closedcel ... -foam.html ) which would make it 2LB Polyetheline foam, I think.

I also have no idea how people do caution padding these days.

Any advice on how to better things before I jump back into making weapons would be great!

Thanks
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Mint » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:12 pm

Hello and welcome back!

Most modern stabbing tips use Ensolite, and the proper technique in making one looks like this:

Image

The tape there is strapping tape, or fiberglass filament tape. I've found it doesn't like to stick to foam as well as duct tape, so I put a layer of duct tape over the flat neat the tip prior to making the stab tip.

Fundamentally, your described build is still solid. The best-constructed flatblades in the game today typically employ 4# EVA foam for the box, often a 'la routed fry not unlike Edhellen blade kits. Top with 2# polyethylene, akin to the stuff to which you linked.

For haft padding (caution padding?), I usually just use what's reasonable for the weapon. A layer of bluefoam and a layer of 3/8" minicell is what I use for hafted blues. The BOW only states one mustn't be able to feel core through haft padding, but most checkers will be happier if the padding is a little more than just enough.

If my understanding is correct, double-cores have largely fallen out of favor to .5" round fiberglass cores as the standard, which can inexpensively be obtained from farm supply stores such as Fleet Farm.

Hope that all helped, please ask for any clarification if needed!
Jeckyllmint Q. Stoutbrew
Sand Plains Quartermaster & War Council Rep.
Initiate of the Sons of Sylas

Slagar wrote:MinTech: Feel the freshness, *.
User avatar
Mint
Monkey
Monkey
 
Posts: 187
Joined: Wed Dec 29, 2010 5:49 pm
Location: Wisconsin
Started Fighting: 0- 9-2010
Realm: Sand Plains
Unit: Sons of Sylas
Favorite Fighting Styles: shame stick

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:26 pm

Thanks for the response!

Firstly, I have no idea what a routed fry is... I've never picked up an Edhellen blade kit.

So if I don't have 4# EVA foam for the box, I guess my weapon just wont be quite as durable as it could be?

As far as cores go, I think what I do have is .5 inch fiberglass from here: http://www.mgs4u.com/fiberglass-tube-rod.htm

Since I live in an area of California that's not very rural, I likely can't find a farm supply store, closest I get is Home Depot/Lowes/Orchard Supply, so I have to get them online.

A thought just occurred to me, remembering it from last time I built weapons...
A round half-inch core seems really thin to me. Maybe my DAP application is just crude, but I have a hard time getting the foam to bond to the fiberglass firmly. Oftentimes I'll end up with a sort of "Twisted" effect, where there's just something slightly off and if you looked down the edge of the blade you can see that it's well, twisted.

Right now I use basically a pallet knife sort of thing. (Broad plastic scraper-looking painting tool) I dip it into dap, then use it to spread on the gluing surface, rinse repeat. Is there a better way to go? I can see working with a thin surface like a .5 inch fiberglass rod being a real pain using my current method.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Caleidah » Sun Mar 24, 2013 11:52 pm

Vourn wrote:Firstly, I have no idea what a routed fry is... I've never picked up an Edhellen blade kit.

You can pick 'em up cheap at www.edhellen.com and they are remarkably easy to work with. Even if you just pick one up to have a reference for future routing projects. They're also great for quick fixes when you don't have the time to do the full box/blades.

So if I don't have 4# EVA foam for the box, I guess my weapon just wont be quite as durable as it could be?

Pretty much. Blue foam can still last a decently long time if you use good building practices, but nowhere near as long as 4# EVA.

As far as cores go, I think what I do have is .5 inch fiberglass from here: http://www.mgs4u.com/fiberglass-tube-rod.htm

Should be alright if you use the solid. I don't have any experience with their .5" tube.

Since I live in an area of California that's not very rural, I likely can't find a farm supply store, closest I get is Home Depot/Lowes/Orchard Supply, so I have to get them online.

Worth it to check it out. You may also wish to PM Anastasia of Chamonix. She's down in Cali and could probably point you toward good local suppliers. She's also online frequently so you would get a quick response.

A thought just occurred to me, remembering it from last time I built weapons...
A round half-inch core seems really thin to me. Maybe my DAP application is just crude, but I have a hard time getting the foam to bond to the fiberglass firmly. Oftentimes I'll end up with a sort of "Twisted" effect, where there's just something slightly off and if you looked down the edge of the blade you can see that it's well, twisted.

That just comes down to making precise cuts and taking your time to lay the strips of foam to the core. I generally start attaching the foam at the tip. I put the pommel end toward my chest and get on eye-level with the core to make sure that I'm laying it straight. Everyone uses different juju for that process, I'm sure. Just comes down to practice.

