Fiberglass and pvc

[blayzer13]

I have a quick question about the difference between fiberglass cored blues and pvc cored blues. I have made innumerable pvc blues and just a few fiberglass.

I host my own events and provide and maintain all equipment for anyone who shows up (enough gear to equip 30+ people). As a result, within my 1h blues, I have a healthy mix of different lengths of both pvc and fiberglass swords.

An issue that has been coming up with my blue users is that the fiberglass swords do not have the weight to successfully parry a strong strike from anyone using a pvc sword. The poor speedy fiberglass guys just have their strikes batted away or their deflections hit to the side.

I use regular 1/2" or 3/4" pvc for my blues and use 3/8" fiberglass for my fiberglass swords. In my most recent constructions I tried using a single fiberglass core to make them as fast as possible yet I had the weight issue that I mentioned above. Am I building them wrong or something?

I tried to provide a link to the fiberglass rods I buy but it seems I cant find it. They are gray, 3/8" solid rods that come in 48" sections that I obviously trim to desired lengths.

[Gronox]

Could try to double core the fiberglass but that won't affect the weight all too much more, though from experience, using a fiberglass core over pvc (for myself at least) hasn't made much difference in striking speed.

[Sir Thurat]

Blayzer: Each core that you describe has its own inherent Pros and Cons:

3/8th

Pros:

• Light
• More durable than PVC
• Cheaper than greater diameter fiberglass (FG)
• Readily available
• Fast to wield

Cons

• Can be difficult to make weapons make weight
• Smaller surface area means foam has less to grab to, and thus core detachment from the blade is a common issue
• Only good for cutting the core up to 28-29"; any longer and the weapon will fail for flex quickly, or straight out.

PVC

Pros

• Cheap
• Readily available
• Larger diameters easier to obtain than in FG
  
  Cons
• Heavier than FG of similar dimensions
• Can be difficult to obtain SCH80 (gray PVC; best to use)
• Doesn't last as long (core breaking common)
• Core can only be cut ~30"; any longer risks failing for flex quickly, or straight out.

With the 3/8th, you can counteract the weight issue by counterweighting properly, and you can avoid the core detachment issue by using a routed 4# box on the core. If you don't have access to the routed 4# boxes, I would advise not using the 3/8th FG. Yeah, it will last longer than the PVC in term of core life, but if you can't get good adhesion, and you keep tearing foam, then are you really saving money? As for double coring 3/8th, don't do it. A 3/8th core costs ~$1.29. Two of them costs ~$2.60. Assuming an 8% tax, that comes to ~$2.79. Throw in the cost of epoxy (or other binding adhesive) and tape for binding the cores together, and you're looking at well over $3 a core. If you order online, with tax and shipping, you can get a 30" piece of 1/2 FG for ~$2.15; Double coring is high maintenance, the weapons usually hit much harder, and need more padding, and are a mess to make. If you have to money to invest in that, skip it and go straight to solid round fiberglass.

As for PVC, seek out the gray, SCH80 PVC; I don't know what stores do or do not carry it. If you can't find that, then seek out SCH40 PVC. It's white, and is thick walled. If you're working on a low budget, and don't have access to better materials, then you may best off with your PVC weapon construction for now. Really, the best way to get yourself out of a rut like that is to stop making so many loaner weapons. At some point, interested members need to get their own equipment. You can make this happen by hosting a build day: take members with you to get materials so you can show them what to buy, and then meet up somewhere and show them how to build their own weapons.


Now, getting past all of that, a few basic questions:

-How long have you been fighting/building?
-Where are you located? Do you have an established group within reasonable distance?
-What materials are you using in your construction?
-What instructions/tutorials/methods are you using in your builds?

This can help me point you towards better materials and methods, or help you get in contact with an experienced foam smith from a local realm. Typically, if you can show there are enough people interested, you can get someone that's experienced to come host a build day with you (or you can travel to them individually or as a group to learn), and having somewhere there to show you, rather than explain it over the web, is much more efficient, and effective.

-Thurat-

[blayzer13]

My issue isn't necessarily with the construction of the swords themselves, I use the build guides on the wiki. The problem I'm having is in actual combat itself where as it seems that the people that use the fiberglass are at a distinct disadvantage to those with pvc when it comes to parrying and blocking due to a significant gap in weight between swords made of different materials.

[Aimish]

For blues, the difference in weight between a fiberglass core and a pvc core shouldn't be enough to make blocking with one or the other harder; it all comes down to mechanics. How are you guys blocking? One of the best ways is to catch the strike just a few inches above the handle with your elbow bent to around 90 degrees.

The first video here has a lot of good advice concerning blocking, as well as many other aspects of fighting.

http://www.belegarth.com/media.php?link=instructional

As for the wiki, a lot of the build guides are outdated. Most of it is safe (For the love of god, don't build the glaive though), but very little is actually good construction.

You'll want to try and find an active realm near you and go to visit. They'll probably have plenty of knowledge to help with both blocking and construction.

