England circa 878 ad

[Forkbeard]

I need to know as ,uch as I can learn about the end of the 9th century in Briton. I'm makeing a complete garb and armour kit for a movie being filmed here in Utah. They want us in period garb and I have been meaning to make something period for a while anyway, so the is a good excuse to get to work on it.
Eoric, what is the name of the Living History group your with? I'd like to check them out.
FB

[Winfang]

I believe that he's a member of this group.

http://www.regia.org/

Here is their basic clothing section. Kick * resource.

http://members.regia.org/basclot.htm

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Hi Forkbeard. I saw your post on the Armour Archive on this subject, but I figured I'd post a reply here instead.

I am indeed a member of Regia Anglorum, and IMO they have excellent resources for clothing and armour of the late Anglo-Saxon period in England.

In addition to Regia's website, I would also recommend this website from Angelcynn, another English group with an earlier focus than Regia's:

http://mahan.wonkwang.ac.kr/link/med/en ... dress.html

Also, THe Vikings NFPS in England have some good info on the subject of Saxon dress and war-gear:

http://www.vikingsonline.org.uk/resourc ... /index.htm

In a nutshell, here are the basics as far as what I believe you should wear:

Undertunic - long sleeved; made of linen
Tunic - long sleeved, knee length, gores at the sides (for roominess below the waist); made of wool
Trousers - full-length, somewhat tight; made of wool
Winingas - cloth wrapped around the leg below the knee; made of wool
Belt - no more than 1" wide, and with a decorative buckle, buckle-plate, and strap-end; made of leather and copper-alloy or silver - and no long, dangling end!!!
Shoes - turnshoes that come up no further than the ankle; made of leather
Cloak - half-circle or rectangular, pinned with a round brooch (not a penannular); the cloak would be thick, woven wool, or (more rarely) could be made of sheepskin (wool worn to the inside)

Here is a website with specific info on winingas: http://www.geocities.com/baldurstrand/w ... ingas.html

As far as what fabrics, weaves, and colors are appropriate based on your rank, I would use the color guide on the second link that Winfang provided.

If you'd like links to reputable merchants for purchasing some items, let me know. Some things are more of a pain to make than to buy (like appropriate turnshoes, cloak-pins, belt hardware, etc.).

As far as war-gear, you probably want to go with a round shield w/boss, spear, seax, and (if you're high-ranking) a sword. You might use an axe, too, especially if the character you're portraying has any Danish ancestry (which was pretty common in some places/times in Angle-land). Your armour would consist of a mail-shirt (short-sleeves, and to the knees) and a spangenhelm. The English had some really cool helmets a few centuries earlier (like the Coppergate and Sutton Hoo helmets), but I believe the style was more simple by the end of the ninth century

[TheGryphon]

http://moas.atlantia.sca.org/topics/clot.htm
I know...I know...It's from the SCA. But it's got some excellent sources for garb. And, yes, I also know that some of the links are dead. Just trying to help out.

Shiru

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Oh, I just realized I meant to say one more thing about winingas:

If you just want to buy some, look for "puttees" on e-Bay or websites for World War I reenactment suppliers. Different name, but the soldiers in WWI (from England, Japan, France, and Germany, at least) were wearing strips wound around their lower legs that were remarkably similar to winingas. Most of the ones you can find these days would be fine--they should be made of wool, either tabby-woven or chevron/herringbone, and in light blue, grey, or khaki/tan. Most are probably about 3" wide, and quite long (mine are about 9').

[Forkbeard]

Thank you all. You've been quite a bit more helpfull than anyone else. And they say us foam fighters don't know about this ****. Ha!
Eoric, can you post a picture of you in your garb? Or if you don't wear this type, can you get me a full length pic of some one wearing about what I need? I love all the desciptions and period drawings of what I'm suposed to look like, but a full body pic would really help. Being able to look and compare will make it easy for me.
What "period looing" cheap replacments can I make for wool and linen. I am making my stuff authentic, but they need tons of garb for extras in a couple big battles and it needs to cheap to make. I would also like these cheap knockoffs for garb for new fighters in my realm after this is all over. Extra garb never hurts.
FB

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Well, to be fair, it wasn't in a "foam-fighting" setting that I learned about all of this stuff.