For getting the foam to adhere better, you should take a piece of sandpaper and lightly sand the core before you try to glue to it. This will break up the surface and create more surface area for adhesion. For the foam, you can drag a serrated knife against the foam to rough the surface. To do this, put the edge against the foam, tilt it to a 45* angle or so, and drag the knife along the foam. When doing this, drag toward the back of the knife. You're not looking to cut the foam, just to scratch up the surface.

Right now I use basically a pallet knife sort of thing. (Broad plastic scraper-looking painting tool) I dip it into dap, then use it to spread on the gluing surface, rinse repeat. Is there a better way to go? I can see working with a thin surface like a .5 inch fiberglass rod being a real pain using my current method.


I just use a scrap of foam. There's always tons of them laying around as you're working on weapons, and they spread the DAP well.
Knight of Grond
Palatine of the Sons of Sylas
"But in life, the young king becomes a tyrant, and leads his people to war."
User avatar
Caleidah
Boo Radley
 
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:36 pm
Location: Central IL
Started Fighting: 03 Jan 2009
Realm: Grond
Unit: Sons of Sylas
Favorite Fighting Styles: Boot and Bottle

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:02 am

Thanks for the info! Especially with some contact information for someone in California, I'll look into that!

Caleidah wrote:
So if I don't have 4# EVA foam for the box, I guess my weapon just wont be quite as durable as it could be?

Pretty much. Blue foam can still last a decently long time if you use good building practices, but nowhere near as long as 4# EVA.


Are you suggesting that I should put Blue Foam for the box, and my 2LB 3/8'' Polyetheline for blade layers?
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Caleidah » Mon Mar 25, 2013 12:16 am

Vourn wrote:Thanks for the info! Especially with some contact information for someone in California, I'll look into that!

Caleidah wrote:
So if I don't have 4# EVA foam for the box, I guess my weapon just wont be quite as durable as it could be?

Pretty much. Blue foam can still last a decently long time if you use good building practices, but nowhere near as long as 4# EVA.


Are you suggesting that I should put Blue Foam for the box, and my 2LB 3/8'' Polyetheline for blade layers?

Don't waste good foam over bluefoam. Save the PE for when you have some 4# to use for a box.
Knight of Grond
Palatine of the Sons of Sylas
"But in life, the young king becomes a tyrant, and leads his people to war."
User avatar
Caleidah
Boo Radley
 
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:36 pm
Location: Central IL
Started Fighting: 03 Jan 2009
Realm: Grond
Unit: Sons of Sylas
Favorite Fighting Styles: Boot and Bottle

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Mon Mar 25, 2013 1:16 am

Does it matter if it's 4# Poly or EVA? Is there a difference?

Also, is there a single site that has Ensolite and 4# foam? Everywhere I look, the shipping cost is crazy high, so if I can get it all shipped from one provider, I'll save 15-30$ right there.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Caleidah » Mon Mar 25, 2013 10:32 am

Vourn wrote:Does it matter if it's 4# Poly or EVA? Is there a difference?

Also, is there a single site that has Ensolite and 4# foam? Everywhere I look, the shipping cost is crazy high, so if I can get it all shipped from one provider, I'll save 15-30$ right there.

4# EVA lasts a lot longer than the PE. Higher shear point. Mint knows more on this one, I'm sure he'll pop in here at some point.
Knight of Grond
Palatine of the Sons of Sylas
"But in life, the young king becomes a tyrant, and leads his people to war."
User avatar
Caleidah
Boo Radley
 
Posts: 2055
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 11:36 pm
Location: Central IL
Started Fighting: 03 Jan 2009
Realm: Grond
Unit: Sons of Sylas
Favorite Fighting Styles: Boot and Bottle

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Mon Mar 25, 2013 11:27 am

4# EVA is the stuff you will find in puzzle mats from stores such as Wal-Mart (Gold's Gym puzzle mats), Harbor Freight, and Big Lots. The Gold's Gym stuff is, in my opinion, the better of the three options, and about $4 more expensive, I think.

4# EVA does have a higher shear point than PE, but it still has a lower shear rating than 4# MC, which is the current "gold standard" as far as foam quality goes, though it is 2X more expensive than 4# EVA, and less accessible.

You can use the 4# even if you can't route. Simply build your box with it as you would a blue box, and you'll still see greater longevity, though it does add a fair bit of weight to the blade, making counter weighting practically necessity.

If you want to get an idea of good materials, Barley sells build kits for blue weapons that include a 1" thick 2# PE blade, a routed 4# box (EVA, I think), and a 3/4" thick piece of ensolite for stab tip. You can get this kit for a 1/2" round fiberglass core for $15 + S&H, unless his prices have changed; I've built three swords from this kit, and have been very happy with them, only requiring a reblade on my main weapon recently, which put the blade's life at about 6 months, which is pretty good for a very heavily used sword.

