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 Post subject: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Sun Apr 19, 2015 11:20 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
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Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
I'm currently trying to build a minimum red, and I can't seem to get the weight low enough for my body type. I'm basing it on 11/16" round fiberglass, but that's already 20 oz. I'm reluctant to use 1/2" round fiberglass on something this long, and I can't seem to find any other suitable material for the core that isn't an absurd amount of money for something I'll have broken on me in six months. I calculated that I should have to add about 12 oz to build it using a kit from Alric plus a counter-weight, so does anyone know a lighter method and/or a lighter core that isn't expensive? Any information I've found send me to things that are either no longer extant or ~$70 due to minimum purchase amount.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:03 am 
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I would work harder at getting the balance point correct with 11/16". 1/2" fiberglass will probably fail for flex at 48", or will after a few months of use if it doesn't initially.

You may also want to look in to shaved or square fiberglass.

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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 1:54 am 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
The plan I sketched has a balance point 5" ahead of the end of the 12" handle, which is pretty standard for a sword this size IRL if nothing else. It would have a 13" long ricasso so I can short grip it.

I'd love to use square fiberglass but that falls into the stuff mentioned above; it's either no longer available or it requires me to purchase a whole ton of it because it's not a stock item. I've heard square 1/2" is great but for the life of me I can't find it for anything less than ~$70 which is ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 7:50 am 
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We have some new cores that you might be interested in. Specifically, a new 3/4" diameter hollow tube we're calling PowerTube.75. I've included a chart of linear densities below for weight-comparison purposes. Flex at 4' is fine on these cores, in fact we think they might be good up to about 5'-6" before flex becomes an issue. We have no data yet on how durable these cores will be, as we just got them a few days ago. However, we have very high expectations as the wall thickness is good and they seem quite sturdy. If you would like to purchase one, send us a PM on here, or an e-mail to sales@foametheus.com.

One interesting point to pay attention to: look at the linear densities of 11/16" versus bandshoppe. 11/16" is the densest core we use, by almost 15%, but you can only go to about 5'-6" with it because the extra weight makes it flex more without providing much extra stiffness.

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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Mon Apr 20, 2015 8:10 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
Before I fly off the handle about this do you guys even think its possible to build a red ~54" that weighs less than 31 oz and still has a balance point 18" from the pommel? I know there are reds this length around 28 oz but as far as I know they don't have balance like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:15 am 
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The lightest cores out there are some ultra-light carbon-fiber cores. They are somewhat fragile, and cost close to $100 each (maybe a bit more, with shipping). You would have to add weight to them in order to get them to meet minimum weight for a 54" core. But, I think that the 18" balance point is impossible, even with one of these cores.

You'd have to get the sword itself (without counterweight) to balance at it's center and weigh 20oz. Then your counterweights totaling 10 oz would have to be no further than 1" from the bottom point of the pommel, and that would give you an 18 1/3" balance point for a 30 oz. total weapon. Such a weapon would be very expensive and very fragile, and you also would not be able to actually put 10oz. in the pommel, it would probably have to go on the handle, which would move the balance point up further.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 7:48 am 
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timff8 wrote:
Before I fly off the handle about this do you guys even think its possible to build a red ~54" that weighs less than 31 oz and still has a balance point 18" from the pommel? I know there are reds this length around 28 oz but as far as I know they don't have balance like that.


I can make that on half inch square stock fiberglass... You should be fine. Honestly I don't make that because that puts the weight in my top hand.. which just fights akwardly(and fails at some events i go to)


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Tue Apr 21, 2015 4:36 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
Okay so I've been looking around and finding something I can use is so far very hard. I've been on the Brotherhood of Red page and been told with certainty that 11/16" is too rigid at 52" and I should stop immediately. Given that I think I'm going to have to go with Foametheus' powertube-thingie (0.75" hollow fiberglass). Basic physics knowledge tells me it should be stronger than 1/2" solid, which passes okay at 48".
Varadin I'd love to get my hands on that square stock but can't get it; Gorg et all that use it have to buy it in industrial quantities that I can't afford. Every supplier I've talked to either won't do square stock that thin or requires a large purchase amount I simply can't deal with. The same goes for 5/8" round fiberglass, really. If you can tell me where to get it, or are willing to sell me some please let me know immediately!