As far as substitutes for wool and linen, I'm not sure what would be best. What do you consider cheap?

Anyhow, I can probably find some good pics of guys in Saxon-style clothing and armour (including myself). I'll try to find a half-dozen good ones and post them here before tomorrow.

[Matta]

www.fordham.edu/halsall/sbook.html

This is the Medieval Sourcebook It has great examples of everything!

www.mediaevalmisc.com/patterns.htm
here are some great patterns too.

Matta

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

OK, here are links to some pretty good pics of Saxon male clothing, including several examples of winingas. Some of the guys are in wargear as well.

http://image05.webshots.com/5/3/32/6/80 ... KiG_ph.jpg
http://image06.webshots.com/6/3/21/86/8 ... nSq_ph.jpg
http://image02.webshots.com/2/3/29/94/8 ... vCS_ph.jpg

I read that you're portraying a noble, so you should keep in mind that this would be evident by the quality of your "stuff." Your wool clothing would have nice, vivid colors, your linen undershirt would probably be a light off-white, you would be armed in a mail-shirt and helmet, you would have a sword (in addition to spear, seax, and/or axe), and your metal bits (belt furniture, cloak pin, pendants, etc.) would be either bronze or silver. A person of lower status would probably have more drab colored wool clothing, natural colored linen, no mail-shirt (and possibly no helmet), no sword, etc.

The patterns Matta linked to are fine, but if you make your own pants and/or tunics, there are several good patterns available online (i.e. they're free).

[Forkbeard]

Eoric, I'm "forbidden to veiw those picture on this srever". But thanks anyway.
FB

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Really? Hm. Can you open this link? http://community.webshots.com/user/doulgassunlin

The photos I tried to post are in this guy's folders--check out the Fort Mac 2003 pics.

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

I'll post links to a few other good photos as I see them.

Can you open these? click
click

Martin (the guy on the right) is wearing some good Saxon-style stuff. In particular, the round disc brooch on his cape and his winingas are worth a look.

This page has several good phtos of warriors. The huscarl (last photo toward the bottom) has gear that's too late in period for the film, but you get the idea...

[Forkbeard]

All those work. Thanks man. This is very helpful.
FB

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

No problem, and I'm glad the links work. I was beginning to feel like my message board skills were failing.

BTW, to be a bit more specific, if you visit this link:
http://community.webshots.com/user/doulgassunlin and go into the Fort Mac 2003 folder, the main photos that I recommend using for reference are "Aetheric" and "Conversations" and "Oswald."

[Forkbeard]

So, winnigas are just lengths of 3" wide cloth wrapped around the lower legs? Are these color specific? Can they have stuff on them? Like writing or sybols or something. The rest of this stuff is easy.
How do you make those shields? are they just plywood? Where can I get a shield boss? Are they hard to make?
More questions just keep on coming.
FB

[Winfang]

For shield bosses, you can look at SCA armoring sites for those. Here is the site where I got mine from.

http://www.mandrakearmory.com/Merchant2 ... ory_Code=S

A period nazi will give you **** because these are made on a lathe so there is are circler marks all over it. Period bosses where dished out with a good old-fashion hammer.

As for the shields:

Traditionally shields were made of linden (Lime) wood although other timbers may also have been used such as Alder and Poplar.

I've read that they had access to plywood (3ply), but I don't know what period had access to it. They where also usually between 30"-40", but smaller and larger existed.

Here is a helpful site with for the shield.
http://www.florilegium.org/files/COMBAT ... s-msg.html
Yes I know it's a SCA Usenet article. The thing is that more then Scadians post in there. Living History people have posted there as well. They've got some helpful tidbits on how to do rivets and contructing the shield.

All the pictures I've seen of the winnigas have been plain, contrasting color to the breeches.