I would message him if you were interested in that. Alric, on the Dag forums, also sells material kits in this fashion, but uses MC for the blade and box; his work is also of great quality, and comes highly recommended.. MC presents its own difficulties, but that is a discussion that gets into some of the newer, more advanced foamsmithing techniques.

If you have any other build questions, please post again. I check the boards, typically, a couple times a day, and have a decent info-bank on foamsmithing technique and modern tech.

Cheers,

Thurat
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Nish » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:19 pm

So, where does one acquire 4# MC foam?
Image
**** the boards
~nish
User avatar
Nish
Backstabber
Backstabber
 
Posts: 300
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2008 10:19 pm
Location: Bloomington, IN
Started Fighting: 0- 2-2008
Realm: Rhovanian
Favorite Fighting Styles: junk in the trunk

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Mon Mar 25, 2013 8:40 pm

Thurat wrote:4# EVA is the stuff you will find in puzzle mats from stores such as Wal-Mart (Gold's Gym puzzle mats), Harbor Freight, and Big Lots. The Gold's Gym stuff is, in my opinion, the better of the three options, and about $4 more expensive, I think.

4# EVA does have a higher shear point than PE, but it still has a lower shear rating than 4# MC, which is the current "gold standard" as far as foam quality goes, though it is 2X more expensive than 4# EVA, and less accessible.

You can use the 4# even if you can't route. Simply build your box with it as you would a blue box, and you'll still see greater longevity, though it does add a fair bit of weight to the blade, making counter weighting practically necessity.

If you want to get an idea of good materials, Barley sells build kits for blue weapons that include a 1" thick 2# PE blade, a routed 4# box (EVA, I think), and a 3/4" thick piece of ensolite for stab tip. You can get this kit for a 1/2" round fiberglass core for $15 + S&H, unless his prices have changed; I've built three swords from this kit, and have been very happy with them, only requiring a reblade on my main weapon recently, which put the blade's life at about 6 months, which is pretty good for a very heavily used sword.

I would message him if you were interested in that. Alric, on the Dag forums, also sells material kits in this fashion, but uses MC for the blade and box; his work is also of great quality, and comes highly recommended.. MC presents its own difficulties, but that is a discussion that gets into some of the newer, more advanced foamsmithing techniques.

If you have any other build questions, please post again. I check the boards, typically, a couple times a day, and have a decent info-bank on foamsmithing technique and modern tech.

Cheers,

Thurat

Great information, thanks.
The nearest Wal-Mart to me is... not all that near, but it would probably be cheaper to go there than to find it online. If I can't get it locally and I needed to get 4# EVA online, where would you go? Or would you just go all out and get 4# MC if you were ordering online?

Routing... I think I can visualize how to do it. Let's say I was trying to box a .5'' fiberglass rod:
1. Cut three strips the length of the rod and roughly three times the width of the rod.
2. Glue them together
3. Cut out a slot along the middle of it through two layers of foam.
4. Glue the core into the slot
5. Glue in the last piece of foam to seal the core in?
This is just going off of what it looks like an Edhellen reblade kit does. The other way I can imagine is wrapping a single piece around.

I'm also starting to get confused on terms here, so I'm going to state what I think they mean and let me know if any of it's wrong.
MC = Minicell
PE = Polyethylene

The reason I'm confused is the foam I bought a year or two ago was from Foamfactory and was invoiced as:(MC2-0-375F)3/8" Minicel Foam - Full Sheet 72x48
But if I search for the same product code now, I find (MC2-0-375F) 3/8" Crosslinked Polyethylene - Full Sheet 72x48

Is what I have Minicell, or Polyethylene, or is there no difference?
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:08 pm

Minicell is MC. MC is a type of crosslinked polyethylene, if I'm not mistaken.

The method you described would be if you were using all 2# foam. You do not want to make a blade of nothing but 4# foam. For a routed 4# box, you would just use a single layer of 1/2" thick 4#, routed to half the thickness of your core. I give my routed layers a 1/2" on either side of the channel, so the routed fry (the term for a length of foam; don't ask me why) would be 1 1/2" wide. You would then "sandwich" the core into that fry. Ta-da: routed box.

If you can't get an actual router, then I would either just box the core normally, or buy the routed boxes from someone else; by themselves, the routed boxes typically run $5 a piece. If you do have a router, go to your local hardware store and get yourself a 1/2" Core Box routing bit. You can get a cheap one (you're cutting foam, so cheap is ok) for somewhere around $15, I want to say. Making a jig to guide your router is also very useful.