[Sir Thurat]

Aimish: They're using 3/8th round fiberglass. Compared to 1/2" PVC (which has an outer diameter of 3/4") the weight difference is significant. However, I agree that it's about how you block.

Blayzer: Check out the Fighter Skill and Development board. There is a resources thread there that has tons of videos on proper mechanics and technique; that is where good blocking comes from, not from weight.

[blayzer13]

Thanks for the advice and info. As for location, we are in southwestern New Hampshire so there and last time I looked there wasn't really anything within a 4 hour driving distance to us.

I'll have to try out blocking like that so that I can teach everyone else how to do it. I'm the blind leader leading the blind way out here in our unofficial realm.

[LoganSteele]

I enjoy the beifits of having having both heavy and light equiptment. I need to watch that video (sounds like how ive been taught to block but perhaps not). however when weilding heavy equiptment i keep in mind it is slow but i can bat away and blast through lighter equptment. I feel thats the advantage to heavier stuff as well as the benifit of a stronger work out.

When i select my lighter equiptment i use it against other light equiptment and if i come accross heavier stuff i try to emply the whole try not to be there technigue more then trying to block. I also try to guide a strike away instead of just stopping the strike.

This is some stuff ive been taught by vets and have learned through time.

[Sir Anastasia]

I just want to say I love what Thurat wrote on the cores and I think that everything there is correct. You won't get many fair appraisals on PVC, but he explains it exactly how I use it. I have also found that blocking is easier with PVC (not sure if weight or distribution or what). I can tell you that 0.5" Fiberglass cores for swords are what I use for my loaner gear (80+ weapons,) and I really like this core. It can be used for min reds; it has never broken in 6 years when used for blues of any length; it is under weight at 30" but not too difficult to bump up to weight. I would wager a pro could use it to get a 34" total length sword at 12 oz if they wanted something that light. Maybe try some of these and see if you think they block better?

I have a sneaking suspicion that lower weights lets you strike faster (and block less well), but nothing to really support that. A lot of the PVC vets in our realm do think they block better, but we have used that old tech for so many years, it really feels like home to us. We seem to disarm people more when they use lighter weapons (like the swords bounce out of their hands or something). Most of us think the fiberglass (when lighter) strikes faster. Maybe I will pull out my PVC weapons and let you know how they do against an all fiber field.

[Sir Thurat]

The weight of your weapon does not necessarily dictate how well you block. Look at Peter the Quick, for example; he uses a speed bat. Likely, that weapon is a .524 Kitespar core with a 4# box and a Volara wrap or some similarly light blade foam, and comes in somewhere around 12oz. Having fought him numerous times with my clunky 16oz swords, I can tell you that he has no trouble blocking my shots; same with Sir Bo.

They don't have difficulty blocking heavier weapons because they understand shot mechanics, and utilize deflection and block placement to their advantage.

Not to nae-say: I just don't want you guys to get hung up on weight being a determining factor in your builds, due to the misconception that it is necessary to effectively block. Also, thanks for the compliment, Ana; I do my best to answer thoroughly.

-Thurat-

[Kyrian]

While weight can have an impact on blocking effectiveness, I tend to use fairly light swords, around the 12-13 oz. range and generally don't have too many issues with blocking. How are you guys blocking? Are you using the bottom third, called the forte (strong in Italian), the middle third (mezzo), or the top third (foible) when blocking? Based on the physics of a weapon (think of it as a very long lever arm), blocking with the top of the weapon is going to be less effective, i.e., it will be much easier for your opponent to blow through your block. If you block with the lower third which is much closer to your hand and incorporate body mechanics, i.e., using your hips for blocking by twisting towards the block, it tends to be much harder for your opponent's shot to go through your block.

Here's an image that illustrates what I'm describing:



Because of the longer arm at the tip of the weapon, it takes far less effort to cause the blade to move than at the bottom of the blade.

[Sir Anastasia]

I like to block with the bottom 1/3 if I can and when I er it's a punch block if I'm not fast enough. I don't know if distribution is what I notice, but I can say my PVC swords are 28" total length and my fiber glass is 33" total length. I find the PVC to be the preferred weapon for blocking. The swords weigh in the 12-14 oz range (some have fancy leather handles). Once again though I think the emphasis on mechanics is probably a very important matter. Another thing to keep in mind is perception; if I think something is better, that can be its own self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Tordek]

Its the weight distribution of the PVC that gives it the difference in feel. Basically the CB is further up the blade on PVC cored weapons, and it goes back to the F=mA and torque moment equations. Since more of the weight is at the blocking point, it takes proportionally more effort to move it. When the fiberglass blades are weighted up to pass weight, it all goes into the handle, bringing the CB closer to the "cross guard"

That being said, proper blocking with fiberglass should stop shots just fine, I use fiberglass exclusively for long term weapons, and I can block reds all day long with it, no problem, when using proper form. It is the wild or weak parries that the PVC makes the biggest difference. All this being said there is probably a marginal difference in feel vs fiberglass for proper parries. I suspect this might come mostly from the rope wrapped handles on the fiberglass, which will have much more give than tape wrapped pvc when put under load.