[Forkbeard]

Right on, Fang. Thanks alot.
FB

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Yes, that's what winingas are in a nutshell. Look at pics of WWI soldiers from most nations involved, and you'll see puttees, which are basically the same thing, like this. And keep in mind that these aren't "cross-garters," with gaps like in this pic. They are wrapped with no gaps (which is why most are about 9 feet long). As for colors, if you want to be authentic, go for either natural, greys, or browns for lower class, or somewhat toned-down blues, reds, yellows, or purples for upper classes. And yes, I said purple--they've found lots of remains of leg wraps dyed to a light purple or fuchsia.

Oh, and I've never read of winingas (or wickelbander, the "viking" version") having any writing or anything else on them. Just plain wool cloth.

We make our shields out of plywood--usually 1/2". Period shields would have been either laminated (which is basically plywood) or made of planks.

Are the shield bosses hard to make? For me, yes, because I've only tried it once. Friends who are armourers can pound one out in no time. Here are two good sources for shield bosses (I've bought from both, and have been very happy):

http://www.bronzelion.com (a local friend of mine)
http://www.geocities.com/madmattsarmory ... osses.html

I've never bought from Mandrake (Winfang's source), but he is highly regarded by armourers. The one advantage to Bronze Lion or Mad Matt is that their bosses are hammer-raised, so you won't have the circular marks Winfang mentioned.

I'm not positive, but I think you can go with a round or pointy boss for a late 9th century Saxon shield. Though it's primarily about Viking shields, this website has some very useful info that might be worth your time. For what it's worth, I'm 5'10" and typically use a round shield that's about 33" diameter.

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Your armour would consist of a mail-shirt (short-sleeves, and to the knees) and a spangenhelm. The English had some really cool helmets a few centuries earlier (like the Coppergate and Sutton Hoo helmets), but I believe the style was more simple by the end of the ninth century

OK, I know it's goofy to quote myself, but...I need to amend my statement.

For the time that your movie is set, a Sutton Hoo style helmet is not right, but I have reason to believe that some Coppergate style helmets would still be in use. Here's one photo of this style, and here's another. Spangenhelms (like those worn in the photos I previously linked to) are still OK as well.

[Winfang]

I came across this guys photos for the Battle of Hastings reenacment. They're badass pictures. I know it's 11th century, but it doesn't look like style of dress or weapons used changed that much from 9th century to 11th (minus the shield of course).

http://community.webshots.com/album/92792085NIqMDk/1

Eoric, I've got a question for you. Is their document proof that these people used a padded gambeson, as in the photos above? I've read a few articles where some say it just a linen tunic, that has atleast 3 layers, and some say there was a padded gambeson, padded with horse hair. Others have said they didn't wear a gambeson altogether.

[Matta]

www.hastings1066.com

is the best that i have found for the battle of hastings 1066

Matta

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Winfang> That's Camric's set of pics. He's a Regia member.

Generally, photos of 11th century kit (like outfits appropriate for Battle of Hastings reenactment) would be OK for Forkbeard's movie. The exceptions would be as follows. In the late 9th century...

- There is no evidence for maille coifs
- There were no kite shields
- There were no one-piece conical helmets (like the Wenceslas helmet)
- Helmets could still reflect the older styles (i.e. Coppergate for the English, Gjermundbu for the Scandinavians)
- Evidence suggests that the maille shirt would be shorter than the 11th century version, and wouldn't have riding splits
- I don't believe "Danish axes" (the two-handed broadaxes) existed yet--if they did, it would strictly be a Scandinavian weapon at this point (they weren't adopted by the "Englisc" until the reign of King Canute the Great over a century later)

Many Regia members participate in the big Hastings event in England every year, but as a group there is no official showing due to concerns about loose authenticity rules.

As far as gambesons go, I don't believe there's any evidence for their use by the Scandinavians or English during the Viking Age. It's a much-debated topic, because you'd think they would have used something, and maille is quite effective when layered over padding of some kind (just ask the "Saracens" during the First Crusade). Personally, since there's no evidence for a padded or quilted gambeson per se, I tend to think that they probably just used thick tunics under their maille. I plan on trying to make one out of a few layers of wool and linen.