The reason I say this is because the whole point of the routed box is to alleviate the issues associated with having air space between the core and foam, which is an inherent issue of traditional boxing (the corners have air space). If you cut the channel without a router, you'll just have more uneven space, which is probably going to cause more issues than just a plain box method.

As far as MC vc EVA 4#, if you're ordering online, the only thing that makes EVA cheaper than MC, is you can buy EVA locally.

The Gold's Gym mat is 6 sheets of 24" X 24" X 1/2" EVA. Once the puzzle edges are cut down, you end up with 22" X 22". So, you're ultimately left with 66" X 44" of EVA. At $20 dollars a sheet, this comes out to roughly $1.07/sqft.

Minicell, when ordered in a full sheet (60" X 72" X 1/2") from foamforyou.com, comes out to $1.19/sqft before shipping. After shipping, you're looking at ~$2.50/sqft.

So, if you ordered EVA, you would still be paying about the same price as you would be for the MC, so I would recommend going with the MC from the aforementioned supplier. The MC routes better, is softer on the edge while still being 4# on the face, so you don't freak out weapons checkers, and the foam lasts longer, is more consistent, and comes in longer sheets, so it's easier to work with (though a bit harder to store, if you're living in a studio!).

If I didn't answer all of your questions there, please post again!

Cheers,

Thurat

*: In case you didn't catch it in there, I'm going to order my 4# MC from foamforyou.com. Specifically, I'm using (and Alric uses) this foam here.
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Tue Mar 26, 2013 6:42 pm

So, I got Cross-linked-polyethylene from this place. It was probably 2LB.
http://www.thefoamfactory.com/closedcel ... -foam.html


Just to confirm your suggestions -- you would recommend using Gold's Puzzle Mat for my box, and the 2LB MC for the blade.
Go the routing method if I have a router, or traditional box if I don't.

That about sum it up? Any major changes you would recommend considering my MC is 3/8 instead of 1/2?
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:05 pm

It has been my experience that you need, on a blue weapon, at least 1" of MC to make it pass for hit. As well, MC is peculiar compared to PE in that it doesn't have a "skin" on the outside of it. This means that it is more apt to tearing under stress, and tearing when catching sharp projections. This can be remedied by applying packing tape (with either length-wise fibers, or none) to the blade, but not extending down the sides of it.

Applying the tape to the blade is an art in itself. If I've read up on it right, you have to compress the foam and apply the tape, so that when it is released from pressure the tape will wrinkle, and not be tight on the foam, which can cause it to hit harder, and potentially fail.

To be sure that what you have is indeed MC, can you link a picture of it, or post one in this thread?
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra


Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Wed Mar 27, 2013 11:42 am

That looks like MC to me, though the pics are a bit fuzzy. You can tell if it is by checking that it has no visible bubbles, is extremely smooth, and tears easily, but I think you're good.

What I would do, if you're wanting to try a varying poundage/higher tech sword, is get yourself some puzzle mat, some ensolite (Gold's Gym yoga mat; some stadium cushions - not all are equal), and some good strapping tape.

These materials are some of the more recent advances in foamsmithing tech., and will suit you better than traditional methods. I had written up a ridiculously long post on the exact methods for using these materials, and some other building techniques that have developed with them, but then I realized that that was way too many words!

I think I need to make a video....

Anyway, there ya are. If you have any other questions on building technique or materials, please post again!

Cheers,

Thurat
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:09 pm

Based on your description, I'm pretty sure it's MC as well too. Sorry for the fuzzy pics.

I'll see about getting puzzle mat(Gold's Gym if I can find it, search online for 4# PE if I can't... or was 4#MC good for cores as well?) and ensolite (Yoga mat if I can find it, or this if I can't: http://www.sailrite.com/Foam-Closed-Cel ... nce=&atc=T ), the other materials should be trivial to get ahold of.

I'd read your ridiculously long post if you still had it saved, I'm not afraid of words! I really appreciate the time you've spent on helping me get up to date with the latest and greatest.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:15 pm

The 4# MC is good to use against the core; I don't know about PE.

I'll try and write up a coherent step-by step when I can. I'm wordy, so it's hard for me to quick and concise, sometimes.
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:16 pm

Also, it's my pleasure. The boards have been a wee-bit quiet lately, so I figure the least I can do is chip in, in lieu of more professional inputs.
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Wed Mar 27, 2013 12:23 pm

No worries about the time. I have what I need to get started, now it's mostly just semantics and more detailed information. :)

I have enough to go on, especially since I don't have a router (Yet. Maybe next paycheck) and will be likely doing a regular box for my next weapon.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Wed Mar 27, 2013 2:01 pm

This is far closer to me than Walmart, any idea if this is any good?
http://www.kmart.com/sunny-health-fitne ... ockType=G2
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:02 pm