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 10:09 am 
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We just finished a prototype mini-glaive on PowerTube.75. It's 66" long, and the flex is fine. The only caveat is we don't know how durable it will be in the long run, since we literally just finished the first weapon ever built on it (that we're aware of).

timff8, if you buy a stick of the PowerTube.75, would you mind if I threw in a stick of the .50 with the shipment as well? I want to get data on it's durability too. Make something and have the hardest hitter you know try to break it.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Wed Apr 22, 2015 11:04 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
Honestly Foametheus I'm looking at this again and I think I'm going to have to decline your product; it's a bit new and I'm a bit too poor I think once I include shipping. I hope it works out well though when you get some testing data.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:55 pm 
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Is there such thing as 5/8" round fiberglass anymore?

Last I knew, that is what someone is supposed to use for a ~54 redsword. That was years ago though, and I haven't used the 5/8" core I bought yet to know how well it works.

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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Thu Apr 23, 2015 11:40 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
It's devilishly hard to find I discovered but you can get it, which up until yesterday I was unable to do. Most places I looked at go straight from 1/2" rods to 3/4" or 2/3" rods, even at suppliers like Grainger. Max-Gain Systems is the only place I could find 5/8" at, and they weren't willing to do a custom length so I guess I have a min-red (well it will probably be 51" eventually) in the works now.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 7:00 am 
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Farm and Fleet in the northern midwest sells 11/16" round fiberglass, and I successfully made a 54" red sword on that. It hit a bit stiff, but I was using blue foam so that was kind of expected. It was pretty darn heavy for the length though, but 1/2" round just wouldn't have worked and 1/2" square is too hard to come by.

5/8" (10/16") should act similarly.

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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Fri Apr 24, 2015 11:31 pm 
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I made a 49.5" minred. 26oz and the balance point is almost exactly 18" from the end of the pommel.

I used .602 kitespar from Warlord sports and a couple of duratubes to make an Omni greatsword.

To drastically weight the pommel I used tent spikes/large nails. You can buy them at Home Depot. They are huge 6+" nails that are more like spikes.

I wrapped duck tape around it to secure them into the hollow core then built my pommel overtop of them. The head of the nail will stop it from sliding down and your pommel + tape will stop it from coming out.

Kitespar may not be your thing. It works great for me, but I know some who say they break it all the time. But other than being a solid core it meets all your other requirements. And I really enjoy the low balance point. Makes it really fast and maneuverable compared to most other reds I have tried.

Here is the link to the warlord sports weapon I based it on.
http://www.warlordsports.com/omniblade-greatsword

Hope that helps.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Sat Apr 25, 2015 12:09 am 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
* Thurat I was going to use 11/16" but I was told by members of the Brotherhood of the Red Facebook group that it would as you said hit too stiffly.

* I tend to secure weights and rope with hot glue so they don't go anywhere on me. Weights for pinewood derby cars are what I generally use though getting them to stick to a round core can be hard; I may have to pick up some tent spikes.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Mon Apr 27, 2015 10:39 pm 
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Here it an example of the nail spike. They come in varying lengths from 6-12"

http://www.homedepot.com/p/Grip-Rite-3- ... /100137523

They fit well into hollow kitespar and create a nice counterbalance.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Tue Apr 28, 2015 4:36 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
Oh wow judging from the package it looks like they weigh 4.85 oz each. Or is that way off? (50 lbs divided by 165 nails)


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Wed Apr 29, 2015 11:36 pm 
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There are different sizes and thicknesses. Also some are made of lighter or heavier metal I believe. The one I used was taken from one of those 10'x10' pop up canopies to hold it down in the wind. When I got more for my newer weapons I considered bringing my scale in with me, but they were so cheap I just got a bunch of different sizes so I could get the best weight.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Fri May 01, 2015 8:21 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
Did you remove the heads from them when attaching them to the handle or cover them with padding?


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 10:30 am 
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Nope. The heads stop them from sliding farther into the core. I didn't really want a piece of metal go get loose inside the core and start sliding back and forth.

Once the spike was secure I taped the head down to the core and added padding as I made my pommel.


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 Post subject: Re: Making Light Reds
PostPosted: Sat May 02, 2015 7:36 pm 
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Location: Minneapolis or Chicagoland
Started Fighting: 15 Aug 2014
Realm: Frozen North
Unit: British long ton
Favorite Fighting Styles: small reds and buckler; FloREDtine
Oh sorry yeah I forgot you were using a hollow core my bad. Yeah that makes sense in that context.


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