Matta> That's a great website. I've referred to it many times.

[Winfang]

Well, let Camric know that's his kit is awesome and I would love to get one togther similar to his.

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Forkbeard: Just found this set of kit specs for a Regia show based on 9th century England. Thought it might be useful...

[Barahir Ingem]

Eoric,

I'm looking at the strapping in this shield:



I thought that bossed shields used a center grip. (Otherwise, what's the point of the boss?)

How is this held? It looks like it could be held either with the arm horizontal or vertical. Or maybe I'm seeing it wrong.

I'm working on a tower shield, and I'm wondering if there is a better / more authentic grip than the horizontal strap mount I've always used.

Thanks.

B. of E.U.

[Kyrian]

Barahir,

I'll take a stab at it...although I've never done LH.

It looks as though the strapping is primarily designed for someone to wield the shield with the forearm vertical and the fist pointing skyward---the compression on the top strap along with the signs of wear seem to support that. However, it does look as though the person has tried wielding it with the forearm parallel to the ground (the dirt and smudges on the the right vertical strap).

Also, the shield appears to have a guige (sp?), a strap that allowed the shield to be hung from the shoulder or neck. This was useful while on horseback since the left hand could be used to hold the reins while still having protection for the left side of the body.

If I'm way off, my apologies.

Kyrian

[Barahir Ingem]

That was my guess, too. I'll probably insert two sets of t-nuts, so I can attach the strapping for either option.

B. of E.U.

[Forkbeard]

I built a cool handle for my new Bele sheild. It's going to be a 36" round. It's going to have straps, a punch handle and a shoulder strap. I've been inspired by all this research to use a huge round sheild. I'll try to get some pic's up soon.
FB

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Barahir> That shield is a good example of what some people call "experimental archeology". By that I mean that there are medieval illustrations and tapestries showing a shield strapped that way, so modern folks have strapped their shield in the same manner and then put it to use to see how it works.

My personal guess is that strapping a shield the way it's done in that pic allows you to use the shield with your arm horizontal at some times and horizontal at others--maybe horizontal when on horse, and vertical when on foot? Or vice versa? Mind you, that's just a guess. And as Kyrian said, the long strap is a guige, which seems to be primarily used to carry the shield on your back when marching, using a two-handed weapon (like a Danish axe), etc., and may have been used to secure the shield on your left side while riding.

And yes, the round shields of the "Viking Age" were center-grip and had bosses. The kite shields has bosses, too, at least the earlier ones (late 11th century), yet they are shown with straps. Perhaps the boss was a hold-over from the round shields (from which the kite shield had developed). It also probably did offer more protection for the forearm, and who knows--maybe some kept using them just for the decorative value. It does appear that the bosses on kite shields were probably smaller than those on rounds.

Oh, as far as strapping your own shield: 11th and 12th century illustrations show about a dozen different strap configurations on kite shields. Off the top of my head, I recall the square (as in your pic), a diamond (just like the square but turned 45 degrees), and more typical strapping that was anywhere from horizontal to about 30 degrees from horizontal. I'd say use whatever works for you.

Forkbeard> Let me know what you think after you've fought with your new shield for a while. I used a coffin-shaped shield in Dagorhir/Belegarth for years, and fighting with a center-gripped round really changes things.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Sorry to butt in but I thought you guys may be able to do just some quick direction pointing for me. I have to design costumes for a production of Hamelt and I'm looking to go very period, so roughly circa 1040-1057 (the reign of the actual Macbeth). I'm going to be doing some library research as well, but i figured you guys could give me some good pointers.

Thanks in advance!

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Barahir> OK, I knew there was a good website out there showing different strap configurations on kite shields, but it took me a while to find it. Check it out: click

Alleria> You mentioned both Hamlet and Macbeth. If you're speaking of Danish clothing from that period, I can help. If you're asking about "Scottish" clothing from that period, I know just enough to say "no kilts!" I think that one of the earliest descriptions we have of Scottish clothing is actually in a Norse saga, which describes the male Gaels in Scotland as wearing tunics or kyrtles (very similar to what a Scandinavian or Englishman would be wearing), some kind of mantle, and going bare-legged.