Most puzzle mat is 4# EVA. That looks a bit more expensive than the Gold's (you get 6 pieces), but looks to be the same thing.
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Wed Mar 27, 2013 4:10 pm

Alright. That's what I just went out and got. Ordered some Ensolite online. Got what I need to be able to get started this afternoon though, so yay.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:48 pm

PS, puzzle mat being too short for a blade is frustrating.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Fayne » Thu Mar 28, 2013 1:19 am

You really only need the foam to be one solid pice on the last third or so of the blade, and really only at the tip housing your biscuit and buffering your stab tip. To put it simply, cut the puzzle mat into strips (don't cut it diagonally, you'll get far more out of cutting aligned with the edges) and then simply put the core tip in the middle of one of these strips, then run the sides of the foam down the core. Then fill in the rest of the blade part of your sword with more strips until you're satisfied with blade length, and voila. You're done!

Image
The measure of a man can be seen in the quality of his words.
User avatar
Fayne
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:54 am
Location: Columbia, MO
Started Fighting: 01 Aug 2004
Realm: Stonewater Marches
Unit: The Order
Favorite Fighting Styles: 56" Red sword

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Thu Mar 28, 2013 4:06 pm

Yep, what he said. Just patch in pieces at the handle end, and you should be fine.
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:04 pm

I'm just doing it in patches, yeah. To clarify though, right now I'm not routing it... so I don't wrap it over the tip, I do traditional box.

Any thoughts on applying a cross-guard, and sword balancing? I've done balancing with a hollow core where you put in weights on the inside, but never with a solid core.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Celtic Christ » Thu Mar 28, 2013 10:24 pm

For weighting I usually wrap solder around the handle. It'll give it a nice sense of balance, keeps the metal in a safe area, and gives a nice texture to the handle.
User avatar
Celtic Christ
Underling
Underling
 
Posts: 78
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2012 9:22 pm
Location: Jerome, ID
Started Fighting: 0- 4-2007
Realm: Shannara
Favorite Fighting Styles: Spear

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Fayne » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:08 am

I've routed my end-over-end fries just fine. I seem to get more life out of a routed fry than a routed box. Natural foam bonds being more stable than glue bonds, and all.

That's not to say a box is invalid, but in my personal experience, my routed fries tend to last longer.
The measure of a man can be seen in the quality of his words.
User avatar
Fayne
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:54 am
Location: Columbia, MO
Started Fighting: 01 Aug 2004
Realm: Stonewater Marches
Unit: The Order
Favorite Fighting Styles: 56" Red sword

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Fayne » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:10 am

Also, for weight, any wire wrap is fine. Also look into the weights one adds to pinewood derby cars, easily available in any Hobby Lobby. They are cheap and come already shaped into a cylinder that's been cut in half!
The measure of a man can be seen in the quality of his words.
User avatar
Fayne
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:54 am
Location: Columbia, MO
Started Fighting: 01 Aug 2004
Realm: Stonewater Marches
Unit: The Order
Favorite Fighting Styles: 56" Red sword

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:11 am

Yes, but I don't have access to a router. Hence the not-as-good box.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Fri Mar 29, 2013 12:31 am

Also, where is the 'right' place for the balance to be on a sword?
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Fri Mar 29, 2013 9:49 am

It depends on what feels right to you. I like the balance of my swords to be 2-4" above my handle. Some people like the balance right where the handle meets the blade. In Dagorhir, they require you to have the balance in the blade, even if just barely, so if you intend to cross-game then that is something you should consider as well.

For my counterweights, I get the cold rolled steel bars from Lowe's or Ace Hardware, and then cut them into 2" segments, which weigh about .30 oz each. It gives me a nice oblong handle that feels comfortable to my grip.

You can also check out Arrakis' tutorial here. Make note of the space he leaves in between the weights. A solid length will leave a stress point at the end, and can cause your core to snap. One of my buddies snapped a fiberglass core clean at the end of the counterweights I had put on for him, so be cautious. I agree with the pine box derby weights, but the Hobby Lobby near me wants something around $6 for 2oz, so I don't know if I would call them "cheap".

If you prefer a square handle, and want to counterweight, get some of that steel I mentioned, and get some good 12-14oz leather, and put the leather on either side of the weights; makes a really cool feeling grip.
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Fayne » Fri Mar 29, 2013 8:12 pm

For two-handers, I like to go with what is realistically, historically weighted and length.

Longsword: measured from one shoulder to the opposite fingertips. Handle is about a hand and a half, or about the measurement of the tip of your shoulder to your neck.

Greatsword: measured from the hollow of the neck to the floor. The handle is from the hollow of the neck to the navel, or thereabout.

