Helm Question!

[Squire Horati]

Is there a way to make this helm Bel legal?

[Kensman Bam]

Which helm?

[Squire Horati]

The picture above the question. DUH!

[Syrus]

Penny-round on the edges, 1/2" protrusion on the top, and the facemask won't fly.

[Turin]

3.8. Prohibited Armor:
3.8.1. Rigid Metal knee or elbow Armor (cops).
3.8.2. Rigid Metal full Helmet. Partial Rigid Metal Helmet as well as full Helmet made of any other Armor materials are allowed.

If the face mask was leather, it would work. the neck portion could still be metal.

[Kage]

Well if the mask is indeed leather than the helm will pass, but you will need to watch the edges and the emblem on the top forward part of the helm.

[Skuz Bludgutter]

Osiris,
Why is a protective mask not allowed if it is metal? I am curious, as I wear helmets partly to protect my glasses. Headshots may be "illegal" but accidents do happen. I wear a full leather helm most times, and I am not protesting, just curious.
Skuz

[Syrus]

To start, I think I should quote the pertinent rule for edification of discussion en masse:

3.8. Prohibited Armor:
3.8.2. Rigid Metal full Helmet. Partial Rigid Metal Helmet as well as full
Helmet made of any other Armor materials are allowed.

Now WHY is a more obscure topic. The thought in line is that people who have no reason to fear headshots are more likely to fight recklessly. I am not stating my opinion in any way, just reiterating consensus from previous discussion. For safety issued, I understand wearing a helm to protect your glasses, but for the purposes of the facemask on the helm, if you were to remove the portion protecting your chin (the solid plate area) and possibly the neckguard, you'd be more likely to get it to pass However, the final decision is up to the herald/marshall running the field. Even if it were rectified to no longer be considered a full metal helm, it is still likely to run into problems with:

3.4. Armor may not have protrusions that rise more than ? inch from the surface.

The headfin might fail immediately. If not, then it would assuredly be checked against the weapons template as if it were a striking surface (I've seen this done for armor before, at least.):

1.3.3. Two and one-half inch rule?No surface on a striking edge (sword tip, arrow head, spear head, javelin head, etc.) whether designed for stabbing or not, may pass more than 0.5 inch through a 2.5 inch hole; swords with a semicircular tip, with a minimum 1.5 inch radius are exempt from this rule. See Appendix A, 1.4.4.2.

[kohntre]

aside from it being metal (needs to be done in leather) I dont see why it would be a problem, as all roman style helms have some kind of "rim" to them be it above the eyes as a visor or on top of the head. And Many of these Roman styles grace the field. As for the emblem on the front make a mold and then use a rubber (lose term) to make the piece itself, then just glue it to the surface. make em cheap and enough for when its lost or broken.

[MagnusofDregoth]

I have to say that the rule prohibiting 'full metal helms' is so astonishingly unclear, I can barely believe it's still in the BoW. Is a 'full metal helm' a helm made entirely from metal? I don't think so, as many people, such as Kegg, wear all-metal helms. Is it a helm that covers the entire head and is made from metal, such as this one? I am inclined to believe that this is the case, but it could easily be misinterpreted given the vaqueness of the description, or lack thereof.

What, then, defines a 'partial metal helm'? When does it become a 'full metal helm'? Would this be a legal helm? How about this one? Would this barbute be allowed, or is it too 'full'/not 'partial' enough?

I personally feel that this is a section of the BoW that needs a rewrite, and ideally several illustrations besides. For that matter, given the highly internet-based nature of Belegarth, couldn't the BoW stand to have illustrations for every rule where it could help to clear up the slightest deficiency of understanding?

Just a thought.

[kohntre]

a previous post about helms mentioned that helms could not be full so as to prevent a trip hazard, sticking your foot into the domed head portion I guess. Meanwhile I have seen many Roman style helms that are quite full head with the trip hazard as I understood it. sheesh its a battlefield, everything out there is a trip hazard, we are trip hazards in ourselves.

Maggie is correct in that pics need to be included in all BoW dealings of legal/not legal to avoid further confusion.

[Sir Cairbre]

Yeah just make it out of wax hardened leather.... I think I have a new project for the winter

[Syrus]

I would be inclined to pass all the helms that Magnus set forth as examples, as none of them are a complete enclosure. But I am not your local herald, either.

The BOW is kept terse for brevity.

1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.

Now I would be all for a compilation of foam combat precedent (perhaps on the WIKI pages?). Anyone want to help?

[MagnusofDregoth]

1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged.

I don't see how trying to wear a full helm would be an attempt to gain an advantage. Even a 16ga (not 14ga or 12ga, are are used in the SCA) helm is pretty heavy, especially when compared to a leather helm of similar dimensions, and the only advantage I see is that it would look better and be more realistic.

[kohntre]

a full helm is not a creative interpretation to gain advantage. I still recall it being a case of safety/trip-hazard. tripping over me will be hazardous to you. so that issue of fullhelms is not valid...

dude, make your helm, make sure you can see hear and breath. And remember to NOT head butt anyone on the field, and dont grapple anyone.

by the way Im curious, if its worn on the head, how does one trip over it?
playing leapfrog?

[Syrus]

1.4. Creative interpretation of the rules to gain any advantage is discouraged. These rules are intentionally sparse to allow for ease of use. The Marshal, according to these rules, and medieval foam combat precedent, settles all disputes.

The italicized part was the relevent section of the rule.
This is not an issue of whether or not I think you're trying to make off like a bandit with an unsafe helm (which is not the case), the issue is that PRECEDENT has lain ground rules that say, in effect, that anything that passes SCA heavy combat rules does NOT pass for belegarth. This means that the face guard cannot pass below a certain point (in this case, 1" under the chin is the rule in SCA.)

Here's the guidelines for what to avoid in helms:
http://www.sca.org/officers/marshal/combat/armored/armor_standards.pdf

Again, I'm not advocating the VALIDITY of the rule, only stating how there are issues regarding the helm at the beginning of the post conflicting with the BOW.