[Ilariia Bulochnika]

Sorry! It's for Macbeth. We were just covering Hamlet in my Dramatic Analysis Class so I have the Danish on the brain. The project is for Macbeth (that Scottish play ;-))

Thanks for the brief info. Too bad, the project wasn't actually on Hamlet.

[Winfang]

I wish I could remember where I read it, but I did read that the Kite shield was introduced to the Vikings during one of their raids around Italy. Is there truth to that?

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

I haven't heard that before, so I have no idea if it's true or not.

[Barahir Ingem]

Thanks for your help. I tried a 30 degree slant when I used this core in a NERO-style LARP, and I found it awkward. I found it very difficult to protect my left knee, which I can see being a problem with the vertical grip. Maybe I'll try both the vertical and horizontal options, anyway. It's only a couple bucks worth of t-nuts.

B. of E.U.

[Forkbeard]

Well ****. They switched it up on me.
Now I'm going to be Welch, the leader of a small band(whoever I can get together) and have lots more lines. Exciting and frustating at the same time.
Is the garb different for Welchmen at this time? The weaponry? Sorry to throw you guys for a loop, but the man said I have to.
Thanks for all your help so far.
Off to do more * reading about peoples pants.
FB

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Welsh, eh? That's too bad--playing either an Englishman or Dane would be more fun for this period, IMHO. Better gear and whatnot...

The main thing I read about the Welsh in this time period is that as a people, they were poor compared to the Saxons and "visiting" Vikings. This means that your typical Welshman was more likely to go shoeless, your typical Welsh warrior was less likely to go into battle armoured, etc.

Beyond that, I don't think there was a whole lot of difference in dress and battle-gear. I've read in more than one place that the Welsh seem to have adopted much of Saxon culture.

It might be worth your time to read these articles, from Regia's website:

http://www.regia.org/history/welsh1.htm
http://www.regia.org/history/celts1.htm
http://www.regia.org/warfare/welswar.htm

Whatever you do, do the world a favor and don't get together a bunch of plaid clothing to show your "Celticness."

[Forkbeard]

Well I met the "accuracy police" for the film. They are a coulpe SCA guys. Predictably, they are SCA-ing it up. The tunics are supposed to be midthigh, not kneew length and the belts are all long and dangly. I told them that according to the sites they referenced me to(the R A sites and the Vikings! NA site) they are doing these things wrong. They just dismissed that and said,"it's supposed to be this way." I told them "it's thier movie, so, whatever, but your still wrong".
They acually are pushing the plaid pants thing, though I'm pretty sure thats not right either. It seems like they got their info second hand rom their SCA freinds. I don't think they actually READ the info on the sites they sent me to.
They said they want the Welchmen to wear mostly earth tone tunics and pants and since I'm kind of in chagre of that set of characters I'm making our **** the right way9long shirts and short belts). It's cool that the Welch were poor, it makes costume making easier.
However this works out, these SCA dudes are making a bunch of period opwn face helms cheap. They are going to sell them after the film is thru. I'm going to try to get Bel peep's a deal on them.
FB

[Eoric of the Riddermark]

Cheap helmets? Man, I would probably ask you to see if you could reserve one for me, but it looks like I'm about to have three open-faced helms...

Anyhow, I have to wonder why these guys referred you to sites that have good info, then want you to ignore it.

And plaid pants are OK, just like a plaid cloak or tunic would be OK. It just gets overused by people trying to portray "Celts," when in reality they used lots of non-plaid fabric, and plaid was used by lots of non-Celts all over Europe.

[Winfang]

That's because you got the information through you "boffer" friends, Forkbeard. They can't be having some boffer guy tell them doing things wrong.

[Forkbeard]

When I tlked to him at first, we were standing in the park and you know how I argue, so I waited. He emailed me and I got the chance to send him all the links that backed me up about the belts and tunics and stuff and he changed his tack right away. This looks like it will be a good acurate picture after all.
FB