Glaive: measured from the floor to the tips of one's fingers when the arm is held straight up, plus a hand's breadth. The handle is about chest level to the floor (or as much as you can get away with without breaking the unpadded requirement rules)

Weighted, these swords were more focused on their "pivot points" rather than their balance. If holding a sword by the handle as close to the crossguard as possible, with the tip pointed to the ground, then move the sword back and forth, it should seem to pivot right on the tip. If held at the base of the pommel, it should seem to pivot at about 3/4 or so up the blade toward the tip. This is so when moving the longsword to block, the tip stays focused on the enemy, while when moving the longsword to attack, the weapon behaves like a weapon much lighter.

The concept of balance points is widely misunderstood by most people. The myth of a sword balancing right at the crossguard being chief among them. According to this swordsmith and history professor Peter Johnsson, it was actually the goal of the master craftsman to make the balance point as close to the tip as possible, while still maintaining the sword's control and efficiency of motion. In fact the pivot point was far more important than the balance point, and was exacted to the centimeter.

I myself have found when I feel a red doesn't behave the way I want it to, it isn't because the weapon balances poorly, it's because the forward pivot point is too far forward, most of the time several inches forward of the tip. In my own construction, I will often move my pivot points only centimeters at a time to get the exact feel I want.

Here's the video for reference. The whole lecture is extremely informative, but at 49:00 is when he begins to talk about balance and pivot points, what he calls collectively, rotational interial mechanics.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/23590865

For a one handed sword, the forward pivot point would be closer toward the half to 3/4 of the sword, going toward the tip, and was often different among different applications of battle tactics and swordsmen. The closer to the hilt the rear pivot point is, the better.

Good stuff from Mr. Johnsson, he is both a warrior and an academic!
The measure of a man can be seen in the quality of his words.
User avatar
Fayne
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 1:54 am
Location: Columbia, MO
Started Fighting: 01 Aug 2004
Realm: Stonewater Marches
Unit: The Order
Favorite Fighting Styles: 56" Red sword

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Fri Mar 29, 2013 11:55 pm

Interesting concept; I'd never thought about how my weapon pivots in space, though it makes sense now that I think about it. I'll give that video a watch later.
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:38 pm

So, I'm working on balancing the blade now. The pivot point makes such a huge difference, it's amazing! Thank you for that information!

However, the reason my weapon isn't done yet is cutting steel bar stock is proving extremely difficult with a hacksaw. Or at least time consuming enough that I'm too lazy to get it all done at once, so I'm just cutting a couple pieces at a time.

Is there an easier alternative to cutting this steel?
Last edited by Vourn on Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:59 pm

I just use bolt cutters, or a cutoff wheel on a grinder or dremel. I don't know any other way to do it. The stuff I use is ~1/8 in diameter, so that's where all my experience lies.
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Mon Apr 01, 2013 11:24 pm

I went with some thicker stuff. 3/16'' and 1/4'', to try two different weights. Two 1/4'' bars, one on each side of the core, made for a very nicely sized oval handle. I opted to use my minor leatherworking skills to make a solid leather handle (With some texture to it so that it doesn't slip on your hand.), which made it just thick enough.

I've got the pivot point close to where I need it, but not quite. It's gonna take probably a total 2 feet of the 1/4'' steel stock to get it where I want. Or close to that much at least.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Tue Apr 02, 2013 12:08 pm

Vourn,

What is the length of the two 1/4" bars on the sides of your handle? Are the pieces solid, or composed of several, smaller pieces?

I don't know if you caught it in my earlier post, but make sure that you don't have the weights pushed right up to the blade, and that they have a bit of space in between each other as well. If they are continuous, there will be stress points at the ends, especially where the blade and counterweights meet. The force put on these points can snap a core really quick, even a good fiberglass core.

-Thurat-
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Tue Apr 02, 2013 7:38 pm

I appreciate the reminder Thurat -- I can't remember the exact length of the bars in my handle (And the leather is currently quite too secure to check.), but I made sure there was space inbetween each other, as well as the blade.
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Vourn » Sun Apr 07, 2013 4:12 pm

Hi again guys.

My sword got finished finally, and I'm on my next project. A (short) Glaive. It's a little bit taller than I am, but not by much.

When I made my last Glaive, it was suggested to me to do a double box. Is that still standard on long choppy weapons, or do I only need a single box these days?
Vourn
Recruit
Recruit
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:49 pm

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Anastasia » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:33 pm

I see many single box reds passing now in my area, but we are using denser foam for that core layer as they mentioned above. Also, go ahead and PM me if you want any info on fighting in California. I don't know where you are, but there is a lot going on both in Nor Cal or So Cal (where I am). We'd love to get you acquainted with people in the community since we all go to events together. California also has a strong Facebook presence. That is probably the fastest way to get specialty foam contacts - Try the group "California Foam Fighters"
Cofounder and Marshal of Andúril
Cofounder Battle for the Ring
Order of the Shining Tower
Order of the Western Flame

See you at Battle for the Ring in January www.battleforthering.com
User avatar
Sir Anastasia
Grizzled Veteran
Grizzled Veteran
 
Posts: 2180
Joined: Sun Sep 25, 2005 3:27 pm
Location: Irvine, CA
Started Fighting: 31 Aug 2001
Realm: Marshal of Anduril
Unit: Wardens
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword & Board, Extreme Taunting

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby LoganSteele » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:47 am

" For a routed 4# box, you would just use a single layer of 1/2" thick 4#, routed to half the thickness of your core. I give my routed layers a 1/2" on either side of the channel, so the routed fry (the term for a length of foam; don't ask me why) would be 1 1/2" wide. You would then "sandwich" the core into that fry. Ta-da: routed box. "

When i visualise this i see a seam running up the side and over the top of the core. If routed well this seam would be cemented together and would not have a gap however i do see potential for a blow out there. should this "seam" run up the flat or be "concealed" under the blade layers?
Ambassador for Desert Wind Thane of Fenrirs Kin

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
LoganSteele
Grunt
Grunt
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Desert Wind
Started Fighting: 03 Oct 2009
Realm: Desert Wind
Unit: Fenrirs Kin
Favorite Fighting Styles: reds - Javalin

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Kyrian » Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:23 pm

LoganSteele wrote:" For a routed 4# box, you would just use a single layer of 1/2" thick 4#, routed to half the thickness of your core. I give my routed layers a 1/2" on either side of the channel, so the routed fry (the term for a length of foam; don't ask me why) would be 1 1/2" wide. You would then "sandwich" the core into that fry. Ta-da: routed box. "

When i visualise this i see a seam running up the side and over the top of the core. If routed well this seam would be cemented together and would not have a gap however i do see potential for a blow out there. should this "seam" run up the flat or be "concealed" under the blade layers?


It's called a fry since the Forged Foam reblade kit consists of several layers of foam glued together with an almost-square cross-section. From a distance, it looks like a giant French fry.
"...change requires action, it doesn't just happen. Define your actions by how you think the game should be, not how the game is. The game will follow."--Big Jimmy
User avatar
Kyrian
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:52 pm
Location: Chino Hills, CA
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1991
Realm: Andor
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and board
florentine
archery
Pronouns: he/him

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Matthias - Dun Abhon » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:26 pm

LoganSteele wrote:" For a routed 4# box, you would just use a single layer of 1/2" thick 4#, routed to half the thickness of your core. I give my routed layers a 1/2" on either side of the channel, so the routed fry (the term for a length of foam; don't ask me why) would be 1 1/2" wide. You would then "sandwich" the core into that fry. Ta-da: routed box. "

When i visualise this i see a seam running up the side and over the top of the core. If routed well this seam would be cemented together and would not have a gap however i do see potential for a blow out there. should this "seam" run up the flat or be "concealed" under the blade layers?

If using a routed box, then there will be a seam running along the flats of the blade. The blade would be built normally on top of that box, which means there would be no seam in the blade itself, except for that box.

As for the Forged Foam reblade kits, this is what you'd be looking at: http://www.edhellen.com/mm5/merchant.mv ... =kits-mats

One of the biggest problems a lot of people have with those reblade kits is the toothed section at the tip of the sword blowing out, and while I've had that happen to me, it always took a while.
Matthias - Dun Abhon
Toadie
Toadie
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:47 am
Location: Louisville, KY
Started Fighting: 21 May 2006
Realm: Dun Abhon
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and medium round punch shield

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Kyrian » Mon Apr 08, 2013 4:40 pm

Matthias - Dun Abhon wrote:One of the biggest problems a lot of people have with those reblade kits is the toothed section at the tip of the sword blowing out, and while I've had that happen to me, it always took a while.


Were they biscuiting the tip? I've found that to be one of the key steps in preventing that from happening.

An example of how to biscuit is here in the first few pictures: https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151342949669598.490688.502014597&type=1&l=b354046dcf
"...change requires action, it doesn't just happen. Define your actions by how you think the game should be, not how the game is. The game will follow."--Big Jimmy
User avatar
Kyrian
Hero
Hero
 
Posts: 1528
Joined: Sat Apr 19, 2003 10:52 pm
Location: Chino Hills, CA
Started Fighting: 0- 8-1991
Realm: Andor
Unit: Clan of the Hydra
Favorite Fighting Styles: sword and board
florentine
archery
Pronouns: he/him

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Matthias - Dun Abhon » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:52 pm

Kyrian wrote:Were they biscuiting the tip? I've found that to be one of the key steps in preventing that from happening.

As far as I know, yes. They weren't all reblade kits, though; a number of them were whole swords bought from Edhellen/Forged Foam. I biscuit my tips, and the flats on the tip are the first place all my fry reblades fail.
Matthias - Dun Abhon
Toadie
Toadie
 
Posts: 144
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2007 11:47 am
Location: Louisville, KY
Started Fighting: 21 May 2006
Realm: Dun Abhon
Favorite Fighting Styles: Sword and medium round punch shield

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby LoganSteele » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:25 am

I see how it is done now. I definatally had another idea in my head on how to apply the box core. I imagine there would still be tip blow outs from the side however as there is a seam there. I think our tech has room to improve but i have not thought of anything yet. if i come up with something ill ru it by you guys. The thread posted recently regarding a casted foam core is an interesting idea but probubly not possible for your average foam smither. When i have a sword fail it is often due to tip blow out of the side. ( i have some swords last 2-3 years i just like to always improve on design).
Ambassador for Desert Wind Thane of Fenrirs Kin

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
LoganSteele
Grunt
Grunt
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Desert Wind
Started Fighting: 03 Oct 2009
Realm: Desert Wind
Unit: Fenrirs Kin
Favorite Fighting Styles: reds - Javalin

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby Sir Thurat » Tue Apr 09, 2013 2:28 pm

The seam on the side is not as big of an issue as you think. MC and EVA such up DAP like it's nobodies' business, so an improperly DAPed box will have troubles with detachment, but a well glued box is practically fused together. I've had boxes, when I first started using 4# EVA and MC, fall apart immediately after DAPing because I applied to lightly, but otherwise it's solid.

At least, that is my experience with it.

-Thurat-
Realm of Carthage War Council Representative
Knight of Oldcastle
Realm Map Curator
Master Seneschal
User avatar
Sir Thurat
Skull Crusher
Skull Crusher
 
Posts: 1205
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2006 7:21 pm
Location: Carbondale, IL
Started Fighting: 02 Apr 2006
Realm: Carthage
Unit: Clan of the Hydra

Re: Questions On Current Tech (Mostly stabbing tips)

Postby LoganSteele » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:52 pm

Fayne wrote:For two-handers, I like to go with what is realistically, historically weighted and length.

Longsword: measured from one shoulder to the opposite fingertips. Handle is about a hand and a half, or about the measurement of the tip of your shoulder to your neck.

Greatsword: measured from the hollow of the neck to the floor. The handle is from the hollow of the neck to the navel, or thereabout.

Glaive: measured from the floor to the tips of one's fingers when the arm is held straight up, plus a hand's breadth. The handle is about chest level to the floor (or as much as you can get away with without breaking the unpadded requirement rules)

Weighted, these swords were more focused on their "pivot points" rather than their balance. If holding a sword by the handle as close to the crossguard as possible, with the tip pointed to the ground, then move the sword back and forth, it should seem to pivot right on the tip. If held at the base of the pommel, it should seem to pivot at about 3/4 or so up the blade toward the tip. This is so when moving the longsword to block, the tip stays focused on the enemy, while when moving the longsword to attack, the weapon behaves like a weapon much lighter.

The concept of balance points is widely misunderstood by most people. The myth of a sword balancing right at the crossguard being chief among them. According to this swordsmith and history professor Peter Johnsson, it was actually the goal of the master craftsman to make the balance point as close to the tip as possible, while still maintaining the sword's control and efficiency of motion. In fact the pivot point was far more important than the balance point, and was exacted to the centimeter.

I myself have found when I feel a red doesn't behave the way I want it to, it isn't because the weapon balances poorly, it's because the forward pivot point is too far forward, most of the time several inches forward of the tip. In my own construction, I will often move my pivot points only centimeters at a time to get the exact feel I want.

Here's the video for reference. The whole lecture is extremely informative, but at 49:00 is when he begins to talk about balance and pivot points, what he calls collectively, rotational interial mechanics.

http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/23590865

For a one handed sword, the forward pivot point would be closer toward the half to 3/4 of the sword, going toward the tip, and was often different among different applications of battle tactics and swordsmen. The closer to the hilt the rear pivot point is, the better.

Good stuff from Mr. Johnsson, he is both a warrior and an academic!


amazing video! I may be replacing everytrhing!
Ambassador for Desert Wind Thane of Fenrirs Kin

"Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both." Benjamin Franklin
User avatar
LoganSteele
Grunt
Grunt
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:55 am
Location: Desert Wind
Started Fighting: 03 Oct 2009
Realm: Desert Wind
Unit: Fenrirs Kin
Favorite Fighting Styles: reds - Javalin


Return to Foam Smithing

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests